my neighbour is throwing stuff over my fence?

Is this the final straw? – forget the UN peacekeepers – it’s gone beyond that now in my opinion

ibttil

He said the Israeli army had been formally given the co-ordinates of the shelter in Beit Hanoun.

So the use of precision weapons in this particular case is clearly a war crime.

It’s interesting to note that if it is proven that the Ukraine rebels were responsible for downing a civilian airline it is extremely unlikely that it will accepted as a satisfactory explanation if they claim that unfortunately civilians in war zones sometimes become unintended casualties.

So Ukraine rebels can accidentally target civilians in a war zone and it is a crime, but on the other hand Israelis can quite intentionally target civilians and it has no consequences for them at all. I guess that at the end of the day the only thing which matters is whether the US government supports you or not.

And make no mistake, Israel does intentionally target civilians. Israel prides itself in having some of the most advanced and precise weaponry in the world.

In fact Israel castigates Hamas for using weapons which are indiscriminate and not aimed at precise targets, claiming that they would never do such a thing themselves.

And the purpose of targeting civilians ? Well it goes back to the motive of “collective punishment”. To collectively punish a civilian population is a straightforward terrorist tactic, the aim is that the civilian population becomes so appalled, miserable, horrified, and scared, that they eventually stop supporting their government.

The eventual aim is to stop popular support for the Hamas government, it’s punishment for voting in such a way that displeases the zionists in Isreal. The IDF should be seen as a terrorist organisation because that it precisely what it is – an organisation which uses terror tactics against civilians.

Although the IDF’s terror tactics are actually counterproductive and invariably result in increased support for Hamas. Understandably Palestinians just end up hating Israel and the zionists even more.

Time for the UN to get things sorted out…

*nails fog to the wall*

Once things get polarized nothing can help. Just kill your enemies and wait 20 years for peace and reconciliation seems to be the mantra.

Although it seems to have been going on a bit longer than that and shows little sign of calming down.

I’ve been following the gaza situation mostly on twitter and some of the descriptions and photos are just sickening, there was a tweet to a video Here where a young university student showed Obama for what he really is, an apologist for Israel.

Dan Rivers from ITV is also someone worth following on twitter.

absolutely gob-smacked at the sheer arrogance of Mark Regev…but again what did i expect…he, like the rest of his Israeli political party are completely bereft of any human and moral decency.

the look of disgust on Emily Maitlis’s says it all really…

Yeah i’ve looked at the newsnight interview on iPlayer – she tries to hide her disgust but it’s plain to see, i know the Journalists/reporting has to be fair and impartial to both sides but with our politicians doing **** all i guess it’s fair game for the reporters to show their feelings.

I still don’t understand how the ‘warnings’ of incoming bombings from Israel work.

They phone up/leaflet/go door to door/shout over a megaphone to say “we’re coming back in 2 hours and we’re going to bomb this school/house/factory/rocket launchpad/whatever” so you’d all better evacuate.

But (in the case of somewhere like the UN compound) where are the people sheltering there supposed to go? Will they suddenly be safer if they believe the people who’ve been bombing everything else for the past week and they leave the protection of the UN? Would you choose to leave?!

And why are they delivering warnings anyway. If they can walk up and say “we’re coming back to bomb you later” then 1: won’t the bad guys leave, taking their weapons with them in between the warning and the bombing? So all you end up doing is punishing the civilians left behind? and 2: If they’re able to deliver a warning (unless they’re leaflets dropped by plane, they might be, I don’t know) then how many enemy fighters are really there?

It all feels a lot like it’s just demolition. The prewarned bombings aren’t going to kill any fighters, they’re just going to kill people who have nowhere else to go. And yet the warnings are cited as an example of Israel’s commitment to protecting civilians. It’s like me saying “I’m coming back tonight to burn your house down” and expecting an impartial observer to say “hey bails, that’s really good of you”.

In the past 16 days of fighting, 797 Palestinians and 33 Israelis have been killed

F*** me, makes the downing of that plane look like nothing. I really don’t understand how we are just sitting back and letting this happen 🙁

Israel is a terrorist state, no doubt about it. I’m genuinely ashamed of our government, past and current, for standing idly by and allowing this to happen.

what gets me is the way Mark Regev goes on about the Israeli policy of not targeting civilians and wanting to avoid civilian casualties and then saying that the civilian casualties are the fault of Hamas….he’s obviously told himself that so many time that he actually believes it

he also does a good backtrack on the school attack by saying that they did issue an evacuation warning but “he cant be sure that the school was hit by the IDF”
if the IDF didnt then who did…Hamas? somehow i cant see that the IDF would call on behalf of Hamas to tell the Palestinians to flee because Hamas were about to bomb their own people…

the pre warning is just a ruse to make it look like they are giving people a chance to flee..
in the case of the UN school…the school claim they requested a cease fire so that they could safely evacuate the school but the IDF refused this request
the IDF now claim that they gave a 4 hour window but the evacuation was stopped by Hamas militants
given that one side is blatantly killing women and children and then saying that it is not their policy to target civilians…i know whose side of the story i’d rather believe

plus how much time elapses between the warning and the actual shelling?
the IDF claim they are given plenty of time…in some cases a few hours
the palestinians say they are given a few minutes at most
i’ve seen a video where they were given 57 seconds…the family in that instance never made it out as they were hit while trying to get an elderly member of the family out

In the past 16 days of fighting, 797 Palestinians and 33 Israelis have been killed
F*** me, makes the downing of that plane look like nothing. I really don’t understand how we are just sitting back and letting this happen

Reads almost like ethnic cleansing …. Round them all up into smaller and smaller places then blow them up

ethnic cleansing

There’s another word for that. It’s not often I agree with Ernie, but I do here.

Israel is a terrorist state, no doubt about it. I’m genuinely ashamed of our government, past and current, for standing idly by supporting Israel and allowing this to happen.

Nothing will stop Israel until the despicable shits in power in the UK and USA stop encouraging them, so that’s never then…

There’s another word for that. It’s not often I agree with Ernie, but I do here.

genocide…thats what it is

there are ministers who serve on the Knesset such as Ayelet Shaked who openly encourage this by saying:

“Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

and then you have Mordechai Keder, an Israeli academic who, in a recent interview said:

“Terrorists like those who kidnapped the children and killed them — the only thing that deters them is if they know that their sister or their mother will be raped in the event that they are caught. What can you do, that’s the culture in which we live.”
Host Yossi Hadar pointed out Israel could not “take such steps.”
“I’m not talking about what we should or shouldn’t do,” Kedar insisted. “I’m talking about the facts. The only thing that deters a suicide bomber is the knowledge that if he pulls the trigger or blows himself up, his sister will be raped.”
“That’s all. That’s the only thing that will bring him back home, in order to preserve his sister’s honor.”

Would like to hear your comment on this Gonzy:

SECRETARY-GENERAL, OUTRAGED AT ROCKETS FOUND IN UNITED NATIONS-ADMINISTERED SCHOOL

IN GAZA, DIRECTS FULL REVIEW, SWIFT IMPLEMENTATION OF SECURITY PLAN

The following statement was issued today by the Spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:

The Secretary-General is alarmed to hear that rockets were placed in an UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) school in Gaza and that subsequently these have gone missing. He expresses his outrage, and regret, at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school. By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.

The Secretary-General notes that this is inconsistent with UN Security Council resolution 1860 (2009), which calls for the prevention of arms smuggling. He demands that militant groups, who are responsible, must stop such actions and should be held accountable for endangering the lives of civilians in this manner.

The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again. To this end, the Secretary-General has directed the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) and the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) to immediately develop and implement an effective security plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered in United Nations premises. Further, he has directed UNMAS to immediately deploy personnel with expertise to deal with this situation.

The Secretary-General calls on all of those who have any influence over militant groups to send an unmistakable message that this is unacceptable.

Finally, the Secretary-General expresses his full support for the tremendous work of the staff of UNRWA, who continue to operate under deeply challenging circumstances.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2014/sgsm16045.doc.htm

Nothing will stop Israel until the despicable shits in power in the UK and USA stop encouraging them, so that’s never then…

Yet time after time, election after election we keep voting the same despicable shits into power. We are collectively to blame for that.

After voting these shits into power how many people even bother to go see their local MP during their elected term? Seldom do, mostly for personal issues at that, we get the representation we deserve.

So the use of precision weapons in this particular case is clearly a war crime.

@gonzy There seem to be claims and counterclaims of the building being hit either by tank shells or by Hamas Rockets. I don’t see any claims that the building was hit by GPS guided weapons. There is also the fact that in conflict situations you don’t always hit the target you where aiming at.

I am somewhat surprised any civilians had remained in that area, likewise the UN. It’s in the part of Gaza at the centre of the fighting.

As an aside who’s side are you on with regard to ISIS and the Iraqi government ? I strongly suspect there are have been far more than 1,000 civilian casualties in that war. There must be many many 1000’s or Iraqi’s killed by suicide bombs in the past 10 years

Yet time after time, election after election we keep voting the same despicable shits into power.

@rene – maybe the politicians have seen something or taken facts into account you are not aware of ? I cannot see the UK or US Government supporting a terrorist organisation like Hamas. Aside from that being the wrong thing to do it would be electoral suicide.

@ Jambalaya – Clearly I’m not expert, and I’m working on the basis that none of us really are, but Gaza is really quite small, that being the case, is there a part of Gaza now that isn’t “at the centre of the fighting”?

If that’s not the case then where can people go to?

Not encouraging Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas. Not even close.

@ninfan…was that statement from Ban Ki Moon in reference to the school that was hit yesterday or another school in Gaza?
if it was the case why coulldnt the IDF simply go in with its ground forces and take over the site and locate the weapons?
no instead they took the cowards route of hitting it with shells/rockets knowing that the UN is too spineless to openly condemn the Israeli brutality

this was late relaesed by Ban ki Moon:

The following statement was issued today by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:

I am appalled by the news of an attack on an UNRWA [United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East] school in Northern Gaza where hundreds of people had taken refuge.

Many have been killed — including women and children, as well as UN staff.

Circumstances are still unclear. I strongly condemn this act.

Throughout the day, our staff had been attempting to arrange a humanitarian pause in the hostilities so that civilians could be evacuated.

I express my profound condolences to the families of the victims and those of so many hundreds of innocent Gazans who have tragically been killed as a result of the massive Israeli assault.

When I briefed the Security Council from Ramallah just two days ago, I condemned Hamas rocket fire and called on Israel to exercise particular care to avoid any attack on United Nations premises where civilians have taken refuge. More than 100,000 Gazans — that’s 5 per cent of the total population — have sought refuge in UNRWA facilities.

I once again stress to all sides that they must abide by their obligations under international humanitarian law to respect the sanctity of civilian life, the inviolability of UN premises and to honour their obligations to humanitarian workers.

Today’s attack underscores the imperative for the killing to stop — and to stop now.

From here I will continue to work with international and regional partners to help reach an agreement to end the fighting as soon as possible for the people of Gaza and Israel.
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2014/sgsm16046.doc.htm

evidence that the UN is too scared to openly pin the blame on the IDF for destroying one of its school and killing 15 civilians in the process

Mark Regev all but admits to the IDF sending the school a warning of the attack but stops short of admitting to the actual attack so he can try to shift the blame onto Hamas…

1,200 killed in Iraq since the start of July, farmers, women, kids, imam’s. 8,000 civilians killed so far this year. I’m not making light of the situation in Gaza but civilians are being killed in conflicts everywhere and the ISIS forces are well armed.

link[/url]

@Notter -the ground assault is focused on that top/right (North/East?) corner

Thanks for that Jambalaya.
Without wanting to sound antagonistic are air strikes, on the whole, limited to that area also? (I know my question was relating to your quote of where the heart of the fighting is)

Still not entirely sure where the civilians are meant to get to be (relatively) safe.

@Notter – no the air strikes cover a much wider area, they are more precise than a tank shell and the firing/environment is less chaotic. It’s the ground assault which has created the most civilian casualties on a relative basis and that’s focused in that top part as far as I know.

I did did a quick calculation and in Iraq the portion of civilian deaths vs combatants is 65%-75%, I know it’s not directly comparable but its a comparison to show many civilians are killed in any conflict. The days of battlefield wars are long past.

Killing people’s kids has never been a way of making people like you.

Agree the days of battlefield war are long past but the striking of a supposedly known “place of safety” regardless of who ultimately did it, is a step too far.
On my second question, and I’m not asking you specifically Jambalaya, where in Gaza can a civilian / family go to to be relatively safe? Is there such a place?

its a comparison to show many civilians are killed in any conflict.

Wow. I’d never realised. Thanks. That makes it all ok then. And of course, because nobody’s discussing Syria, Iraq etc on a thread about the Gaza conflict, that means none of us care.

There’s someone else who typically uses diversionary tactics on threads like this. Funnily enough, you both seem to be on the same side.

@dd – I am making the comparison as I see so much news coverage and forum posts highly critical of what’s happening in Gaza yet very little about ISIS, there seems to me to be little balance. More muslims are being killed by other muslims than in the alleged (by posters here) genocide being waged by Israel against the Palestinians. Far more civilians are dying in Iraq than in Gaza. We have stories about the expulsion of Christians (who will otherwise be put to death), decrees that all women be subject to FGM and must wear a full veil.

I am appalled by both situations but I only see a reaction here to one.

Actually, sod that. I really have other things I need to be doing today. 🙂

As an aside who’s side are you on with regard to ISIS and the Iraqi government ? I strongly suspect there are have been far more than 1,000 civilian casualties in that war. There must be many many 1000’s or Iraqi’s killed by suicide bombs in the past 10 years

dont start with the whataboutery again…that was done on the other thread…if you want to talk about that then start a new thread about it and i’ll join you there so we can discuss it…this thread in its content seems to be quite specific contrary to what the thread title may be so lets stick to it

decrees that all women be subject to FGM and must wear a full veil.

what decrees are these then?
like i said if you want to discuss ISIS start another thread

EDIT: you say more civilians have died in Iraq? show me the figures that prove it was at the hands of fellow Iraqi Muslims and not American/British military personnel
as for what is happening in Gaza/Palestine…this has been going on since 1947…over the recent years it has escalated especially in the last month hence the public uproar

This thread is specifically about the genocide in Gaza and the moral contempt for the apologists that the vast, VAST majority feel and express.

You have an opinion about Syria or Iraq? Start a thread.

decrees that all women be subject to FGM

I agree that this thread isnt the place for that discussion but I read these earlier today:

#UN statement that #ISIS issued fatwa calling 4 FGM 4 girls is false residents of Mosul say including a doctor, journalist and tribal leader.[/url]

Doubts grow over ISIS FGM

As an aside who’s side are you on with regard to ISIS and the Iraqi government ?

What a stupid completely irrelevant comment.

I guess attempting to shift the focus away from Israel and onto a totally unrelated issue is the best that the pro-Israelis can hope to do. They certainly can’t defend or justify Israel’s brutal and murderous behaviour.