Mick Lynch for PM

You’ve split my quote to misquote me and distort what I’ve said Trailmonkey. The change I’m talking about is technological.

I haven’t misquoted you at all, I’ve copied and pasted your own words. The only reason for reversing the two sentences was because that made more sense when replying. Apologies if that’s made you feel misinterpreted.

The point I’m trying to make is that technological changes have happened already across industry and society as you yourself have pointed out. You can’t accuse him of being resistant to change when he’s trying to reverse what is by now the status quo.
The status quo is not going to help his members.

1) there is no left wing government on offer

We’re talking about a hypothetical situation whereby ML might or might not make a good PM. I think we can take it as read that in this hypothesis, he would be leading a left wing party.

2) the majority want a second ref on rejoining

Im unaware of any significant or consistent polling suggesting that ?

there is no “making brexit work” Its a complete nonsense. The only way brexit works is to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. thats the whole aim. Brexit is not the destination. its the tool

You are aware that there are nations in the world that are not part of the EU that manage to organise themselves, right? I mean that’s just a fact. You can argue that they might be better off if they were in the EU and I’d probably even agree but to say that there’s no way of existing without the EU is just demonstrably untrue.

I provided some links to newspaper articles on the polling.

IMO there is no making brexit work because all you can do is mitigate the damage.  there is no advantage to us in being outside the EU

I provided some links to newspaper articles on the polling.

IMO there is no making brexit work because all you can do is mitigate the damage. there is no advantage to us in being outside the EU

In fairness you linked to an opinion piece and two reports rather than the polling itself. Any evidence that U.K. voters have any intention of revisiting the issue would be reflected in strong polling for the Lib Dems no ? The opposite is true.

So if you state that you can mitigate the damage then you are agreeing that you can make it work. Worse off? Possibly/ probably. Unworkable? Demonstrably untrue.

to me “making brexit work” is making the UK a better and richer place outside the EU than it could have been inside.  thus there is no making brexit work as we will never be better off outside it than inside

Are you really claiming those newspaper articles are making it up and their are reporting falsehoods?

I think the argument that, ‘Other countries make their economies work outside the EU’ ignores the fact that the UK is an island that is almost entirely surrounded by the EU or countries that are in the CU/SM. If you can give me an example of a country where every single one of it’s immediate neighbours is in a EU-like union and that one country is thriving or even managing then I’m all ears.

It’s one thing to be an isolated country when all your neighbours are isolated to a similar extent. It’s quite another to be an isolated country when all your neighbours are in an economic union.

I simply can’t see any way to make Brexit work unless your definition of work means being better off than North Korea.

Are you really claiming those newspaper articles are making it up and their are reporting falsehoods?

No, I’m pointing out that you haven’t linked to polling, just articles. Opinion pieces are just that. Also, it’s a fact that pro referendum parties are absolutely nowhere in U.K. election polling. Are you denying that?

to me “making brexit work” is making the UK a better and richer place outside the EU than it could have been inside.

So, subjectivity when objectivity disproves the statement that

there is no “making brexit work” Its a complete nonsense

Also, it’s a fact that pro referendum parties are absolutely nowhere in U.K. election polling. Are you denying that?

there is only one UK wide party and thats so tainted by being tory enablers that they are effectively out of it in a FPTP election

In Scotland you see pro rejoin parties with 50% of the vote.

there is no “making brexit work” Its a complete nonsense

Is also your subjective opinion

Argee – folk on here are fed up of brexit discussions. If you want to know about the advantage to scotland of independence and joining the EU pm me. I can list dozens. I ain’t gonna discuss brexit no more on here

*everyone breaths sigh of relief*

This promise didn’t last long! 🤣🤣

Sorry 🙂

I think the argument that, ‘Other countries make their economies work outside the EU’ ignores the fact that the UK is an island that is almost entirely surrounded by the EU or countries that are in the CU/SM. If you can give me an example of a country where every single one of it’s immediate neighbours is in a EU-like union and that one country is thriving or even managing then I’m all ears.

I think you’re rather ignoring the fact that I’ve repeatedly stated that we’d probably be better off in.
I think you’re also ignoring the fact that ‘making Brexit work’ could mean making the U.K. similar to Norway/ Switzerland , or is it now the Ultra Remainer point of view that Brexit can only mean hardline , total Brexit ? Irony meters exploding all around.
Examples of countries in Europe managing to survive outside of the EU are in the Balkans, Turkey, Russia?

to me “making brexit work” is making the UK a better and richer place outside the EU than it could have been inside.

That is as objective a measure as you’ll ever find. Again you’re trying to argue for the sake of it, Trailmonkey, this time with TJ.

It’ll always be making the best of a bad job, getting soaked and cold in bed because some **** took the roof off your house. Short of putting the roof back you’re always going to be colder and wetter unlike the **** who took your roof off and still live in a watertight palace.

Is also your subjective opinion

No, it’s totally objective. Many countries survive outside of the EU.

Mick is resistant to change and I don’t see that as a quality in a politician…
…However a rail network is very much a part of the future and the future is higher tech trains and infrastructure run by fewer people.

I don’t think this is a fair criticism of ML. It’s often how he’s portrayed, but when he’s challenged in interviews or debates he’s VERY clear that not only does he accept change, he makes the point that the railways have been constantly changing and reducing workforce numbers throughout their history, with the cooperation of the unions. What he is fighting for is change that doesn’t screw over his members completely, which is entirely his remit.

I think it’s reasonable to think that evolutionary change of an industry doesn’t have to mean worse terms and conditions for the fewer staff that remain. However companies run for profit will seek to exploit their workforce to the greatest degree that they can get away with so it’s up to unions to oppose this.

He also makes the point many of the members are very open to retirement/redundancy and the only thing he’s opposed to is COMPULSORY redundancies. This is a negotiating position and he’s seeking to strengthen the hand of his members rather than fight the tide, again a totally reasonable thing for a union rep to do.

He’s portrayed by the press as a Luddite, Skargillesque figure unwilling to accept any modernisation but that’s a very Tory press led characterisation; it’s not how he actually comes across at all if you listen to him talk.

Examples of countries in Europe managing to survive outside of the EU are in the Balkans, Turkey, Russia?

**** me your aspirations are low!

I think you’re also ignoring the fact that ‘making Brexit work’ could mean making the U.K. similar to Norway/ Switzerland , or is it now the Ultra Remainer point of view that Brexit can only mean hardline , total Brexit ? Irony meters exploding all around.

I deliberately said countries that were closely aligned with the EU within the Single Market or Customs Union or with whatever arangement the Swiss have that means they can’t kick all the foreigners out. Every country that surrounds the UK is either full EU members, members of the Customs Union, or members of the Single Market and, crucially, have to surrender some of their sovereignty to the EU.

I’ve heard vague noises about ‘better relations’ with the EU but I’ve heard nothing about the sacrificing of sovereignty that is essential to make any real world cooperation with the EU work. As long as sacrificing sovereignty is off the table there will be no ‘making Brexit work’.

Examples of countries in Europe managing to survive outside of the EU are in the Balkans, Turkey, Russia?

Countries in the Balkans, Turkey, and Russia are countries that are making life outside the EU work? If that’s what you class as ‘making Brexit work’ then yes, I’m sure by your standard Brexit will work just fine.

And besides, none of the Balkan countries are entirely surrounded by the EU. Turkey is already in a Customs Union with the EU and therefore given up some sovereignty. And it’s not surrounded by EU aligned countries.

Russia, really?

it’s not how he actually comes across at all if you listen to him talk.

I have, and I don’t read the Tory press unless it’s linked on here which isn’t very often and often behind a paywall so I can’t see it. Unless you consider the Guardian and Indpendant Tory press.

It’s not only about “compulsory redundancies:

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/rail-strikes-january-rmt-aslef-union-network-rail-b2256432.html

Countries in the Balkans, Turkey, and Russia are countries that are making life outside the EU work? If that’s what you class as ‘making Brexit work’ then yes, I’m sure by your standard Brexit will work just fine.

**** me your aspirations are low!

You do realise how xenophobic that sounds right ?

I have, and I don’t read the Tory press

Well you’re doing a good job of partying their editorials! Osmosis?

It’s not only about “compulsory redundancies:

I definitely didn’t suggest it was JUST about that. I think I mentioned terms and conditions of remaining staff?

Have you watched the unedited video of ML’s appearance before a select committee? It’s both entertaining and more informative of his actual positions than his numerous clashes with ‘journalists’ which are quite fun to watch but very shallow on content.

You do realise how xenophobic that sounds right ?

You can recognise the respective levels of quality of life and economic development without being xenophobic.

You’re running out of sensible arguments and resorting to inappropriate insult, Trailmonkey.

I refuse to believe you really think Russia is a model of how to enjoy prosperity outside the EU, it’s nonsense.

No it’s not, they’re all examples of societies that manage to exist outside of the EU. Few of which has the advantages of being the 6th largest economy in the world.

I haven’t insulted anyone Edukator, you’re the one who seems to think that being like Turkey or the Balkan states isn’t aspirational enough.
What is it about those countries that you specifically disapprove of?

What is it about those countries that you specifically disapprove of?

A question to put works in my mouth. You’re really making full use of classic underhand STW tactics today TrailMonkey. I’ve said nothing about approval, I’ve cited the quality of life and and level of economic activity which you’ll find quoted in statistical tables based on objective criteria.

What he is fighting for is change that doesn’t screw over his members completely, which is entirely his remit.

And screw the traveling public. I am not aware of a strong desire by the traveling public for getting rid of train guards, ticket offices, and station staff.

Why don’t you tell us which aspects of their respective economies you think are good, trailmonkey?

But regardless, apart from Russia these countries are poor examples of what the UK is trying to accomplish. The Balkan states have given up sovereignty to the EU by being members of the CEFTA and most seem keen to give up more in order to become full members.

Turkey has given up some sovereignty in order to join with the EU in a Customs Union.

Russia is a good example of a country that has ceded no sovereignty to the EU so I guess you’ve got me there. But is it really that xenophobic to say that Russia is not an example of a country we should aspire to be?

I’ve said it before but making Brexit work is going to mean giving up sovereignty to the EU. There is no other way.

That means rejoining. Whether we go the whole way and become full a EU member, or join the Customs Union, or the Single Market, or come up with a free trade agreement. They all entail giving up sovereignty and ‘joining’ to a greater or lesser extent.

Brexit is sovereignty as we are constantly told. Brexit cannot be made to work.

No, it’s totally objective. Many countries survive outside of the EU.

The difference is, all of those countries were never in the EU in the first place. They haven’t just had 40 years of trade and economic integration forcibly removed.

Turkey, really? The Turkey that’s been trying for years to join the EU and been refused so often due to their appalling human rights record to a point that talks have completely fallen apart? The Turkey that Leave.EU claimed (lied) were joining the EU in order to scare people into voting leave? That Turkey?

There is only one criteria for ‘Making Brexit work’ and that is to be demonstrably better off outside the EU than, that was the claim the leavers made, 52% of the population knew it was a lie, many more are now slowly realising it. Brexit will not work as we will not be as well off outside the EU than we were in it. Even if we rejoin we will not be as well off. As for countries existing ourptside the EU, I’d like GB to do a little more than exist, I’d like it to prosper and be a beacon of progressive politics, something which was much more likely inside the EU as there were some constraints on the mad things our politicians could do.

This is why people like ML and Corbyn wanted out, they have a deluded belief they can do radical things (like subsidise the hell out of everything) that the EU would not have allowed. The reality for the likes of Lynch is Labour laws are more likely to be tightened and not in the favour of the employee.

EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Jesus Christ.

“Making Brexit work as well as possible in the short/medium term” – that clearer?

Brexit has happened. Even if a second referendum is called tomorrow, and the UK re-applies to Join the EU as soon as practically possible. And then if the EU are magnanimous and offer non-punitive terms for rejoining… how long is that going to take? 7 years? 10 years? 15?

In the meantime…….. how much would you like your quality of life to decline? THATS the most pressing issue.

People with their fingers in their ears refusing to even engage with the idea of trying to have Brexit (which has happened) not be as big an unmitigated disaster as it has the potential to be – have the same problem as ML supporting Brexit in the first place: it’s an ideological position which ignores the reality of the situation (Brexit has happened, and we have to find a way to make it work “as well as possible in the short/medium term”).

Brexit allows the Tories to “Turbo Tory”, and THAT is what is causing the damage. Just because we’ve left the EU doesn’t suddenly mean that we have to lower our standards from what they have been – it’s the Tories who are choosing to do that – and the fact that they are choosing to do that is the main reason that we can’t get a decent trade deal. As others of said, there are a number of countries who are Europe-adjacent who are able to not be a complete **** basket-case. Just like there are plenty of other countries with nationalized and/or automated rail services that work very well.

The main priority has to be to remove the Tories from power, and stop this race to the bottom which benefits nobody except the top 0.05%. The public want well-funded and well run public services – which are currently (all?) on their knees because of the Tories. The labor party are the only realistic way to pull the UK back from the brink, anyone not voting for labor because they are not pledging to have another referendum is as bigger part of the problem as ML supporting it because it allowed for the purest re-nationalization of his industry.

In the meantime…….. how much would you like your quality of life to decline? THATS the most pressing issue.

I don’t.  Thats why I want brexit reversed because until brexit is reversed the decline is inevitable and labour are offering tinkering around the edges not significant change and their brexiteer stance makes any significant improvement impossible

Brexit is not over and never will be as its the single most damaging to the UK political thing in my lifetime.  There is no making brexit work even if you add the caveat of “as wlll as possible”  Its not possible to make it work at all

Labour are incapable of pulling the UK back from the brink while they support brexit.

Oh – and the brexit thread is over there

As others of said, there are a number of countries who are Europe-adjacent who are able to not be a complete **** basket-case.

Most countries who are EU adjacent have ‘joined’ the EU to a greater or lesser extent. They have given up some sovereignty in order to be more closely aligned with the EU.

People think rejoining is a binary thing. It’s not. Even full EU members have different levels of ‘joining’. Sweden and Denmark still aren’t using the Euro, for example. Once you get outside the full EU members you are looking at countries that are EFTA members, CEFTA members, and Turkey which has it’s own Customs Union with the EU, and Switzerland which can’t kick all the foreigners out even after they’ve had a referendum saying they want to kick all the foreigners out.

Almost every EU adjacent country has a relationship with the EU that involves giving up sovereignty and has therefore ‘joined’ to an extent.

The UK is adamant it can ‘make Brexit work’ whilst giving up no sovereignty whatsoever. This is impossible.

Rejoining, even if it’s not rejoining as full EU members, is the only way to ‘make Brexit work’. At which point it’s no longer Brexit.

Thats why I want brexit reversed because until brexit is reversed the decline is inevitable and labour are offering tinkering around the edges not significant change and their brexiteer stance makes any significant improvement impossible

Brexit is not over and never will be as its the single most damaging to the UK political thing in my lifetime. There is no making brexit work even if you add the caveat of “as wlll as possible” Its not possible to make it work at all

Brexit cannot be “reversed”. There’s no putting the genie back in the bottle – sorry to break that to you. The UK can re-join at some point in the future, but until then… what are you going to do?

I completely agree about how bad brexit is BTW, but:

People with their fingers in their ears refusing to even engage with the idea of trying to have Brexit (which has happened) not be as big an unmitigated disaster as it has the potential to be – have the same problem as ML supporting Brexit in the first place: it’s an ideological position which ignores the reality of the situation (Brexit has happened, and we have to find a way to make it work “as well as possible in the short/medium term”).

The UK can re-join at some point in the future, but until then… what are you going to do?

Join the single market and honour one of the brexit pledges made to us.

"Where's the Labour front bench? When are they going to stand up with rest of the labour movement?"

Mick Lynch takes aim at Keir Starmer for his absence in a barnstorming speech defending the #RightToStrike. pic.twitter.com/y2Vmpn09EK

— PoliticsJOE (@PoliticsJOE_UK) January 16, 2023

That’s proper fighting talk.

Reminded me of Keir Starmer’s speech at the Labour Party Conference.

What’s with the attack on “lawyers”…?! Sounding more like a typical politician than a focused representative for his union members there. Maybe even a populist one. It’s rousing rhetorical stuff for sure, but is it the way to serve his members best? Perhaps he does fancy himself as PM.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/mick-lynch-warns-at-trade-union-rally-against-ultra-right-causing-division/311962391.html

I think he would struggle as a PM, especially in the current UK political setup, where popularism rules. Yes, he is a great union rep and advocate for collectivism. Being a politician involves making laws, drawing together different groups and being able to cover a wide range of topics, though. Starmer has a better background for this – he just needs to follow Mick’s example and start appealing directly to the people.