You really are doing yourself and your product no favours arguing a point that a)you can’t really win and b)is of very little relevance to the actual claims your product makes re exercise & endurance.

This.

You’ve stumbled into a place where lots of people know lots of things and have very finely tuned bullshit detectors. Your grasp of internet based debate is poor, your grasp of science based debate is even worse, and your attempts at marketing through this medium are dreadful.

Sorry fella, but you’ve really not done your company and your cause any favours at all.

As I began, our studies are into the immune and digestive health of endurance athletes, not their performance. Users, athletes, coaches and physicians who have observed benefits and good results have been willing to go on the record without reward and I’ve brought them to you.

In our studies we are also concerned to measure DNA from gut bacteria in blood serum to determine the extent of endotoxemia, I think you’ll find this is a standard technique. If foxyrider has a different way of measuring endotoxemia or a simpler explanation of its cause, I’d be very interested

To be fair, proving that something works by double-blind trial is difficult and expensive. For new drugs, thousands of patients may have to be recruited for a trial to be sufficiently powered to give a robust, statistically significant result. The functional foods folk are hardly going to do that as the returns don’t justify the outlay.

I wager that these products (holograms, colostrum etc) work for elite athletes because they believe in them and that gives them the edge they think they need. As for me, I’m sticking with my lucky innertubes…

Reduction in heat-induced gastrointestinal hyperpermeability in rats by bovine colostrum and goat milk powders.
Prosser C, Stelwagen K, Cummins R, Guerin P, Gill N, Milne C.

AgResearch Ruakura, 2001 Hamilton, New Zealand. colin.prosser@agresearch.co.nz

Abstract
Male Sprague-Dawley rats were assigned to one of three dietary groups [standard diet (Cont; n = 8), standard diet plus bovine colostrum powder (BColost 1.7 g/kg; n = 8), or goat milk powder (GMilk 1.7 g/kg; n = 8)] to determine the ability of these supplements to reduce gastrointestinal hyperpermeability induced by heat. Raising core body temperature of rats to 41.5 degrees C increased transfer of (51)Cr-EDTA from gut into blood 34-fold relative to the ambient temperature value (P < 0.05) in the Cont group of rats, indicative of increased gastrointestinal permeability. Significantly less (P < 0.01) (51)Cr-EDTA was transferred into the blood of rats in either the BColost (27% of Cont) or GMilk group (10% of Cont) after heating, showing that prior supplementation with either bovine colostrum or goat milk powder significantly reduced the impact of heat stress on gastrointestinal permeability. The changes in the BColost group were not significantly different than those of the GMilk group. The potential mechanism of the protective effect of bovine colostrum and goat milk powders may involve modulation of tight junction permeability, because both powders were able to maintain transepithelial resistance in Madin Darby canine kidney cells challenged with EGTA compared with cells maintained in media only. The results show that bovine colostrum powder can partially alleviate the effects of hyperthermia on gastrointestinal permeability in the intact animal.

So now you’re being nasty to rats….

Milkman – Member

heatstroke is the result of gut leakiness when poisons (enterotoxins) enter the bloodstream. enterotoxins can lead to organ failure and heart attack and can trigger autoimmune disorders.

Milkman – Member

Heat leads to gut permeability. Permeability can lead to toxic shock from enterotoxins. Exercise at high aerobic levels leads to a rise in core temperature even at moderate ambient temperatures

You product may be able to treat ( not cure) this “gut permeability” However heatstroke is rather more than gut permeability is it not and your nostrum cannot do anything to remove the root cause – the overheating of the body core. Only cooling down the body can do that.

and a bit more science then

Stress-induced gastrointestinal barrier dysfunction and its inflammatory effects1
G. P. Lambert2
Department of Exercise Science, Creighton University, Omaha, NE 68178

Abstract

The intestinal barrier is formed by enterocyte membranes, tight junctions, secreted mucus, and immunologic factors, such as tissue macrophages. Dysfunction of this barrier can be caused by different types of stress (e.g., physiological, pathological, psychological, pharmacological) and can lead to increased intestinal permeability. Increased permeability to endotoxin, a component of the walls of gram-negative bacteria, causes local or systemic inflammatory reactions, or both. The immune response(s) can then promote more serious conditions. Exertional heat stroke is an example of such a condition. During severe exercise-heat stress, possibly combined with other stresses, reductions in intestinal blood flow, direct thermal damage to the intestinal mucosa, or both, can cause intestinal barrier disruption and endotoxemia. The resulting inflammatory response is believed to be involved in altered thermoregulation and multiple-organ dysfunction. Possible means for preventing or attenuating, or both, many stress-induced intestinal barrier problems include environmental, pharmaceutical, or nutritional approaches, or a combination of these.

INTRODUCTION

Several stresses affect the integrity of the intestinal barrier. Included among these are psychological stress (Soderholm and Perdue, 2001), prolonged strenuous exercise (Pals et al., 1997; Lambert et al., 1999), and heat stress (Lambert et al., 2002; Prosser et al., 2004; Singleton and Wischmeyer, 2006). Furthermore, certain drugs, such as nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, are well-known to damage the gastrointestinal (GI) mucosa (Bjarnason et al., 1986). The intestinal barrier is formed by the enterocyte membranes and tight junctions between enterocytes in the intestinal epithelium. In addition, factors such as mucus and tissue macrophages contribute to the barrier to restrict unwanted substances from entering the internal environment. Such substances include food antigens, bile, hydrolytic enzymes, and endotoxin (i.e., lipopolysaccharide, LPS). Loss of intestinal barrier integrity (i.e., intestinal barrier dysfunction) leads to increased intestinal permeability. Intestinal permeability is defined as the nonmediated diffusion of large (i.e., molecular weight >150 Da), normally restricted molecules from the intestinal lumen to the blood. A low level of permeability is always present, but a properly functioning immune system normally is able to keep pathogens from causing harm. However, increased permeability can result in harmful local and systemic inflammatory reactions. In humans, this situation is commonly referred to as leaky gut syndrome. The intent of this brief review is to bring attention to the causes and consequences of stress-induced intestinal barrier dysfunction. Severe physical exertion and heat stress will be highlighted as a particularly damaging stresses to the intestinal barrier. Potential interventions that can possibly reduce intestinal permeability caused by such stresses will also be examined.

Thanks for the references BUT the Journal, year, volume and page numbers are missing.

Take home for lightly roasted rats – goats milk works just as well and is cheaper – is that right…?

Right, I’m off to found a company selling goat powder based on that research then. I’ve learnt some good selling tips on this thread… 😉

In particular, attempts at selective gut decontamination, the use of pre- or probiotics, alterations in preoperative antibiotic prophylaxis and mechanical bowel preparation have not translated into benefits to patient care with particular regard to septic morbidity. Bacterial translocation remains a fascinating epiphenomenon to those with an interest in the metabolic care of the critically ill surgical patient. It is not, as yet, a reason to change clinical practice.

http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/content/71/1/1.full

Now go away before I get really lactose intolerant.

reference
J. Anim Sci. 2009. 87:E101-E108. doi:10.2527/jas.2008-1339
© 2009 American Society of Animal Science

Goats milk and colostrum powder work out about the same cost per day, around 50 pence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1760153/pdf/v048p00435.pdf

Potential benefits and hazards of physical activity and exercise
on the gastrointestinal tract.

Please click on the link for the research review

Goat milk sounds more exotic though. I’m going to be RICH!

Shall we continue?

Milkman – Member

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1760153/pdf/v048p00435.pdf

Potential benefits and hazards of physical activity and exercise
on the gastrointestinal tract.

Is about exercise giving you gut problems. No mention of your nostrum

Then you’ll either have to call me to discuss our study results offline or we’ll await publication, won’t we, but do you now understand the physiology and consequences of exercise induced heat stress?

But you’re flogging a milk industry waste product in a snake oil style, and not in the business of treating anyone other than rats for heat stress.

Fail.

ahh, this is what makes this forum different from southerndownhill isn’t it? 😆 What a monster thread, I will follow with genuine curiosity.

physiology and consequences of exercise induced heat stress

Seen the weather outside? No danger of any of that on tonight’s ride.

here’s another piece of the puzzle for you, another fortune for clubber to make in the vitamin c market

Free Radic Biol Med. 2003 Aug 1;35(3):284-91.

Exercise-induced endotoxemia: the effect of ascorbic acid supplementation.
Ashton T, Young IS, Davison GW, Rowlands CC, McEneny J, Van Blerk C, Jones E, Peters JR, Jackson SK.

Department of Sport Science, De Montfort University, Lansdowne Road, Bedford, England, UK. tashton@dmu.ac.uk

Abstract
Strenuous, long-duration aerobic exercise results in endotoxemia due to increased plasma levels of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) leading to cytokine release, oxidative stress, and altered gastrointestinal function. However, the effect of short-term strenuous aerobic exercise either with or without antioxidant supplementation on exercise-induced endotoxemia is unknown. A significant increase in the concentration of bacterial LPS (endotoxin) was noted in the venous circulation of healthy volunteers following maximal acute aerobic exercise (0.14(-1) pre-exercise vs. 0.24(-1) postexercise, p <0.01). Plasma nitrite concentration also increased with exercise (0.09 +/- 0.05 nM x ml(-1) vs. 0.14 +/- 0.01 nM x ml(-1), p <0.05) as did ascorbate free radical levels (0.02 +/- 0.001 vs. 0.03 +/- 0.002 arbitrary units, p <0.05). Oral ascorbic acid supplementation (1000 mg) significantly increased plasma ascorbic acid concentration (29.45 mM x l(-1) to 121.22 mM x l(-1), p <0.05), and was associated with a decrease in plasma LPS and nitrite concentration before and after exercise (LPS: 0.01(-1); nitrite: 0.02 +/- 0.02 nM x ml(-1) vs. 0.02 +/- 0.03 nM x ml(-1)). Ascorbic acid supplementation led to a significant increase in ascorbate free radical levels both before (0.04 +/- 0.01 arbitrary units) and after exercise (0.06 +/- 0.02 arbitrary units, p <0.05). In conclusion, strenuous short-term aerobic exercise results in significant increases in plasma LPS levels (endotoxemia) together with increases in markers of oxidative stress. Supplementation with ascorbic acid, however, abolished the increase in LPS and nitrite but led to a significant increase in the ascorbate radical in plasma. The amelioration of exercise-induced endotoxemia by antioxidant pretreatment implies that it is a free radical-mediated process while the use of the ascorbate radical as a marker of oxidative stress in supplemented systems is limited.

PMID: 12885590 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

got to go to milk my cows for the next couple of days but the number is still good if you’re ready to chat offline without resort to childish insults. back on Friday (correction to earlier posting – we want to look for bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS) not DNA as a marker for endotoxins. Perhaps you know someone who can help)

This, in combination with a hologram wristband, could invoke that baddy from Harry Potter, there would be so much magic in the air.

Two pints of semi-skimmed and one double cream please.

what a load of old b****x, in my time I’ve worked and trained with some world class athletes (not cycling) and none of them would attribute their success to cow colostrum- genetics first and foremost, training second, vision and mental attributes next. All a bit of snake oil peddling if you ask me- Steve Peat’s favourite supplements are Stella Artois and curry (info courtesy of his blog).Says it all in my book!

Milkman’s digging a bigger hole for himself!

[Edit]Damn that photo thing didnt work. This science thing is just beyond me!

I can see where everybody is coming from with their objections (and that is fair enough) but forget about Milkman for a moment (although he is being much nicer now- I think he just got overly defensive at the beginning)-

anyway, many of you are now being unfair to the scientists and their work- some of them conduct research as their job- why not just read the articles for yourselves and make your own decisions (without resorting to insults)? Somebody was asking about controlled trials earlier- if you do a literature search (try PubMed, or even Google Scholar, and type “colostrum and exercise” as your search terms) on the topic you will see that most of the published research studies were in fact placebo controlled double blind trials (so they cannot be biased). Also, if you just read the Abstract then you will miss a lot of important information- you need to read the full articles.

Bulter 88, joined forum 26th October…posted in one topic only so far… fancy that….

MicArms – Member

Bulter 88, joined forum 26th October…posted in one topic only so far… fancy that….

True- but this is just my opinion anyway (and all I am saying is make your own mind up). You don’t have to if you don’t want to but it is what I think!

butler -= the point is that all the research Milkman quoted (that I could be bothered to read) does not show what he claimed it did.

The particular bit I looked at was his outlandish claim to cure heatstroke. Lots of research showing exercise and rise in body core temp causes gut issues. Nothing about his nostrum doing anything about this and anyway it would be a treatment for one symptom of heatstroke.

To say as he did that gut issues cause heatstroke is just absurd.

I suggest you drop it

Point taken on what you say about heatstroke vs one symptom TandemJeremy

Re: “I drop it”- all I was suggesting is that people read the information or research studies and make their own mind up. I don’t think we need to get into an argument- you have clearly read the necessary information and made you own mind up… no?

Rocky Robin – Member

Steve Peat’s favourite supplements are Stella Artois and curry (info courtesy of his blog).Says it all in my book!

🙂 apparently curry is good for you

Another shill.

I think its time the mods too action against them.

Wow..just spent 15 minutes of post-apprentice time reading through this….don’t know what to say…pass the red wine Mrs Rock, I’m sure it thins the blood!

Shill- no no no TJ

Thought it would be nice to chip in on the debate but think I’ll just keep my opinions to myself in future

(can’t believe this is still going on btw)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Please forgive me 🙂

?

For starting this thread 😉

butler – your first post on this thread and you are the third person to join to post on this thread. forgive me for being a tad suspicious

OK- fair point TJ- well I’m certainly not a shill and I’m not pushing or floggind anything- hopefully you’ll see that for yourself in time?

Butler88 – Hmm – are you a sports physiology researcher or similar by any chance?

No (I’m a student), but I have been a subject in those sort of studies before (not with colostrum, but with sports drinks etc).

tbh, you’d have to be pretty naieve (sp?) to think that getting your mates to pile into a thread on here and lend support would result in success.

(really wasn’t going to post again):

TJ (et al) – don’t just pick on colostrum (and its purveyor) – As I asked (a lifetime ago), when are you planning on “proving” with some proper trial refs that THG etc (even epo) improve top athletes’ performance (better still, endurance athletes) ? No surrogate markers or extrapolation – actual performance gains.

or is your argument, by extension, that they’re ineffective snake oil – in which case why bother with all the testing etc ?