bencooper – Member
So your solution for these disaffected young men isn’t to wonder why they’ve got teh views they do, and try to counter that kind of extremism, your solution is to take them away from their families and execute them?

How does that prevent the next generation of young men growing up feeling they aren’t connected to society?

Do you only target brown people who download dodgy videos from the internet, or do you also execute white people who say something a bit racist on Facebook?I do not think foreign policy is entirely the cause of some Muslim communities (by no means all of which are extremist) living ‘apart’ from the rest of society.

As for how or why I think things need to be done, the parallel with the intelligence and military operations which led to the end of the IRA are a basis:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/z2wyvcw

However, you have still neatly avoided an actual proposal, deciding only to offer criticism.

jimjam – Member
No. The illegal invasion of Iraq, based on lies an misinformation is the event to which the rise of ISIS is attributable.

Here you go: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story

Said by just about any ‘muslim’ on any radio phone in in response to yet another terrorist atrocity….

“I condemn these attacks BUT…”.

I thought Newsnight was excellent last night. The leader of the Council of Muslims was very chilling, his “deunciation” was lame in the extreme.

@Northwind ISIS and Shia / Sunni sectarian violence is killing far more Muslims than is the West. The policeman executed on the ground was an Arab. To describe the West’s action in the Middle East as anti-Muslim is nonsense, we’ve heard many justifications from politically motivated regime change to oil. It is only those who the West is acting against that try and claim the action is anti Muslim in order to stoke up further violence.

The quotation from the Arch Bishop in Raqqa is very telling, our liberal Western values are inconsistent with those against which we are fighting.

There has been another gun battle in Paris this morning

digga

Here you go: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story

Jesus wept. Yes, I understand ISIS members met in prison. In an American prison. In Iraq.

digga
As for how or why I think things need to be done, the parallel with the intelligence and military operations which led to the end of the IRA are a basis:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/z2wyvcw

Unsurprisingly, your knowledge of Northern Ireland can be summed up by little more than a few bullet points.

It is only those who the West is acting against that try and claim the action is anti Muslim in order to stoke up further violence.

Yeah, we’re just sticking up for ourselves.

The quotation from the Arch Bishop in Raqqa is very telling, our liberal Western values are inconsistent with those against which we are fighting.

Liberal western values like not illegally invading countries, not kidnapping people, not torturing people, and not summarily executing people?

As for how or why I think things need to be done, the parallel with the intelligence and military operations which led to the end of the IRA are a basis:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/z2wyvcw

If you think the IRA is gone you are naive.

That timeline doesn’t consider the years of history that went before it.

The IRA were not “defeated”. They didn’t “win” but they never “lost” either.

As the Catholic population increases and the Loyalist decreases, it is only a matter of time before NI becomes part of Eire.

Besides, the IRA only wanted a United Ireland and did not say they wanted to overthrow the whole of Western Civilization, unlike Al Qaeda, ISIS etc. To compare them is not really realistic.

It’s a very fragile religion which cannot accept a little criticism and satire, which Islam (or at least many of its followers) does not seem to be able to do.

I thought Newsnight was excellent last night. The leader of the Council of Muslims was very chilling, his “deunciation” was lame in the extreme.

Exactly what I’ve been saying, and getting slagged off for pointing out Jambalaya. It wasn’t a condemnation at all. Far from it. Quite the reverse. It was a justification for violence by drawing a line in the sand, and saying you cross this by insulting the prophet, and anythings fair game after that.

And this from an organisation that markets itself as the ‘moderate’ face of Islam in this country. Chilling indeed!

Steve Bells point was interesting. Asking if as a religion, are they really that insecure?

@Northwind ISIS and Shia / Sunni sectarian violence is killing far more Muslims than is the West.

And who unleashed that sectarian violence in Iraq? Was it a major problem during Saddam’s reign?

There is a clear responsibility under international law for invading/occupying powers to protect the civilian population – we totally failed. It’s on us – legally and morally.

Binners – you should probably worry when you are agreeing with jambalaya on politics (not watched the clip yet so I’m reserving judgement – I just find phrased like ‘ not in so many words’ a giant red flag’)

..but Iraq was held together through brutality, are you suggesting the occupiers should have continued that policy?

Do you only target brown people who download dodgy videos from the internet, or do you also execute white people who say something a bit racist on Facebook?

Eh? what’s skin colour got to do with religion?

gobuchul – Member
The IRA were not “defeated”. They didn’t “win” but they never “lost” either.

Understood – they simply ceased terrorist operations. That, effectively, is the result surely most people wanted?

I realise the whole process was not actually this simple – I have spent time there myself, so I am aware of the complexities – but the main point is that whatever happens now and in the future will hopefully be peaceful.

It’s a very fragile religion which cannot accept a little criticism and satire, which Islam (or at least many of its followers) does not seem to be able to do.

That was the point made by the guy I quoted. Unless I totally misunderstood, he was a Muslim and saw this as a fundamental flaw in their interpretation and/or continued belief in an outdated text.

..but Iraq was held together through brutality, are you suggesting the occupiers should have continued that policy?

No, I’m suggesting that a) we shouldn’t have invaded in the first place, and b) we should at least have had some kind of plan (the Americans have admitted that they didn’t and that they assumed it would all be fine)

The way Britain was led into war with Iraq 10 years ago was “wholly irresponsible” and the lack of intelligence on the country a national disgrace, senior military figures have told the Guardian.

Though they direct their fire principally at the Bush administration, they make clear the Blair government must share a lot of the blame.

“It was absolutely irresponsible to go in without thinking of the consequences”, said Lord Guthrie, former chief of defence staff and head of the army. He added: “War is dangerous, difficult, and dirty, but usually cheaper and shorter and easier than what can happen after the fighting stops.”

Donald Rumsfeld, US defence secretary at the time, had a “lot to answer for”, Guthrie added, referring to the way Rumsfeld, notorious for his “stuff happens” description of widespread looting in Baghdad, allowed Paul Bremer, the US chief administrator – in effect the US governor of Iraq after the invasion – to ban the Ba’ath party and dismantle the Iraqi army.

They should have got rid of the top people but “clasped the army to their bosom”, and say to them: ‘Help us rebuild Iraq'”, Guthrie told the Guardian.

“Why did Bremer squash any sense of the Iraqi people taking any role in their own destiny?” asked Air Chief Marshal Sir Brian Burridge, commander of British forces in Iraq at the time of the invasion. “That defies logic.”

General Sir Mike Jackson, head of the army at the time, described Rumsfeld and Bremer as “intellectually bankrupt”. With other British defence chiefs, he expected and wanted Iraqi military units, including Saddam Hussein’s Republican Guard, to remain in place and help maintain law and order in Iraq after the invasion.

digga

I realise the whole process was not actually this simple – I have spent time there myself, so I am aware of the complexities –

You clearly aren’t. You haven’t a ****ing clue actually.

The Saudi government works very closely with the US, the US has numerous military bases and personnel inside Saudi. There are undoubtedly those inside Saudi who fund terrorism but it’s not a state level activity unlike Iran. As such sanctions against Saudi make no sense unlike those in place against Iran.

@digga you mention Palestine, the French are one of Europe’s most pro Palestine governments so that would make them an unlikely target, no ? One of the suspects has fantasied about attacking Jews, the returning jihadist fighter who killed the Jews at the Belgian museum was French. The terrorists you saw yesterday, they are representative of those in Government in Gaza. That is why the Israeli’s control that border to prevent the sort of attack yesterday in Paris occurring on the streets of Tel Aviv. In the French press there is coverage of Palestinian officials congratulating those responsible for yesterdays attacks. Israels responce to the Palestinians may not sit well with many in the West but they are dealing with this threat day in and day out. Yesterday Israel sentenced the third of the three Hamas members who kidnapped and murdered the three teenagers. In August the leader of Hamas (resident in Qatar) finally admitted that all three responsible where Hamas operatives.

Another police officer just been shot and killed in Paris. just been reported on 5live.

And who unleashed that sectarian violence in Iraq? Was it a major problem during Saddam’s reign?

Yes the sectarian violence existed during Saddam’s reign, it was institutionalized and part of his form of control. The Sunni and Shia unleashed the violence on each other when we withdrew prematurely.

@jambalaya

Who do you think creates the conditions that foment terrorism? It’s a serious question. I realise you have no problem with the fact that we can knock out a few of them by knocking out lots and accepting the innocent ones as collateral damage…I recall you justifying this quite a lot on another thread. Do you think terrorism is born solely as a result of the religious beliefs of a large chunk of the population of the middle east (and stretching over to Afghanistan & Pakistan). Why do we have jihadism in Western Europe? Why is there little or negligible jihadism in, say Eastern Europe or, say, South America (two very very Christian areas)? How do you think nationalism in Northern Ireland led to republicanism and consequently thirty or forty odd years of mindless violence on both (well, three actually) sides?

supposed ‘moderate’ viewpoint didn’t look like any definition of ‘moderate’ that I’d recognise.

Are we describing their views or yours?

Failing to act now essentially condemns many more innocents to become collateral damage of a failed strategy.

Not sure I agree this will happen but sending out death squads will only lead to more terrorists and fuel the impressionable youths view of us. it will condem more to death as collateral damage. You are like them tbh the way to win is to be lkill the most.

Eh? what’s skin colour got to do with religion?

Absolutely nothing at all – and that’s my point, that a policy of “disappearing” people who might be a bit dodgy is bound to use stereotypes like that. Just look at the stop and search statistics regarding race.

who fund terrorism but it’s not a state level activity unlike Iran

Like the US funds Israel that sort of thing?

They execute [ literally] state sponsored assassinations by MOSAD on foreign soil. What would Jam say if Iran did this and will you condemn Israel as vociferously for this terrorism?

I am going for you ignore it or just tell me how bad somewhere else is and how some Muslim group are worse

Just ban religion full stop. The amount of death and suffering caused by one group claiming their version of a story is more true than anyone else’s is abhorrent.

I’ve crossed the border between Ireland and the UK loads of times, including during the troubles when I’d be interrogated – back then I had to give my occupation as “Industrial Chemist”. So, I know how it feels to be suspected of terrorism. 😉

Years ago I took an electric bike battery back to Germany in my hand baggage – on X-ray it’s a lot of cylinders wired up to a circuit board. So I know how it feels to be suspected of terrorism too 😉

Then there was the time US security thought I was a terrorist because I was wearing a bike event t-shirt with the sponsor’s name on it – they thought Scottish Power was like Black Power…

I see that the two suspects being sought were previously involved in sending impressionable young indoctrinees to fight for IS.

Given that they exhibited thorough and trained professionalism during the hit, it looks like the worries about returning jihadis engaging in further violence in their countries of residence, are becoming true.

Just ban religion full stop

Indeed what coudl possibly gow wrong with a strategy of persecuting those you disagree with
Not only that it is really simple and effective to end and kill an idea by just simply outlawing it.

I dont agree with religion but you are either a western tolerant liberal who agrees with freedom of choice and respects the right of others to make choices you disagree with or you are an extremist who would persecute others who disagree with you…now who does the later remind you of ?

Absolutely nothing at all – and that’s my point, that a policy of “disappearing” people who might be a bit dodgy is bound to use stereotypes like that.

I don’t think it would be ‘bound’ to use stereotypes like that at all

The KGB and CIA didn’t just go around just randomly killing white people in the Cold War did they?

The surest way to guarantee the spread of something is to ban it.

jimjam – Member
digga
I realise the whole process was not actually this simple – I have spent time there myself, so I am aware of the complexities –

You clearly aren’t. You haven’t a ****ing clue actuallyThere you go with the feeble ad hom’s again. Incapable of rational, objective debate.

As it happens my own experience is not extensive, but I do know a fair bit. However, I know a man who really does know and, if you don’t mind, I’ll take his opinion over yours.

you aint wrong Wopppit,

that must be why everyone is calling for a ban on western liberal tolerance.

I don’t think it would be ‘bound’ to use stereotypes like that at all

We’re speculating about how some theoretical security service would kidnap and murder its own citizens – I don’t think it’s possible to make any assumptions under that kind of situation.

I know a man who really does know

How lucky you can do an appeal to authority with an un named and unknown source. I cannot speak for others but yes I am convinced.

The surest way to guarantee the spread of something is to ban it.

That’s been shown to work really well over the years. Let’s see, alcohol prohibition, drug use, they even managed to change the religion of the whole of Ireland when they tried to stamp out Catholicism a few hundred years ago before we could even have a Twitter rage about things. They all worked really well.

(Apologies if you were being sarcastic…I haven’t switched on my meter yet this morning.)

digga

I realise the whole process was not actually this simple – I have spent time there myself, so I am aware of the complexities –

digga
As it happens my own experience is not extensive

However, I know a man who really does know

Yes I’m sure you do. Whenever your mate Barry from the pub, who’s read even more Andy McNabb books than you decides to post let me know.

digga
if you don’t mind, I’ll take his opinion over yours.

I don’t mind at all. I didn’t even read that one page on the BBC website that neatly summarised the troubles for the hard of thinking. Tat’s how badly misinformed I am.

Just ban religion full stop.

That’s the ticket. So what we need right now is another Joe Stalin?

You can’t ban something out of existence.

Unless you are a moderator 😉

Barry down the pub though…he knows about the boathouse at Hereford.

As an aside, why do we immediately resort to the jerked knee in this country?

Anders Breivik. Norway has the most liberal prison system in the world (rehabilitation through priveledges and education and so on) and also the lowest re-offending rates.

Perhaps we should reconsider our time-honoured way of ensuring failure?