Muslims offended again

If any of you get chance – have a look at this blog by Sam Harris (American philosopher and neuroscientist).

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

I found it very interesting.

That was all you had to say- you admit the IDF intentionally attacks civilian targets. You denounce muslims who say attacking civilian targets can be justified. Then you justify it yourself, over and over. I’m not even arguing with you, I just need to hold up a mirror to you.

For gods sake Northwind, I’m not trying to apologize for Israel, what I’m getting at is the language and direction we are taking in resolving the conflict.

If you can link me to evidence that the Israelis are knowingly killing civilians as the primary target then I will accept your claims. It’s as simple as that and I will change my tune somewhat.

Tom serving IDF soldiers are on Facebook and breaking the silence describing deliberately targeting civilians in revenge killings . it has also been on the news too.

Thankyou, sodding finally! Link please?

errr… slight tangent

Does anyone else find it incredibly ironic that a band with the name Massive Attack are doing a fundraising gig out there..

I think the situation in Gaza is abominable (excuse the pun) but that little news snippet did make me smirk

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/.premium-1.582503

I’ve been looking for recent articles/interviews by this chap on the current conflict, it would be great to find one. It appears, sadly, that he has retired possibly due to pressure from Islamists and Jewish right wingers.

I might actually have to try and contact him.

What a load of fuss over a few dogs. Good job they didn’t go with pigs.

Google is your friend for breaking the silence .

Can’t find any twitter quotes etc, all I can find is secondhand information from Eran Efrati. I’m not sure I trust this really.

Deluded – thanks for posting the Sam Harris article. Worth ploughing through the maze, to get to that.

Tom_W1987 – Member

If you can link me to evidence that the Israelis are knowingly killing civilians as the primary target then I will accept your claims.

I make that the 3rd time you’ve asked for evidence then immediately on receiving it changed your question. But why would I provide you with evidence for something I’ve never claimed? Why would you pretend I’ve claimed something I’ve not? Why would you demand evidence of something then when it’s delivered on a plate, ignore it and ask for evidence of something else entirely?

This is not about “making excuses for israel”- although yes, you do exactly that. It’s actually about you. I’d hoped that if you could see the fundamental contradiction in your position, of condemning something in others which you do yourself, you might give that a bit of thought and maybe something good would come of it. You can’t build good thoughts on bad foundations, and it seemed like having come out with such an obvious double standard might make you stop and think.

If you don’t want to do that, then fair enough but… Know what leads you forward and what holds you back, as a clever religious man said.

What have you given me evidence for, accidental fire/Israeli incompetence?

I’m sorry but the hit schools etc are not evidence of premeditated attacks on civilians. War isn’t accurate or perfect, the weapons are not as accurate as you think they are and combat stress can cause soldiers to fire when they shouldn’t.

U.N. Informed Israel 17 Times About Gaza School Shelter Before Attack[/url]

UNRWA chief Pierre Krahenbuhl said the agency had given the school’s precise location to the Israeli military 17 times, with the last notification made just hours before the shelling.

IMO Ernie I think the use of dumb shells in the conflict is disgusting. Artillery is never that accurate unless smart munitions are used, I think that does highlight at least a disregard for civilians and their own international reputation.

And for what, probably the chance to kill a couple of idiots taking pot shots. I’d like to know whether the IDF arty was actually given the green light by brass to do that.

**** morons on both sides.

Tom_W1987 – Member

What have you given me evidence for

Initially, intentional fire on civilian targets- which, you will remember, is where we came in, with you condemning muslims who believed attacking civilian targets can be justified.

Then, after I gave you that, you decided to change your order and demanded evidence intentional fire on civilian targets, in the knowledge that there are no militants present. Which I also provided.

It’s all just over the page.

Sorry, I’m on my mobile Northwind whilst reading so it’s a right pain to go back and find reports.

I can’t find any links from you.

so you could post links and massive quotes from said link like this post
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/muslims-offended-again/page/6#post-6201788
on the last page but you cannot go back on the number link on this page to re read on your phone

this defence deserves a name

Artillery is never that accurate

Yes of course “inaccurate artillery” is to blame. Not much point leaving their homes as suggested by the Israelis and seeking shelter in UN schools then.

And strangely enough “inaccurate artillery” never causes the death of Israeli civilians – the school was only about 3km from the Israeli border. Funny that.

I’ve been on the mobile since then.

Ernie, I just started agreeing with you. The very fact that they were using indirect artillery fire is a travesty.

Still can’t find the links on your previous pages NW.

Fog of war eh tom?

Tom_W1987 – Member

Sorry, I’m on my mobile Northwind whilst reading so it’s a right pain to go back and find reports.

No reports. Why would I need reports? You conceded yourself that the IDF intentionally attacks civilian targets, in fact they happily admit they do it.

And then, when you tried to justify that (but of course justifying attacks on civilian targets is wrong, if you’re a muslim) and demanded evidence that they attack civilian targets that don’t have armed militants in them, again the IDF stepped up and proudly declared that they do- by “knocking” they ensure the civilian buildings have no armed militants present.

I was giving you some benefit of the doubt. Now I’m not. These aren’t things that even the IDF denies.

Northwind, I won’t condemn hitting targets in buildings such as power stations using smart munitions.

I don’t agree with engaging targets near hospitals or schools using artillery., or anywhere in gaza for that matter

The problem with not being able to target militants within residential areas is that most of Gaza is built up.

I don’t agree with engaging targets near hospitals or schools using artillery.

Why not? If they are legitimate targets why wouldn’t you ‘approve’? Don’t tell us it’s because you have a shred of humanity? It’s a bit fuckinlate for that young tom!

So once again you say attacks on civilian targets are justified. But you condemn muslims for saying attacks on civilian targets can be justified.

Have you ever considered stopping digging?

Are you saying that the Israel is aren’t allowed to respond to militants firing unguided rockets?

If so how many Israelis would have to be killed before you allowed the Israel is to respond?

You cannot compromise at all Northwind and I am utterly certain that polarisation like that is what is deepening this conflict by hardening opinions.

I am saying that you say attacks on civilian targets are justified. But you condemn muslims for saying attacks on civilian targets can be justified.

Am I typing in wingdings or something?

There is a difference between premeditated attacks against civilians using suicide bombings and civilians getting caught in IDF attacks.

BTW I’m completely sure that there are plenty of Israelis who would support targeting civilians as well.

We weren’t the aggressive, conquering and domineering far superior Ayran race who was looking to rule the earth for a thousand years. We were the blokes (and ladies) with our backs to the wall for 6years.

although to be fair for the previous 150 years, “we” had been aggressively conquering and dominating far off peoples and lands with plans to rule over them forever.

I’ll reveal my hand here. A mate of mine mentioned his riding mate from holiday who was a ex-IDF soldier and fun etc. If I had met him I’d have punched the ****. Hurt the ****. I’ve said this before on here, what would Saladin say? Where are the Muslim Scholars today? The great Islamic empires of old, it seems to be converging generally more and more [\quote]
this must be the least revealing revelation ever. understanding its meaning and relevance would require more study than the Dead Sea Scrolls received.

Are you saying that the Israel is aren’t allowed to respond to militants firing unguided rockets?

What, by targeting women and children and murdering them gruesomely in UN safe havens? What’s the death toll now? 1300?

When, in your opinion are the Palestinians ‘allowed’ to retaliate? How many deaths equals justification?

You are a disgusting apologist for murder tom_W1987.

Did I say that I supported that? Here we go again.

If Hamas wanted to start a war and really cared about civilian palestinian deaths they could stick to cross border incursions and sniper attacks. To defend Hamas attacks as perfectly reasonable ‘retaliation’ and damn Israel on the other is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

Keep resorting to ad Hom, the bastion of the desperate.

Yes you have, consistently, on a number of threads.

You don’t like be called out for it though but you have no answer when you are.

Disgusting. Apologist. For murder.

That is what you are.

Haha. You’re only reading what you want to read yossarian.

Lol people arguing about Gaza vs. Israel

Oh the irony…

I don’t agree with engaging targets near hospitals or schools using artillery.,

You’re at it again with your “near”. These are direct strikes on deliberate civilian targets.

And it’s not just hospitals and schools, Israel has deliberately targeted other civilian assets.

Knocking out Gaza’a only power station was aimed primarily at harming civilians, not Hamas. Or do you think Hamas can’t fight without electricity ?

Without electricity available to hospitals people will die, that’s sick and injured people, including children, who are no threat to anyone.

Lack of refrigeration, water pumps, etc, will provide very serious health problems for the people of Gaza.

For those reasons plus the fact that the power station was a purely civilian target, not a military one, the UN has said that the strike on the power station may constitute as a war crime.

Tom_W1987 – Member

You cannot compromise at all Northwind and I am utterly certain that polarisation like that is what is deepening this conflict by hardening opinions.

Tom, you just don’t seem to be paying the slightest attention to what I’m saying, this comment doesn’t make any sense. I don’t know what else to say. Are you confusing my posts with other people’s or something? While simultaneously ignoring everything I do say? Genuine wtf.

although to be fair for the previous 150 years, “we” had been aggressively conquering and dominating far off peoples and lands with plans to rule over them forever

Konabunny, can you give more input to this thread? Have I been unreasonable in trying to find some middle ground between the anti Israelis and the pro-Israelis?

Knocking out Gaza’a only power station was aimed primarily at harming civilians, not Hamas. Or do you think Hamas can’t fight without electricity ?

Good point, I didn’t know they had hit their only remaining power station. I don’t know what you mean with the ‘near’ comment, using arty near or directly at or anywhere in Gaza is unacceptable.

I am conceding that I think the Israeli response has been disproportionate, before this I believed they had the right to respond to attacks from within residential areas (basically all of Gaza). But they’ve pissed that right up the wall.

You win in that regard Ernie, I’m now pretty depressed about the situation and it’s ability to be resolved.

Konabunny, can you give more input to this thread? Have I been unreasonable in trying to fund some middle ground?

NW of course you have made sense and raised some rational points [ pwned him so to speak]. Honestly I have no idea if he gets them and ignores them or does not get them at all.

I didn’t know they had hit their only remaining power station.

I don’t think Gaza had more than one power station, after all it’s only 25 miles long by about 5 miles wide.

The low life zionists knocked out their only power station.

Actually, it wasn’t NW that changed my opinion. It was Ernies single post about the attack on the UN compound today.

At the start of the conflict I was much more sympathetic to the Israeli cause, that’s been slowly eroding but today’s attack is unjustifiable.

I stand by my assertion that inclusive dialogue is needed for peace though. I would still like to try and get in contact with that academic.