MTB sales over the last couple of years?

Isn’t there something on the homepage where some firm have just built a 13 speed cassette

Yep. 🙄

whilst I agree that there are various bargains about I do think that new decent mtb prices have gone up faster than inflation and currency etc dictates

But that comes back to my original point that it depends when your baseline is. Since 2007? Yes, definitely. Since 2000, no, not a jot. Since 2012? Probably about right.

some firm have just built a 13 speed cassette

More as a demo of what a wider fat bike rear hub can offer when you escape the old 135mm limits. A wider spoke spacing is a good thing too. For that I like it – I’d like to see 135mm make way for 150mm or so with a slightly wider BB across all MTBs. But new standards are widely hated ..

-ageing population, wants lower risk during riding

Well they are hilariously deluded if they think they’re going to run a lower risk of death by becoming roadies.

Hooli, agree with most of your post as most people purchase things on WANT or NEED rather than it being essential but the that’s consumer choice.

In terms of prices it only takes one company to charge the higher price before the rest follow suit and then we as consumers have no choice but to pay it. Take helmets for example they’re now going for stupid money, I think I read something when Interbike was on that there’s a open face helmet coming out from one of the manufacturers at over £200, how long do you think it’ll be before everyone is charging that for a helmet.
Only if the public pay it! Back to my point above – why does the average cyclist in the UK need a £200 helmet? What does it do that my £30 Bell (tested and certified) helmet doesn’t do?

I’m not surprised that MTB sales in the UK are declining, the marketing is all wrong. Go into your local supermarket, pick up a mountain bike magazine and ask yourself whether what is in there is likely to appeal to the sort of middle aged, middle class person with disposable income. No, it’s all about the gnarr. If you are not throwing yourself down rocky chutes, launching off drops and getting a loyalty card at your local A&E then you have no place in our sport grandad.

This!!!

No appealing to sense of adventure or wilderness, no ‘lifestyle’ or ‘get away from it all’ or ‘at one with nature’ – all ‘radical dude’ bollocks (see also yesterdays post about MTB film/video having gone the same way)

Britain has AMAZING trails all over the place, the daily trail riding/mountain biking that most of us do is no more supermaxextreme than it is head down arse up XC racing – for a while there in the early to mid 2000’s we were doing really well on bringing people into the sport on the ‘outdoor lifestyle’ explore the countryside angle, especially with the trail centres, but we threw it all away by putting berms on everything… [/quote]

This +2. The marketing is aimed at “da kidz” but they aren’t the ones with the disposable income available to buy £4K bikes plus another £1K on clothes and gear. While they might sell a new bike to an existing middle-aged type who already rides, the youngsters won’t be joining the sport when the barriers to entry are ever higher – not only is the industry telling them that they need to spend upwards of £2K on a bike to get anything worth riding, but as new entrants they will also need as a minimum a helmet, shorts, gloves and probably shoes and again, that looks like several hundred quid if you read the magazines to get your information.

Although it’s about consumer choice if your only option when looking for a new helmet were ones at £200 then that’s what you’d have to pay. It’s like that with anything, take petrol if BP said let’s put petrol up by 5p guaranteed the rest would follow suit if BP was still selling it at 5p more a litre.

one thing that might be worth considering is that if MTB isn’t attracting new people because of the prohibitive expense then it might give low sales figures for complete bikes but most hardened MTBers would never buy complete bikes; im sure the sales for frame only deals, particularly with the 650b ‘revolution’, would tell a different story. Even with a 650b switch, riders can do it incrementally either with a convertible bike (say Banshee or Canfield) or running 650 forks with 26 wheels or 650 wheels in 26 dropouts

I agree with a lots of what’s been said; MTB is much more pleasurable and challenging for me than road riding but we’re all time strapped and MTB is often a whole day out unless you have a local loop and don’t mind cleaning off mud. Unfortunately I moved from the peaks to forest of bowland where bridleways are like rocking horse poo!

As interesting as the debate is, I guess the next question is where are things headed?

The next “mini boom” will be for CX and Road disc bikes (we’re sort of seeing it already aren’t we), which might well be driven, at least in part, by MTBers/ex MTBers who’ve picked up Road cycling, in addition to MTBing but fancy a dabble with drop bars off road or are looking for something more Winter/year round “appropriate” to use on the road… It’s not primarily “proper roadies” who want to mix drop bars and disc brakes, it’s MTBers who’ve drifted over to the “Darkside” and brought a few slightly different ideas with them…

It’s all quite cyclical though MTBing is probably overall still a Growing sport, the rate of growth might be dipping with more interest in Road and CX riding at the minute but I think there will be a “Baseload” of new people coming into MTBing for some time…
A mix of the Cost of living/income constraints and Mainstream media buzz is helping UK Road cycling along a bit, TBH it’s not a bad thing, it’s all cycling, so it’s all good…

There will of course be some of those “New Roadies” who become secondary adopters of MTBing and those of us who’ve been at it for a while simply aren’t biting as much with the current lot of products, but some still are, the high price point level (£1k+) isn’t the whole market, most people will come into MTBing via a sub £500 HT of some sort still I reckon… And who knows, persuade ITV4 to pick up the rights to EWS or the BDS and that could drive a little more interest.

More People are into cycling now, which specific Niche’s they dabble in and which they might try out latter is not set in stone yet…

A few comments above I totally agree with, all symptoms of a mature market and a highly developed, segmented and categorised ‘sport’. There’s nothing really, truly new to be done and there hasn’t been for a good few years.

I was in the bike trade in the mountain bike boom years and we sold them literally by the lorry load. I’d doubt if 1 in a 100 were ever ridden off road, they were simply comfortable, durable and made riding a bike cool again. For kids bikes and low-end bikes the MTB is still probably the default purchase.

At the higher end of the market MTBs have become part of a highly specialised sport which requires significant money, spare time and motivation and, despite what we may feel, isn’t viewed by the majority of the population as being particularly cool. There was always going to be a limit to the number of people fitting this bill and most of them have already got several bikes. Changing the wheel size or tyre width isn’t going to revitalize this market, it’s reached it’s natural limit.

Thanks to the ‘Wiggins effect’ (including the Tour de Yorkshire), road bikes are now the cool purchase for people who have spare time, disposable income and reasonable fitness, and this is spilling over to sports mountain bikers. If you’ve already got N+1 mountain bikes what better way to satisfy that new bike itch than by buying a road or CX bike?

The clumsy golf analogy was just meant to illustrate the point that most peoples’ chosen leisure activity can’t be done from their door, so that isn’t really an excuse for a decline in mountain biking.

However, I take the point that the ability to ride from your front door is appealing, which is why I find the obsession with the super gnarr side of the sport surprising. I’m sure a lot of roadies could be sold a nice light XC/Marathon bike. Efficient enough to ride from your door, capable enough to handle the sort of trails these riders would enjoy and comfortable enough to ride all day. Sell them adventure and beautiful scenery, not scary descents and pictures of smashed up riders.

^ Exactly. It’s less about MTB and more about riding bikes in general. I think a lot of new roadies will/do get fed up of UK traffic and try out CX/MTB-lite.

not only is the industry telling them that they need to spend upwards of £2K on a bike to get anything worth riding

A general point that comes up, but I’ll go on record as saying there’s never been any need to spend more than what the £500-1000 range can offer. I’m not alone in saying that, I know a few mag testers would agree (maybe with caveats.. ie you’re not aspiring to be an EWS legend)
I’m spending a lot of time on an £850 RRP bike right now, I popped some old but tubeless wheels on it but it’s still a very sub-£1000 bike. Spending more on it wouldn’t add anything to my riding. The catch is that it’s not got suspension.. it’s easy to make great bike well under a grand if suspension isn’t needed. (Jonestown on here / of Stooge bikes says on his site that he believes suspension was developed only to cope with the drwabacks of the dreadful riding position MTBs had in the early 90s. He’s not alone in saying / thinking that).

njee20 – Member

whilst I agree that there are various bargains about I do think that new decent mtb prices have gone up faster than inflation and currency etc dictates

But that comes back to my original point that it depends when your baseline is. Since 2007? Yes, definitely. Since 2000, no, not a jot. Since 2012? Probably about right.

I’m kind of with njee on this one. My last hardtail ‘bike’ purchase was back in 2000, a Cannondale F700 for £1200. It came with XT rear mech, deore shifters, bottom of the range Magura Clara brakes and full in house Coda finishing kit, including their chainset.

A quick google search of Cannondales hardtails at a similar pricepoint brings this up

http://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/p/18020/cannondale-trail-1-hardtail-mountain-bike-2015?gclid=CP_Dpr-U_MACFbPJtAodGjQAag

Arguably a better spec bike for £100 cheaper.

My last full sus bike was 2008 Commencal Meta 55 XT which was fully kitted out in XT and Fox Float forks for £1900. A similar spec bike these days would be circa £3k.

However, I take the point that the ability to ride from your front door is appealing, which is why I find the obsession with the super gnarr side of the sport surprising. I’m sure a lot of roadies could be sold a nice light XC/Marathon bike. Efficient enough to ride from your door, capable enough to handle the sort of trails these riders would enjoy and comfortable enough to ride all day

I have a nice light XC bike, I can ride from my door, and either do bridleway type stuff (I’d rather ride on the road 99% of the time), or I can ride on the road to the good trails, about 16 miles away. I do that sometimes, more often I stick the bike in the back of the car. Whilst I thoroughly enjoy this on occasion I don’t do it unless I have a good half a day, I want to do 3-4 hours riding, and as said, that takes a lot longer.

I really don’t think you’d encourage many roadies to plod around on bridleways, or ride their MTB on the roads to get to more appropriate stuff.

I think you’re being swayed by the fact you don’t really like riding on the road, and see riding off road as better, rather than different.

However, I take the point that the ability to ride from your front door is appealing, which is why I find the obsession with the super gnarr side of the sport surprising. I’m sure a lot of roadies could be sold a nice light XC/Marathon bike. Efficient enough to ride from your door, capable enough to handle the sort of trails these riders would enjoy and comfortable enough to ride all day. Sell them adventure and beautiful scenery, not scary descents and pictures of smashed up riders.

Conveniently, for most of the population, we’ve actually got that type of trail within a mile of our doorstep – the bridleway (shhh, and footpath) network through most of the country is amazing – sure, its far from perfect, its disjointed and needs major improvement to suit peoples lifestyles, and the laws (if you bother with them) are pointless and anachronistic – but they provide an amazing core of trails that can get people out and about offroad. Thing is, most of the riders who have come into the sport in the ‘trail centre’ era don’t even look at them, as a sport we’ve never capitalised on the opportunities for education and progression that all these new riders arriving at trail centres gave us, and as a result many of them wandered off as life and responsibility (family, work, kids) got in the way. We really were trying to push this with IMBA-UK ten years ago, but the sport, and the industry, didn’t want to hear it.

too much of our sales, marketing and trail provision has been at the top of the pyramid. Its time to move on from this – I do’t think the ‘safe family cycling’ is a good thing either.

Hell, I’d love to see a free OS map given away with every new mountain bike!

edit:

I really don’t think you’d encourage many roadies to plod around on bridleways, or ride their MTB on the roads to get to more appropriate stuff.

I disagree with the former (hell, most of the new roadies are doing little more than plodding on their road bikes) but agree with the latter – we need a joined up network of bridleways, its a travesty at the moment and has been for too long, the only way to do this is pressure on local and central government – local access forums etc. exist for a reason, I can think of so many small towns with ‘ringway’ type footpath routes and ‘St bumfluffs way’ type waymarked walks, with nothing equivalent for cyclists.

I think you’re being swayed by the fact you don’t really like riding on the road, and see riding off road as better, rather than different.

I think the huge sucess of sustrans type routes (old railway lines etc) shows that there is massive room and widespread desire for scenic countryside bike routes without cars.

I’m sure a lot of roadies could be sold a nice light XC/Marathon bike. Efficient enough to ride from your door, capable enough to handle the sort of trails these riders would enjoy and comfortable enough to ride all day. Sell them adventure and beautiful scenery, not scary descents and pictures of smashed up riders.

I couldn’t have described myself better! I can just about handle the steep rocky descent stuff when riding with friends who insist on that sort of thing, but I don’t enjoy it for it’s own sake. Riding a bike for me has always been about getting out into countryside and MTB-Lite ticks all my boxes.

It’s refreshing to come across families on bridleways and green routes doing exactly that. They’re riding MTBs (usually over-suspensioned, and far too heavy as a result) but it’s the riding, not the bikes that’s turning them on.

I think you’re being swayed by the fact you don’t really like riding on the road, and see riding off road as better, rather than different

It’s funny, until around 3 years ago I was a committed roadie and had been for more years than I care to recall. Not a racer, but definitely a roadie; Audax, Sportives, Touring, Etape du Tour etc. So, I’ve got nothing against roadies. I think what sways it for me is living in the North East of Scotland (both the trails and the access rights). I suspect that, if I still lived in the south of England, I’d still be a roadie.

But it’s not about me. I’m sitting here nursing my second broken arm this year and I can’t wait to get the cast off and get back out there. I’ve also given the bike industry quite enough of my cash. But there clearly aren’t enough idiots like me to keep the industry growing and even I’m thinking of toning it down a bit! So, I was just wondering what could be done to target the more sane portions of the population who clearly are drawn to road riding.

I’d rather ride on the road than on fire-roads and bridleways. I grew up in the countryside, don’t need to see it again. Give me the blur of trees passing any day.

Anecdotally I’ve seen the number of youngsters on the trails drop off from 5 years ago and definitely 10 years ago. Not sure they’re going over to road bikes?

It is noticeable that MTB/cycling seems to be something for 30+ down in the South. Perhaps the kids are on BMX bikes? I Hope so. 😕

Well they are hilariously deluded if they think they’re going to run a lower risk of death by becoming roadies.

I agree. I got back into biking about three years ago having had a long lay off (from road bikes). Having taken the hybrid out on the roads and then started heading out up unsurfaced lanes and then bridleways I suddenly found myself buying my first MTB (and one for Mrs. SOM). I don’t want to battle traffic and plough along furrowed potholed roads on skinny 120psi tyres. I’m also not too keen on riding from the doorstep along miles of busy A roads to get to some interesting stuff.

I like a bit of techie stuff (I’m not quite the wuss I was 2 years ago) but for me it’s just about getting out into the hills and away from motors). That might have something to do with 40 years fell walking and rock climbing though.

The all-important Peaslake Bus Shelter Index shows that:
a) There’s a lot more roadies about than there used to be
b) There’s an awful lot of very expensive new bikes out there – road and MTB
c) 29ers are still a bit of a rarity
d) 650b ‘enduro’ bikes are selling like hot cakes

Until recently, the people I ride with (not representative of the PBSI) were all buying 29er hardtails. Now everyone wants a 650b carbon ‘enduro’ bike (not me, though).

I think there’s been a shift in the type of trails around the Surrey Hills too, can’t decide if it’s being brought about by the bigger bikes, or if the bigger bikes are changing the trails.

So many of the trails I’ve ridden for years are changing quite markedly – John the Baptist, BKB, Evian, Curly Wurly etc have all changed more in the last year than in the 10 preceding years, braking bumps, jumps, roots getting more exposed etc. I’ve always said that a short travel XC race bike is the ideal tool for riding up there, but actually I think the balance is changing in favour of ‘bigger’ bikes in an increasing number of places.

Two bad summres and the wiggo effect has got MTBers buyingh road bikes and newbies going straight into road. BMX has benefitted at the expense of DH and DJ too. Maybe ENJOOROOOOW will bring the kids in but it won’t attract the bimblers need more leisure/outdoorsy stuff aimed at them and especially as they probably represent the biggest spending power.

I think (personal rant) that thats the a direct result of the ‘NRGsuperxtrememoto’ marketing of bikes resulting in bikes not suiting riders local/normal trails (or perhaps style of riding) so the cart goes in front of the horse and they modify the trail to suit them.

I love technical challenge and flow in a trail – but I think that pointlessly adding berms and jumps to make it Xtreme is missing the point, you can achieve far more by putting your trail in the right place to start with, make the best of what flavour you’ve got naturally before throwing in spice randomly.

ninfan +1. you just have to look at the front covers of the popular MTB mags and the images are all gererally biggish bikes on biggish lumps and drops with body armoured geezers hangin of the back of em…

I rarely see such bikes and attired riders on my local trails

Well I had no interest in 29ers so I didn’t consider a new bike. IMO the introduction of 17.5 has further confused the market. I am only interested in 26 so unless there is more choice at that size I will mend and make do and/or buy used frames if I fancy a switch.

Wheel size has made me hold off. Only bought replacement items as needed with the intention of riding my current bike until it dies or I win the lotto. This means no buying any “big” bits like wheels/frame/forks. Saved me a fortune it has!

jambalaya – I am in same position, but we will all be stuffed in a yr or so when we can’t get Merlin or whoever to build us a new back wheel. Thankfully I have a tapered headtube, but what about all the folks on decent 26ers with straight tubes – no decent forks around (see yesterdays Soul thread). There are going to be a lot of enthusiasts with good bikes, getting disillusioned as their bikes break and cant be fixed IMO. I think that would push such people more towards cx/gravel/road.

Funny isn’t it Ianc

Which sells mountain biking better to you:

Whister:

The alps:

or Britain (on your doorstep, free to ride, not even at a trail centre:)

Pretty sure 26in wheels will be made for a long time, huge userbase still needs servicing – the fork taper is not unique to 26in.

Funny isn’t it Ianc

Which sells mountain biking better to you

Not aimed at me I know, but I’m not really sure, neither actually appeal to what I enjoy about riding my mountain bike!

ninfan – Member
Funny isn’t it Ianc

Which sells mountain biking better to you:

😆 perfect examples and ‘for me’ and I suspect many others it’s the Britain ones. That said, as 48 yr old, risk averse mincer maybe I’m not the right demographic…… however I spend a load on bikes, so maybe I am..

make the best of what flavour you’ve got naturally before throwing in spice randomly.

I rarely agree with you, Z-11 – but when I do, I am in complete agreement. 😀

(PS pics 3 and 4 for me).

There are going to be a lot of enthusiasts with good bikes, getting disillusioned as their bikes break and cant be fixed IMO. I think that would push such people more towards cx/gravel/road.

Steerers, axles etc change/will change on those bikes too. Many wouldn’t stop riding MTBs because they get stuck in an upgrade compatibility trap, perhaps they just rethink what an MTB really is. Maybe it also pushes people to reconsider the value of suspension products with compatibility challenges on high-wear bikes. What it also highlights is the real longevity of a good steel frame (and fork, potentially) – maybe too long?

What it also highlights is the real longevity of a good steel frame

Jameso, I normally agree with most of what you write 8) but this one I’m not so sure on. I had an 07 Rock Lobster 853, so a ‘good steel frame’. If I still had it i’d be struggling to find a decent suspension fork and despite what others have said I suspect 26 inch rims in due course. So my current ‘good steel frame’ (Mk 3 Soul) is fine fork wise as tapered…for a while, but no way will it be viable I suspect when it’s 7 odd yrs old, as I doubt quality wheeelsets will be available then in 26 size. I so hope I am wrong though !

My upgrade was driven by the tapered steerer so went down the 650b route hoping that it’ll see me right for a good few years. I certainly don’t believe all the marketing BS that’s been heaped on the whole 650b thing as coming from a 26″ HT and FS to one 650b FS I can’t tell any noticeable difference between the wheel sizes. The biggest change for me is the longer wheelbase and slack head angle.

Who knows they’ll probably be trying to flog 24″ as the next big thing again in a few years once the whole 650b thing has worn off.

I rarely agree with you, Z-11 – but when I do, I am in complete agreement.

(PS pics 3 and 4 for me).

Whats crazy, us that when you tell, for example, Americans about this, show them the photos of stuff like that , tell them that the trail is an old drove road that pre-dates the romans, explain that its open for anyone to ride, day or night, that you stop at a pub for a lunchtime pint or even stay overnight and continue the journey

they lap it up, they genuinely get it, they’ll happily come and pay money to take in even a tenth of that culture, while our own mountain bike ‘community’ are busy pretending it isn’t there, and are pissing about trying to ‘sell’ something that most of the people who actually ride bikes don’t want.

I saw an old mount vision being ridden the other day – ’98/99 ish? Probably covered more miles than my car, old bloke with a beard – they aren’t going to sell him a new bike with 8″ travel, yellow wheels and a pumping soundtrack!

ninfan – Member
I rarely agree with you, Z-11 – but when I do, I am in complete agreement.
(PS pics 3 and 4 for me).
Whats crazy, us that when you tell, for example, Americans about this, show them the photos of stuff like that , tell them that the valley was all tarmac only the year before…

Sorry, couldn’t resist that.

I agree though and ironically I think the current crop of bikes, spurred on by the “Enduro” <banghead> craze are possibly the very best go anywhere, do anything bikes ever made.

A bike that can climb but can also, in unskilled hands, tackle most DH routes in the UK is not a thing of fantasy. It’s just a shame, as you say, the diversity of riding is not really being ‘sold’ in the media.

As has been hinted at, and shown by the pictures above: more needs to be made of the broad range of truly great riding on offer in the UK. From trail centres to mountain hike-a-bikes to flat bridleways. I can see XC being rebranded into something like AdvEnduro or some such crap, as XC probably conjures images of lycra in established mtbers, or meaningless to beginners. Shame really, as crossing the country (off-road) is what mtbing is all about and what most of us ride most of the time.

AdvEnduro

Snappiness fail.

#Advro

Ianc sorry, what I meant was that we all buy into the lifespan of steel frames but perhaps it’s a false benefit when other parts are likely to change and outdate them. So we agree I think : )

the current crop of bikes, spurred on by the “Enduro” <banghead> craze are possibly the very best go anywhere, do anything bikes ever made.

Totally agree but if you’re in the saddle a lot of hours a week you’ll be spending a lot of time and £ on the bike. That can make you re-prioritise things like droppers, linkages and kashima coatings. There’s day-ride performance and there’s living with high-use long-term performance.
I guess what may be getting to some riders is the reality of keeping these dream ‘enduro’ or FS bikes running well when the ride is so good you end up using them a lot in average UK conditions.