My previous thread was apparently premature…..

Don’t I look a twit now

And now a very stealth boasting first world problem.

So, my request for part time working went in two months ago when we knew MrsMC would be going full time, and having correctly guessed that management and HR would never get their acts together to give me an answer in time, I started the great part time husband experiment on Monday using leave I’d saved up specially for the occasion.

Yesterday I was pulled into a meeting by my boss and told that my request had been turned down. Partly on business grounds – we are short staffed and recruiting – and partly as he feels that my development in the role will be hindered by taking school holidays off.

So I’m rather up a tributary without a means of propulsion. I/we don’t want to be both working full time as we don’t need the money, or costs of childcare,but I don’t want to not be earning something. Swapping to part time/term time was only intended to be while the kids were small, and keeping the job/pension ticking over in the meantime seemed ideal.

Have enough leave saved to get us through to the New Year on a 3 day week, but I’d have to give a months notice next Thursday if I were to decide to just walk.

Another team member is on a similar work pattern and has actually just reduced her hours. Occupational health supported my application as HR wanted to involve them after my time off with depression earlier in the year. So I guess I’ll have to have a chat with the union rep this morning and see what my options might be.

Right, that’s rambled on for long enough, maybe I will now manage to get an hours sleep before I have to get up and go to work!

we are short staffed and recruiting – and partly as he feels that my development in the role will be hindered by taking school holidays off.

So you we planning on doing 3 days/week and taking about 12 weeks off???

Sounds like reasonable grounds to turn that down, can you not just do the 3 day week? I worked with a couple of guys who tried to take school hols off, from a business point of view it was a massive pain as work just ground to a halt.

If you want to be proactive how about suggesting trialling working some of the time you are at home, being on call/available etc.

Either that or time to find some casual work…

I agree that the business need is a fair point.

However, another colleague already does it, and as she in a different county our school holidays are always one week different, so rarely a a big overlap. None of the rest of the team have kids so don’t take leave in school holidays anyway. And several other mums are on similar terms around the unit already. It’s not unprecedented and it does work.

Impossible to work from home at the moment. Our IT can’t cope with it at the moment, even if we had the space to fit the supposedly required furniture in the secure room I’m supposed to need 🙄

Casual work is looking like it will be the only option.

I doubt that it’s a matter that the union can influence, so maybe get advice but not an intervention??
When I went P/T the planets happened to be aligned and I could be flexible about when I took my weeks off, good luck

If you have the balls you could just resign. In a nice way and explaining why given childcare arrangements. You may find they arenwilling to keep you on on your terms or offer you a new part time contract, or they may not 😉

I can see why they’d turn it down. However, I can’t see why you working three days a week isn’t preferable to them than you working zero days a week.

If you don’t need the money but just want to earn ‘something,’ there’s plenty of other workplaces you could go and do that I’d have thought? So perhaps tell them that you can’t work full time and that you’re going to be forced to resign next week if they don’t agree, then see what they do?

Quit. You’ll either suddenly find your current employer more accommodating or you end up with even more time with your family. Win win. On a more serious note can you do what you do as a freelancer? More flexible hours, chance for home working and it sounds like not being able to find a lot of work won’t be a big issue.

Cheers Cougar – thats what i was thinking. Especially as I’ve been nominated for a bonus for my attitude and effort despite having 3 weeks off with anxiety and depression, suggests they don’t want rid of me. I’m not sure how easy it will be to find a job which would give me the child friendly solution I would like if I quit though

Certainly don’t want to do 5 days a week – kids are at different schools so having 12 different inset days to cover this school year! Also don’t want to give up the school holidays – sharing those between us the last 2-3 years has meant we only get one complete week a year as a family.

Considering offering 4×6 hour days as a compromise, but any more than that and child care and travel time make the whole thing exactly the logistical nightmare we are trying to avoid.

And yes, I know how lucky I am to be in this unpleasant position compared to a lot of people.

Nickjb – I’m a niche civil servant these days, my previous management/change/project skills are 15 years out of date and no worth to anyone.

Though I could tell the wife I’m freelance if I don’t do the housework!

IME, finding a job is easy, finding a job you’d want to do is the difficult bit.

Nick’s idea is a good one – could you become a contractor maybe?

Hey, does your current employer take contractors on? After you leave, offer to contract for them, at half your hours and double your salary. 😈

Quit – I need a riding buddy

Are there jobshare possibilities in your work?

another colleague already does it, and as she in a different county our school holidays are always one week different, so rarely a a big overlap. None of the rest of the team have kids so don’t take leave in school holidays anyway. And several other mums are on similar terms around the unit already. It’s not unprecedented and it does work.

There’s your magic words

grievance procedure against the decision, stressing the above, and that you feel you are being treated differently on account of being make, given that your colleague, plus the others female examples , are permitted. (Though I suspect that if it was private sector rather than CS, then such a tactic could end up with you posting a ‘performance management or compromise agreement’ thread soon)

There’s your magic words

Only means they have to consider it, they did and it’s not feasible to have another member of staff part time.

Drac, they would have to consider it either way – if you can demonstrate that other people were allowed, then it’s a lot harder for them to justify.

Ninfan – that the route I am pondering if it comes to it.

Andyfla – might take me a few years of part time work to be able to keep up with you.

It’s not harder at all. Having too many staff causes the employer issues is all they need to say.

Feel sorry for you Morecash but at times it’s just not possible or feasible for an employer to accept a request.

I understand that Drac. Just a little peeved that they drew the line on any more part timers with me, and not sure I really understand why.

they have to explain why it would be impossible for the business to do what you have requested

]When they have allowed other people [ one hopes of a similar level] and declined yours then you have a case

When they have done this and the genders are different you have a very very interesting case that any HR team would be very very nervous about as you could easily claim sexism here

Given the rest of the company agreed I am intrested to how they will explain that without you the company cannot function

Whilst they do have to consider it they can only refuse it on certain grounds

Ask for this to be written and stated explicitly from them- your development is neither here nor there as they are not one of the reasons they can decline the request.

but at times it’s just not possible or feasible for an employer to accept a request.

Its very limited and we cannot be bothered as we have enough PT workers is not one of them. Again if only females are accepted and NO males HR will be very nervous about this decision

Reasons for rejecting

Employers can reject an application for any of the following reasons:

*extra costs that will damage the business
*the work can’t be reorganised among other staff
*people can’t be recruited to do the work
*flexible working will affect quality and performance
*the business won’t be able to meet customer demand
*there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times
*the business is planning changes to the workforce

They need to use one of these reasons

Child friendly hours for jobs are more difficult to find than people are making out. I have been a full time house husband for 18 months (twins childcare costs were just over £2200 a month plus older childs after school club on top of that equalled far more than i earn). I had to give up working but hoping to go back next year so have kept an eye on the market and very little about but obviously this is skill dependant. I couldnt even find a local job as a shelf stacker which i thought would be easy to find as they were plenty in my youth.

Cheers JY. They have found a form of words that hasn’t rejected the application but indicated that it is up to me to accommodate them.

Union rep has been on the Bat Phone to union head office to check grounds for sex discrimination and/or constructive dismissal. Hopefully HR will put pressure on my boss to be more accommodating.

Then I just have the carry on working with him.

any HR team would be very very nervous about

My thoughts exactly, could be quite a newsworthy case if it went to a tribunal for constructive dismissal.

You may need to see if they’ll call your bluff if you threaten to quit. Because that would cut away any possible grounds they have for refusing you the same terms other people have – if they can cope with having people on those terms, then they’re clearly better off having you on them than not having you at all. If they still refuse and you quit ISTM that would give you a very strong case for constructive dismissal on the grounds of gender discrimination.

*extra costs that will damage the business
*the work can’t be reorganised among other staff
*people can’t be recruited to do the work
*flexible working will affect quality and performance
*the business won’t be able to meet customer demand
*there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times
*the business is planning changes to the workforce

Thanks for confirming my response as I never mentioned they can’t be bothered, you made that bit up.

we are short staffed and recruiting

They’ll be even shorter staffed without you.

See how their attitude changes once you’ve handed in your notice. And if it doesn’t get sorted by the time you leave, then I’m sure there’ll be a contractor out there, already familiar with the organisation, team and work, who’s available to fill in on a 3 day a week basis.

Surely sexual discrimination. (As has probably been pointed out several times but I’ve only quickly skimmed it coz I’ve got to go to work in a minute 🙁 )

Thanks for confirming my response as I never mentioned they can’t be bothered, you made that bit up.

They cannot reject the appeal because they have “too many staff – its not one of the reasons mentioned so how was I agreeing with you and why do you think I was ?

At least the OP found it useful even if you did not.

*extra costs that will damage the business
*the work can’t be reorganised among other staff
*people can’t be recruited to do the work
*flexible working will affect quality and performance
*the business won’t be able to meet customer demand

Too many part time staff causes exactly those issue. It wasn’t hard to work that out.

You really want to argue “too many staff” means you cannot recruit nor organise things easily, really you want to argue this ?
PT staff are also cheaper as they reduce NI costs to the employer.
Flexible working – they already do that so that horse has bolted and PT is irrelevant
As for customer demand it will be hard to argue his position changing ALONE will affect this but either way its not about PT work.

Can we at least agree we disagree and move on?

If you fancy a career change, have you considered classroom assisstant? You’ll get the school hols, no take home work.

Maybe look at a parental leave option, 18 weeks unpaid per child until they are 18… Could be part of a helpful compromise.

Can we at least agree we disagree and move on?

I think we are misunderstanding one another. For example you picking up on too many staff, it’s the lack of full time staff is the issue. 😀

Yep with drac here, too many part time staff could mean all of the above it could be that they feel they cocked up with the others a day were too generous.
Part time staff may be cheaper but not if you need more of them to cover the work.
Being a niche civil servant may mean it’s very hard to find someone to fill the hours you don’t want to work.
Give hr a few hours in a locked room and I’m sure they will come up with something. Perhaps rather than going do or die go for a compromise.

And too add I left the world of full time to go freelance, I get more time off but there are times its much less flexible than a nice government job, you need to work when there is work unless you are very desirable

Give hr a few hours in a locked room and I’m sure they will come up with something. Perhaps rather than going do or die go for a compromise.

This.

Send Mrs Cash in – if she has the same effect on them as she does on me the whole thing will be sorted in about 5 mins 😉

Andyfla – you’d better hope she never reads this. Though I suspect she revels in that kind of recognition.

I like living on the edge

Just been verbally told my part time application is being refused, as the business can’t cope without me for 13 weeks a year. Written confirmation will be done when they get round to it but before the end of the month when the legal deadline for a decision is due.

Bugger.