More Ashcroft…

Won't they just up and go, leaving us with even less revenue?

Why on earth should he pay taxes here on foreign earnings?

Because he lives here, and aims to hold a position in the next Government?

It's common knowledge that the super-rich pay less tax than the rest of us. I think that is wrong regardless. However, someone who is trying to claim the moral authority to govern the rest of us needs to be seen to be "whiter than white".

He's a billionaire! He can actually afford to pay a decent amount of tax on his earnings and still never want for any material thing. But he doesn't. He prefers to play the power game of getting one over on the rest of us.

Won't they just up and go, leaving us with even less revenue

You mean if we ask them for the money they currently don't pay, they might go somewhere else and not pay it?

Not sure how that makes life here any worse for the rest of us?

I was under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they pay tax on all UK earnings and that they spend a fair amount of money in these isles thus contributing to our economy?
I agree that it sucks big time but maybe a little is better than nothing?

I don't think so. But then I think we need to move to a no growth economy.

Personally I'd be happy to see the back of all of these parasites (c.f) because any money they may put into the economy does very little to mitigate the vast amount of bad feeling they create.

The thing is, given the right political will, we can and do shut down funds, find the money trails, and persuade even the most recalcitrant tax haven countries like Monaco, and Switzerland to give up secrets. Remember the post 9/11 money laundering rules? That shut down any shadowy links to Al-Qa-ida within A WEEK.

We know where the money is, we know who has it, all we lack its the political will to do anything about it, and we are the poorer for it, not them…

Where was that quote from Michael Foot?

Tax Justice Network estimate that rich individuals "avoid" 13bn a year. (The top third of Britain's top 700 industries have paid no tax at all) Thats enough to pay off the deficit in 7 years.

i think that alone is enough to make one very angry

Then blame James Grdon Brown, the man responsible for it.

Stevie, you're very boring.

TJ – I see you're still saying the same things, but not responding to any of the reasonable challenges made to you – so, once again:

who did he negotiate this change in the agreement with? The cabinet office

i) So, since they were complicit in the deal throughout, do you think its fair and reasonable for Labour ministers to call foul now?

ii) Why are you not accusing the cabinet office of misleading people/parliament?

iii) can you please back up your repeated allegations of lying.…

He's a big fat liar, and despite all that money, is as thick as mince.

All he had to do was tell the truth, but he tried to be clever, charging the costs of opinion polls to avoid paying VAT, for one.

Dimwitted rich man who thinks he can buy influence…

Zulu – yawwwwnnnnnnnn.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/04/lord-ashcroft-who-knew-truth

This was the exchange at which it was settled that "permanent resident" could mean "long-term resident". However, Phillips insists he was just "crossing the Ts and dotting the Is", and says he was not aware of the implication of the conditions.

That puts James Arbuthnot, pictured, at the heart of the process that ended with Phillips downgrading Ashcroft's undertaking to become a "permanent resident" to "long-term resident". This conversation, before Phillips signed the peerage off, is the "subsequent dialogue" Ashcroft refers to in his statement declaring his non-dom status, and allowed him to continue to keep the majority of his financial affairs in the Caribbean.

Arbuthnot is of course a tory.

Lord Turnbull was cabinet secretary between 2002 and 2005. His appointment postdates the awarding of Ashcroft's peerage, but that hasn't stopped him expressing views. Yesterday he was reported as saying that it was incumbent on Hague as Ashcroft's sponsor for a peerage to ensure his pledge was fulfilled. He said: "We had been assured by Hague that this was the real deal. It turns out that Ashcroft is being economical with the truth, and that Hague fell for it."

Stevie, you're very boring

Aaaah, the Zanulabour method of dealing with a FACT you don't like. Mud sling. Pathetic. James Gordon Brown IS 100% responsible for his rich friends paying no tax, FACT. Shame it doesn't fit in with your left-whinge agenda, hey?

Stevie – you prejudice and hatred is showing. By saying Zanulabour you lose 98 credibility points and this

method of dealing with a FACT you don't like. Mud sling. Pathetic

Is exactly what you have been doing. folk attack a Tory – you attack labour whan there is nno defence of the torys lies and deceit

As I have told you before Jerry, Labour lost my respect when they lied and betrayed the country over the EU Constitution.

Leftys whining about rich folk not paying tax-and then refusing to blame the man responsible-James Gordon Brown is hypocritical and nonsenical-and I am glad to point that out no matter what tantrum you throw.

So – xenophobe or racist?

No lies over the EU constitution as it was never adopted so no need for a referendum . In the UKs best interests so no betrayal.

I'd love to know why you think ashcrofts tax avoidance in Browns fault? Nice piece of doublethink there

Stevie, you are boring because you never expand one post beyond name calling. adding the word "FACT" in capitals doesn't actually help a great deal.

Come on, develop your point. How is Gordon Brown (I think we all know who I'm talking about even leaving off the James bit) 100% responsible for his rich friends (and by adding the word "his" I guess you mean current arrangements only apply to labour supporters?) paying no tax?

Is it just because he is the PM and therefore *everything* is his fault?

So – xenophobe or racist?

Sorry Jerry but if you are going to stoop that low you can just bore off.

No lies over the EU constitution as it was never adopted so no need for a referendum . In the UKs best interests so no betrayal

Rubbish, huge swathes of our sovereignty were signed away. The Constitution was there in all but name, Brown broke a manifesto pledge and betrayed the nation.

I'd love to know why you think ashcrofts tax avoidance in Browns fault?

And you won't get away with your silly lies either, I never said Ashcrofts tax avoidance was Browns fault, I said he was responsible for the tax regime that allows the rich-including his cronies-to pay little or no tax. Being as he has been in charge of Britains finances for 13 years who else is bloody responsible?

And you, PRPT are boring with your dull, left-whinge diatribe. But, to answer your point-

Come on, develop your point. How is Gordon Brown (I think we all know who I'm talking about even leaving off the James bit) 100% responsible for his rich friends (and by adding the word "his" I guess you mean current arrangements only apply to labour supporters?) paying no tax?

Brown has been in charge of Britains finances for 13 years. He has served in a government with a large, workable majority. He could have closed those loop-holes, raised the tax levels on the rich (including his chums like Eric Daniels, Fred Goodwin, Lord Paul, Lord Sainsbury etc etc) any time he had wanted to. So why didn't he? Because Labour are now the party of the rich-as admitted so famously by Mandelson.

I notice you often get sleepy when your facts get shaky TJ…

So, TJ you still cannot demonstrate a single solitary lie[/i] told by Ashcroft despite repeatedly making that allegation, the closest you have so far come to is an editorial commenting "economical with the truth"

No lies over the EU constitution as it was never adopted

Hahahaha – nice double standards TJ

Regards the Cabinet office, all decisions made by the cabinet office are the responsibility of a minister, a Labour government minister – which member of the cabinet signed off on the decision to change the rules?

Fellas, there is a decent debate in there among the handbags..

The Constitution was there in all but name

Same as Ashcrofts pledge to be domiciled in the Uk and pay Uk tax?

Zulu – the lie is clear to anyone with half a brain. Edit – as I have demostrated a dozen times on this thread.

Even Hague was fooled by his lie and so was Cameron

Show me, show me just one quote where there is a lie told by Ashcroft TJ

Just one quote that you can prove to be not true – not an impression, not someone else's interpretation of the facts, not a supposition or presumption – one single solitary lie told by Ashcroft!

I have no problem with you accusing him of misleading, I have no problem with you accusing him of dissembling the facts – however you've specifically accused him of lying, and you know damn well you cannot back that up!

Zulu – no matter how you wish it away its a matter of public record.

His "solemn undertaking bla hblah blah"

Clear and obvious lie

i'm wading in here having not read page 2 so may have missed something but Stevie, if Dave gets in do you think he is gonna start taxing all Gordon's friends? I doubt it. I doubt Nick Clegg would either although Vince might have something to say about that. The politicians can't do anything, the super rich have them over a barrel. Us gullible lot down here look up to these politicians expecting them to look after us all and I am sure many of them want to, but really what can they do.

Zulu – finding a lie which is a fact is very difficult as generally only two people will ever know. Someone else's interpretation is generally how the political world works unfortunately (that and who shouts the loudest).

In that case Whippershapper, TJ should withdraw the allegation!

you're wriggling TJ – where is the single solitary lie that backs up your claim, show me!

whippersnapper-I don't know what the Torys would do. But there's one thing fer sure-we're all going to feel the pinch whoever gets in. The Tories will cut spending to try and evert disaster. Alternatively, Labour will carry on spending until we lose our AAA Rating and the country will go bust in a blaze of soaring interest rates and hyper inflation. I reckon it's called being betwixt a rock and a hard place. And Brown led us there.

Stevie said:

And you, PRPT are boring with your dull, left-whinge diatribe.

Like when I said this?

The whole thing would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. The only reason any of this stuff is important is because both the main parties are so useless, and I suspect that the party we will end up with making decisions that hugely effect our lives will be the one who didn't screw up last.

It's a bit like pass the parcel, where you know that inside the final layer of wrapping paper is a turd.

You prove my point. You are boring because you don't get beyond name calling AND maybe the reason is that you don't even bother to read what other people read.

You're like one of Pavlov's dogs. You see a key word and off you go.

And before anyone else says it, yes I know Pavlov's dogs couldn't read.

Or could they?

Are you in Egypt Zulu?

In his 2000 statement he said "permanent resident" which means full UK taxpayer not "non Dom"

That is the lie as he never became a permanent Uk resident.

It was a metaphor.

The Tories will cut spending to try and evertcause disaster

#fixed it for you. this is what they did to cause the last depression – cutting spending deepens and lengthens recessions – see load of examples over the years from 30s usa to 80s Uk

lose our AAA Rating

regardless of what the agencies say it's long gone already Im afraid.

the Uk pays 90bps more for it's debt than other AAA rated countries like Germany. Ratings follow the market, not lead it.

Currently it costs about £90k to insure £1m of UK government debt. That's about the same as Chile which is only A+ and twice as much as the USA and Germany which are true AAA.

In his 2000 statement he said "permanent resident" which means full UK taxpayer not "non Dom"

Still wriggling – Mefty's already covered that one – He stated that was his intention and he later negotiated a change to that, agreed by the cabinet office, to an agreement that he would become a '"long term resident" – all above board, all agreed by the cabinet office.

Quite specifically he has never said that he is a permanent resident or a UK Domicile – quite categorically no lies – Next please…

You are in Egypt aren't you?

Thats as clear a piece of deceit as one can see. Of course as blinkered and stupid as you are you will never admit this but when torie grandees, tory papers, the cabinet secretary all say this was deceit………….?

So clear attempt to obfuscate and mislead deliberately which is a lie in my book. Of course in your alice in wonderland world a lie becomes the truth – newspeak I believe its known as

You prove my point. You are boring because you don't get beyond name calling AND maybe the reason is that you don't even bother to read what other people read

More dull hypocrisy. You started with the name calling, or had you forgotten that? You are a fool, you don't know me from Adam yet carry on with the assumptions.

The worst thing about all of this for me, is that Ashcroft hasn't even broken the Law.

He's altered the shape of British politics, with money hoarded away in a tax haven, (where he pays no tax at all) but obviously finds the idea of helping to fund this country's schools hospitals, and defence completely beneath him. The Conservative party then engaged in a 10 year cover up, that tells you all you need to know about how they'd run the country. By taking Ashcroft's money callmedave tells us he'd rather protect private interests over the public good. Made to choose between the public purse and the tiny minority interests of the super-rich, he chose that latter. I think it's safe to assume that if he gets to no 10, he'd carry on.

This revolting behaviour that both Labour and the Conservatives indulge in, is perfectly legal…The rest of us pay our taxes in full on time, and these parasites (some-one who enjoys the benefits of something without paying their share) who can shout louder than us with donations get away with paying nothing.

Tax Justice Network estimate that rich individuals "avoid" 13bn a year. (The top third of Britain's top 700 industries have paid no tax at all) Thats enough to pay off the deficit in 7 years.

This sums the situation up more than anything, a rich elite few hijacking the political system for their own gain, its been going on a bloody longtime. Micheal foot, lefty though he was, had the right idea:

and if you ask me about those insoluble economic problems that may arise if the top is deprived of their initiative, I would answer 'To hell with them.' The top is greedy and mean and will always find a way to take care of themselves. They always do."

The Tories will cut spending to try and evert disaster.

But create a disaster by making more unemployed. Its not just the public sector jobs that will be affected by this.

Alternatively, Labour will carry on spending until we lose our AAA Rating and the country will go bust in a blaze of soaring interest rates and hyper inflation.

The AAA rating is just politically motivated economists scare mongering. As for soaring interest rates and hyper inflation, we are not Zimbabwe. Your scaremongering language is about a year and a half out of date.

#fixed it for you. this is what they did to cause the last depression – cutting spending deepens and lengthens recessions – see load of examples over the years from 30s usa to 80s Uk

LOL Jerry, very good. I guess you are a Keynesian like Brown-truly economics from the playing fields of Eton. How long do you think theUK can carry on borrowing £1,500,000,000 per day as we did in January? We are currently borrowing £1 out of every £4 we spend. That, my friend, is insane.

I wasn't name calling, I was putting forward my opinion.

What assumptions did i make?

clear attempt to obfuscate and mislead deliberately which is a lie in my book

Here's the problem, unfortunately 'your book' is not the dictionary – you did not accuse him of obfustucating, you did not accuse him of misleading – you specificallly accused him of lying

to speak untruthfully with the intention of deceiving… an untrue statement deliberately used to mislead,

You cannot demonstrate to me a single untrue statement made by Ashcroft!