Neovite Colostrum – I think I have heard everything now!!!

I’ll bite 😉

The onus is on you to prove what you’re claiming – not on anyone else to disprove it.

I won’t call the number because frankly I don’t really feel the need to do so and probably wouldn’t really gain much from it, not being an expert in the field. If you had proper ‘proof’ that it worked you’d be quoting it wouldn’t you?

That however doesn’t stop me making the cases with regards to why it’s not proven which I don’t think it is (and I’ll make the case again that I’m not saying that it definitly doesn’t work to some extent) and I’m genuinely interested to know why the AIS came to the conclusions I posted if you’re saying that other research disagrees (or is it just that it might disagree?). Also one of the points made by the AIS was that effects that were observed didn’t last which as I read the Aberystwyth University study doesn’t seem to go any way towards disproving since it was run as a one-off.

Finally, the classic ‘well X says it works and they’re a pro athlete’ line which you keep using is the kind of thing that usually makes people sceptical since it proves nothing.

double post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8
watch San bushmen of the Kalahari desert track an antelope until it collapses from heat stroke. It cannot dissipate the heat it is generating and it’s wearing a fur coat. Point made?

It’s that kind of ‘proof’ that makes people believe that you’re selling snake oil I’d suggest…

video schmideo you are dicing with death!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-328863/Milk-linked-ovarian-cancer.html

Milkman – it may be the case that a mammal will die if over heated I can’t see how eating dried up cows milk is going to stop that though?

your argument seems to be;

a) mammals that overheat and die have ‘perforated’ guts
and
b) my product blocks up the perforations
therefore
c) you won’t die of overheating if you’ve consumed my product.

and as per clubber – you’re the one makign the claims, me having a chat with a Prof somewhere isn’t the same as you producing proper evidence of ‘double blind’ clinical tests that prove your point.

My Nan put loads of salt on her food and swore it worked well for her. She lived ’til she was 87 but it doesn’t mean I would if I did the same…

Well, I’ve actually read through all this and my opinion re Colostrum usage hasn’t changed a bit.
I read the artical on the front page with scepticism and nothing here has given any form of logical proof that anything in colostrum is of any use after the first few hours of life, above and beyond it being another form of high energy “drink”.

Milkman – I’m quite shocked that, as a spokespersons for your company, you are so aggressive and dismissive regarding other arguments. Simply supplying more and more anecdotal evidence and goading people into calling you does nothing to support your claims, or enhance the image of your company. Are you really suprised no-one has phoned you?

watch San bushmen of the Kalahari desert track an antelope until it collapses from heat stroke. It cannot dissipate the heat it is generating and it’s wearing a fur coat. Point made?

Classic example I’m afraid – “evidence” that does nothing to support your claims. You’ve successfully proven that animals can collapse of exhaustion!

Not just the Masai, but throughout the world, people have lived by keeping cattle and goats for the last 10,000 years so it’s not that this is something so new like soya beans, let’s say. And if you resort to the Daily Mail for your references it’s a sure sign your on weak ground.

pick up the phone, I can send you the abstract on colostrum, heat stress and permeability that was presented to the British Society of Gastroenterology at their spring conference this year.

Milkman – what’s not clear is why taking your product is somehow better than anything else that we as mountain bikers should choose to take? Will I ride further, faster or just not get a permeable gut?

Why is a diet that nomadic tribes have lived on for 10,000 years because, frankly, they’re nomadic and therefore couldn’t plant crops is of relevance to someone eating a ‘western’ diet is beyond me other than to allow you to say ‘look drink only cows milk and blood and you’ll be fine’?

Not just the Masai, but throughout the world, people have lived by keeping cattle and goats for the last 10,000 years so it’s not that this is something so new like soya beans, let’s say. And if you resort to the Daily Mail for your references it’s a sure sign your on weak ground.

Ok, here’s where I stop reading this thread. You’ve clearly been backed into a bit of a corner and are now spouting random facts that make no sense in relation to your product’s claims. So various nomadic tribes live in hot conditions and live off cattle/goats. Where does that say that powdered colostrum helps their lifestyle or health? They keep cattle that produce colostrum for the first 24-48hrs of lactation………so?

I won’t be buying into your product so……I’m out!

fbk
if you read the scorn and abuse at the beginning of this thread based on no knowledge or experience whatever I’m sure you would want to respond in like vein.

With regard to AIS, I can only speak with confidence on the study results that we get with the product that we supply and the feedback from independent researchers with whom we work directly.

My offer to discuss the current studies or any other matter offline is entirely genuine and you should not feel intimidated by an invitation to call. Those of you who have published their own research know that it cannot be put in the public domain prior to publication.

Well, I’ve actually read through all this and my opinion re Colostrum usage hasn’t changed a bit.
I read the artical on the front page with scepticism and nothing here has given any form of logical proof that anything in colostrum is of any use after the first few hours of life, above and beyond it being another form of high energy “drink”.

Milkman – I’m quite shocked that, as a spokespersons for your company, you are so aggressive and dismissive regarding other arguments. Simply supplying more and more anecdotal evidence and goading people into calling you does nothing to support your claims, or enhance the image of your company. Are you really suprised no-one has phoned you?

Ill go along with that – I was tempted to give you a call but I dont think Im quite smart enough to be able to deal with your scientific marketing spiel. So Ill just run with my gut feeling (pun intended) & I smell a rat..Your style & approach are off, your dismissal of evidence that is contrary, some of your “proof” (most if Im honest) is anecdotal at best & the peach of it was this

One study on exercise induced gut permeability and its prevention has been accepted for peer review by the American Journal of Physiology

offering it up like it was some kind of indisputable proof of its efficacy..Perhaps when the product has been reviewed positively & you have stronger proof then come back? Till then..

ps Im as open-minded as anyone but something about this feels wrong..

bk
if you read the scorn and abuse at the beginning of this thread based on no knowledge or experience whatever I’m sure you would want to respond in like vein.

Ah – this is where you are wrong. a few of us have some knowledge and the ability to read research coupled with a dislike of snake oil

When you claim things as proven by research that the most superficial of readings of that research shows very much to have not been proven you open yourself up to scorn. Couple this with utter nonsense such as the stuff over heatstroke and the using athletes endorsements as “proof” then you weaken your case.

You might have something, you might not, but nothing you have shown us is any sort of proof at all. Some positive indications in the research of slight effects. Some negative.

Damn – I wasn’t going to comment any more!

if you read the scorn and abuse at the beginning of this thread based on no knowledge or experience whatever I’m sure you would want to respond in like vein.

Unfortunately that’s where your main problem lies – I know at least one of the initial posters, I know their profession, and I know they’re in a very good position to make scientific/clinical judgements on such things. I also agree with some of the points made and you have done nothing to support your arguements against them.

Oh, and I also have some knowledge of these matters, all be it fairly limited, coming from a (veterinary) medical background and I make my judgements accordingly.

I see your snake oil objections don’t stop you taking Maximuscle’s money to advertise their Provite colostrum on this site.

Nowt to do with the posters and is that a google ad?

No it’s a paid for advert

It’s gone a bit quiet. I suspect if Maximuscle, your esteemed advertisers, had sent you a tub of their Provite colostrum to review, you would not have started a thread in this tone, commercial suicide.

Milkman – I suggest that you are confusing the owners of the site and the posters on the forum. We have no control of the adverts on the site, the owners of the site have not posted on this thread.

My milkman does potatoes and orange juice AND Christmas Hampers; I think he’s got rather more going for him to be honest.

crikey, I’m sure he “does” more than that – I’ve seen the films

You’ve not seen my milkman….

milkman – don’t confuse a lack of response with any sort of agreement/placation.

Firstly maximuscle advertising, site based or not, has nothing to do with the users of this forum. Secondly, that’s not something most people on here would use, regardless of it’s pros/cons – I suggest you stop trying to divert attention.

And thirdly, it’s evening and people have better things to do than write on here (unless they’re still stuck at work….like me… 🙁 )

….must…..stop….posting……

milkman – don’t confuse a lack of response with any sort of agreement/placation.

Also, adding more and more youtube clips and athlete recommendations does not constitute peer reviewed scientific evidence.

Nothing new is coming to the table and so everyone is BORED of this thread and you have done little to convince people of the benifits of colostrum, but also more importantly, of YOUR brand!

I all honesty, I was on your side Milkman, now I am less sure.

(p.s. This is my personal opinion only)

I suspect he’s not even a real milkman.

crikey

If your enquiry as to my credentials is genuine, I have a background in microbiology, veterinary pathology and food control. I have been an invited speaker on colostrum at an international biotechnology conference for which proceedings are available and I am a co-author of a paper on another functional food that aids gut barrier maintenance, which has been accepted by the British Journal of Nutrition. I have worked in the dairy industry for ten years and collaborate with the UK’s leading independent dairy and functional food researchers.

Milky:

I pity your partner, life must be a riot!

I’ll bite again.

I don’t doubt your credentials however:

1. What does background mean. I have a background in bike mechanics but that doesn’t make me an expert.
2. I AM a veterinary pathologist and have never heard of you before? And my colleague is a Clinical Microbiologist and hasn’t either.
3. You sell colostrum so understandable you are invited to speak about your product. Proceedings don’t really cut the mustard in the academic world really do they? I have had stuff in proceeding booklets before but this has not always been taken further to a proper citable article?
4. Just because you have submitted a paper doesn’t mean it will be accepted.
5. Being an author on a paper would be expected if you had contributed to it in any significant degree? However a persons contribution is difficult to assess from a reviewers point of view no?

My point is bragging about your credentials to people not “in the know” may sound impressive but I am afraid I am not!

IME the people who shout the most, know the least!

My education was for the food industry not clinical or medical practice and dealt with the physiology and pathology of food animals. As a veterinary pathologist you will know that race horses suffer from gut ulceration when raced or trained hard. They have large body masses relative to their surface area and limited ability to sweat and a fur coat. Just like the Kudu in the Attenborough clip. Hence the rise in core temperature. Running horses for distances greater than would be natural for a flight animal induces this. Another case of heatinduced gut cell apoptosis. Race horses can also die suddenly as a result of endotoxemia at the end of a race or in the stable afterwards. I keep trying to find ways to illustrate this point to you. Would you venture an opinion on horses now it’s in your field?

Milkman – teh heat is causing the gut issues not the gut issues causing the heat. So your basic premise is wrong.

You magic stuff no matter what its action cannot and does not cure heatstroke. It treats one symptom of heatstroke perhaps

So, I’m going to die horribly if I don’t consume your product and then ride for a long time and get a bit sweaty?

All types of horses “including race horses suffer from gastric ulceration” – there I corrected it for you 🙄

Another case of heatinduced gut cell apoptosis. Race horses can also die suddenly as a result of endotoxemia at the end of a race or in the stable afterwards.

Oh dear 🙄 you really are cutting and pasting from Wiki arn’t you 😯

Have you references for heat induced enterocyte apoptosis in horses cause by exercise then? Oh and I presume you mean that hyperthermia caused by intense exercise in horses causes significant disease? And that horses that die suddenly after exercise is due to enterotoxaemia induced by exercising? Have you a reference for that as well?

No, the consequence of heat stress is gut cell apoptosis. The consequence of gut cell apoptosis is endotoxemia. Endotoxemia is bacterial toxins, digestive enzymes and part digested food fragments entering the portal circulation, overloading the capacity of the mesentreic lymphatic system and the liver to filter out the toxins and their entry into the systemic circulation where thay can induce organ failure. Dr Tony Ashton investigated this and published some ten years ago. He also explored the use of vitamin c to reduce permeability and toxemia, so it’s not the first time the topic has been researched.

YOu claimed your potion cured heatstroke. It may treat one symptom of heatstroke. Not the same thing

Endotoxemia is bacterial toxins, digestive enzymes and part digested food fragments entering the portal circulation, overloading the capacity of the mesentreic lymphatic system and the liver to filter out the toxins and their entry into the systemic circulation where thay can induce organ failure. Dr Tony Ashton investigated this and published some ten years ago. He also explored the use of vitamin c to reduce permeability and toxemia, so it’s not the first time the topic has been researched.

Absolute rubbish – are you seriously trying to troll me/us – this is garbage!!! Are you really the head of this company or are you infact a Troll as you are very convincing 🙄 You obviously have no biologic science background otherwise you would realise that what you have written is utter utter rubbish!!

And on that note – I’m out – this truly is a topic I DO NOT WANT to discuss any further with you Milkman!!

You obviously have no biologic science background otherwise you would realise that what you have written is utter utter rubbish!!

According to his website he was a manager/owner of a software company, before that a farmhand and has done a course in public health.

A bit more veterinary stuff then and without resorting to insult.

Camels are adapted to high core temperatures of up to 41 celsius without any endotoxemia and without heatstroke. Pretty much any other mammal would die of heatstroke at such a core temperature. Camels secrete heat shock protein in the gut wall to maintain the integrity of the barrier function under these conditions. They also secrete functional proteins in their milk to provide this protection for their young. Your thoughts?

Milkman – I’ll try and say this slowly;

Have
you
conducted
any
blind
tests
that
prove
your
product
enhances
an
athletes
performance
?

Not in Camels, Masii worriers, Cows, Deer or T-rex’s – just human athletes where there is clinical evidence of a proven positive result of using your product vs a placebo?

My thoughts – you are not addressing basic points. You are arguing against folk ( not me) with afar greater understanding of the biochemistry than you have. You are doing your company a great disservice.

Your potion may help the gut stand this issue with heat and toxins – this means it is a treatment for one symptom of heatstroke not a cure for it.

My god, is this still going. I’d have thought you would have the wisdom/dignity to walk away from this one and let it lie.

You really are doing yourself and your product no favours arguing a point that a)you can’t really win and b)is of very little relevance to the actual claims your product makes re exercise & endurance.