Mick Lynch for PM

And arguably more successfully, if looking at safety records.

But ignoring the fact that planes work in three dimensional space, where trains only move in one (faster/slower)

Isn’t something like 98% of a flight done by auto-pilot, the pilots are only there for take-off and landing, then as a back-up for the rest of the time?

I’m not sure how the pay compares, but it seems that train drivers do a lot more than pilots.

There are many rail systems around the world that are partially or fully automated, so the potential for some level of ‘auto-driver’ clearly exists. The technical implementation for UK rail infrastructure would probably need a chunk of investment to update and standardise things, but actually taking any of those tasks off the driver would be a huge political challenge.

But ignoring the fact that planes work in three dimensional space,

Which means that they have loads of room for error!

I had no idea that walking was a more dangerous form of transport in the UK than cycling :

https://www.statista.com/statistics/300601/average-number-of-fatalities-according-to-transport-in-the-united-kingdom/

I’ll remember that the next time I’m told “I won’t cycle as it’s too dangerous”.

Edit: The stats in the link above only refer to “air”, I believe that the overwhelming majority of air related fatalities involve private planes, not commercial planes. So flying on commercial planes is even safer than the figures suggest.

I had no idea that walking was a more dangerous form of transport in the UK than cycling :

Have you not been listening?  🙂  Ive been banging on about that for years.  walking helmets make as much sense as cycling ones

walking helmets make as much sense as cycling ones

You walk at the same speed as you cycle – about 30mph downhill?

The human body didn’t evolve to handle impacts into solid objects at speeds of over 5 or 6 mph.

Have you not been listening? 🙂 Ive been banging on about that for years. walking helmets make as much sense as cycling ones

just off to get some milk from the shop 😂

“The technical implementation for UK rail infrastructure would probably need a chunk of investment to update and standardise things”

A chunk of investment is an understatement

For example to automate the service in the South East would require changing the entire infrastructure.  Signalling would need changing and look how long it took to resignal London Bridge!  In addition all the third rail DC would need changing to overhead AC.  Plus all the new rolling stock.  It would require billions of pounds.

There is talk of it happening where I drive but the mooted date is well into the 2070’s

BREAKING?| The government has announced anti-strike legislation.

When workers democratically vote to strike, they can be forced to work and sacked if they don’t. This is wrong, unworkable, and almost certainly illegal.

— Trades Union Congress (@The_TUC) January 5, 2023

Our public services are already deep in a staffing crisis. But this government has gone from clapping key workers to threatening them with the sack if they take lawful action for a pay rise. It will only push more people away from essential jobs in public services, harming the UK

— Trades Union Congress (@The_TUC) January 5, 2023

Labour have already said that they’ll repeal these laws by the way, before we start the “all the same” stuff.

I had no idea that walking was a more dangerous form of transport in the UK than cycling :

https://www.statista.com/statistics/300601/average-number-of-fatalities-according-to-transport-in-the-united-kingdom/

Are joking or trolling? Because this does not show that walking is more dangerous than cycling.

The tweets by the TUC really do highlight the shortsightedness of voting for Brexit to “allow”  for nationalisation of your industry when the referendum is conducted during a Tory administration. If you can’t make the leap of imagination (as many folks pointed out at the time) that leaving the EU threatens worker rights legislation far far more presciently than it allows an environment where nationalisation becomes achievable. You open yourselves up to accusations of allowing your ideology to get in the way of the day to day practicalities of your member’s [already hard-won] rights.

It’s all very well to claim that you’d continue to “fight” for those to be returned should they be lost, but it’s damned site easier not to allow oneself to be maneuvered into potentially losing them in the first place. Having to fight the same battle over again removes the shine from Lynch as a negotiator.

Are joking or trolling?

You have already established earlier today that I am a troll who should be ignored. To remind you here’s your long spiel :

Gents
Do not feed the trolls. We can all see you mean well, but Ernie entered this conversation earlier with a crappy motte and bailey fallacy and has been shooting out other fallacy bait and intellectual dishonesty ever since.
He does not represent the majority opnion on here, or in the country, I think he does not even represent his own opinon. So why are you all wasting your time filling up a decent discussion by arguing with attention seeking trolls? You have to learn not scratch that little mossie bite.

Why don’t you take your own advice?

There are many rail systems around the world that are partially or fully automated, so the potential for some level of ‘auto-driver’ clearly exists

It already exists.The Elizabeth Line trains are fully equipped with auto-drive, though there is a Driver on them still. When they terminate at Paddington, the Driver can get out, press a button, then the train automatically travels to the next junction,waits for the signal, then comes back into the adjacent platform. The Driver then gets back on to travel back the way they arrived. i read that the Central Core of this has to be automatic once the 24+ trains per hour are working, as a manual driver cannot keep to the timetable, and once one train is 2 minutes late, it backs up the whole system for hours afterwards.
2 of the Tube lines are automatic, and IIRC, London Bridge to Kings Cross, and , of course the Docklands are automatic, and has been for 20+ years.
The ECML is getting new signalling now to allow this to happen too. Once it has been proven on a main line, it will be rolled out across the Country, they are doing away with physical signals, and doing it all via radio links. Capital cost is around half of the cost of new signalling.
Even heavy freight engines have driver assist functions that tell the driver to accelerate/slow down etc. It was found some drivers used 10% more fuel on a trip, and their driving style was causing this, so the aids give a definite financial incentive to the Companies.

How much did the “The Elizabeth Line” cost? How long did it take to build? We’ve have a government that has cancelled all new lines north of Crewe. At the current rate, new lines and upgraded lines will be ready for driverless trains at some point next century. It’s all pie in the sky to think driverless trains on our existing ancient infrastructure can be part of any plan for transport over the next couple of decades. Driver aids are more about coping with increasing the utilisation of these lines than they are about making it any easier or cheaper to train drivers, never mind do away with them.

can’t get medical help for a chronic illness,

The pool of skilled Spanish staff that NHS could rely upon has been denied them by leaving and is directly attributable.

If you’re struggling to pay your electricity bill

That will be due to our government not being able to follow the lead of EU who are levying extra charges on the producers to reduce bills. One has less of a voice than 27, directly attributable.

don’t have enough food

Prices went up as food rotted un-picked in the fields. Guess where that labour used to come from?

There’s three that affect the poorly paid/provided for. If I could be bothered I could probably find causes behind the other items but these are the three main ones.

The depressing thing is that Brexit is just allowing the Tories to “Turbo-Tory”.

Brexit was always going to be a terrible, regressive step for the country. However, with the right government, the damage could have been more successfully limited and some benefits realized (And before somebody wheels out the “name one benefit of Brexit!” line…… I don’t know what they are, but the reality is that Brexit has happened, and we have to find some way of making it work for us).

The problem is that The Tories are so far from being the “right” government that it’s beyond parody. They are using Brexit to continue their ideological mission of asset-stripping the country in order to line their own pockets, and those of their mates/donors. Everything that they do is to further this singular aim – and it’s always done at the expense of the British public.

Any country governed by these kind of people is going to be run into the ground, and Brexit has just accelerated this decline.

Now is not the time for navel-gazing, and debating ideology….. there is a very urgent need to remove these amoral kleptomaniacs from power, and install a government who is actually interested in doing what they are supposed to be doing: Governing for the good of the people.

If Starmer’s policy was that he was going to re-open the pandora’s box of Brexit if he won – it would allow the Tories to regain all the votes from people who were “fed up of hearing about it”…. the Tory comms team would have a field day. It’s far better for him to have a policy of “making brexit work” which appeals to (almost) everybody, and short-term, is really what needs to happen anyway.

I believe that anyone who voted/supported Brexit is fundamentally unsuited for a leadership role (unless you are one of those people who stood to directly benefit) because it required that you ignored facts/reality in favor of ideology.

However, I can criticize Mick Lynch for his support of Brexit – but appreciate the way in which he’s winning/maintaining public support for the strikes, and shining a light on the shit-**** ery of the modern tory party.

PM, no. Union leader, also no. Union spokesperson – brilliant

there is a very urgent need to remove these amoral kleptomaniacs from power, and install a government who is actually interested in doing what they are supposed to be doing: Governing for the good of the people.

I wholeheartedly agree, but there’s a fundamental flaw in this solution.

… the reality is that Brexit has happened, and we have to find some way of making it work for us

Why?

How long do you think it will take to rejoin the EU? On terms that the country would find acceptable?

That’s not a short term strategy. Even if that’s the long term goal, the reality is that the UK needs to find a way of making brexit work in the short term

LOL. You might as well say “Solar power isn’t a short term strategy for satisfying the UK energy demands. We have to make unicorn farts work in the short term”.

Why?

The EU is only going to consider a return for the UK if 1. the overwhelming majority of the population want it, and depending on what question you ask of folks, that isn’t clear. and 2. it is the settled policy of EVERY political party that has a outside chance of getting into power. I’d say that’s going to take anything between 10-30 years. In that intervening time, we’ve got to make the best of what we’ve got otherwise we’ll end up as some sort of dingy backwater, and I don’t want to live in a dingy backwater. I didn’t vote for it, but here we are (democracy etc etc)

Getting back to Lynch and the RMT, clearly their support for Brexit is shortsighted and will in time be a tactical error that I think they’ll come to regret. Inside the EU, workers rights are settled under law and his only battle is to nationalise his industry. As both France and Germany are effectively nationalised; it’s clearly possible. The only challenge will be in the form of defending the decision in court, so their central claim (the you cannot have nationalised railways inside the EU) is clearly just a political one, not a real one. Now outside the EU, the RMT have the battle of both defending worker’s rights and nationalisation, and workers rights will be challenged by successive Tory governments every time they’re elected into power. That is, after all, the point of Brexit for them.

Unless Mick Lynch actually wants to have that fight every four or five years with every Tory government (and that’s not beyond the realms of possibility) than he’s not done his workers any favours by supporting a Tory shaped Brexit.

The EU is only going to consider a return for the UK if 1. the overwhelming majority of the population want it,

Well, that’s not the case is it. The EU doesn’t – and I suppose can’t – overly care what “the overwhelming majority of the population” want. The overwhelming majority of the population doesn’t create legislation. We left in the first place due to the actions of one person.

The EU doesn’t – and I suppose can’t – overly care

Having been through Brexit, I think the EU will certainly pay attention to what the population of the UK broadly think. I think even it’s it’s the policy of both the Tories and Labour but isn’t very well supported by the public, the EU would be hesitant

Making Brexit work means allignment with the EU on standards, legislation, human rights, tax havens, anti-trust etc. so the barriers to trade are as low as possible. It means a Norway or Switzerland type deal and making whatever concessions and payments allow that.

Lynch operates in a microcosme and fails to recognise the importance of the interconnections between countries depsite representing people who work in the industries providing those connections.

Other union leaders have been guilty of the same errors. I briefly worked in Longbridge in 78, Red Robbo and his mob weren’t into collaborating and contributing to efforts to produce cars to compete with imports and other brands, they were intent on sabotaging the company that paid their wages with over 500 walkouts and indeed straight sabotage with more than just a spanner in the works. Then he got lynched. Scargill was as responsible as Thatcher for the mine closures, he went head to head with the government and lost, or should I say his members and the industry lost as a result of his lousy leadership.

I reckon Lynch is heading the same way, he’ll precipitate changes that would have been a slow evolution towards technical soulutions with natural wastage due to retirement and people moving one. It’s curious that the strikes concern the industry where he has more or less absolute power as Robinson and Scargill had, but his real leverage lies with trucks, but that’s another union. He should be patient and wait for a non-Tory government but is leading his members in what I predict is a self-destructive struggle as Union leader clashing with Tories before him. Learn from history Mr Mick.

Red Robbo and his mob weren’t into collaborating and contributing to efforts to produce cars to compete with imports and other brands, they were intent on sabotaging the company that paid their wages

a bit of convenient rewriting of history there. Robinson understood that the company needed to be successful in order to be able to share its success with its workers; it was the bosses, backed by the government that failed to recognise this.

“If we make Leyland successful, it will be a political victory. It will prove that ordinary working people have got the intelligence and determination to run industry”.

-Derek Robinson

What chance did the bloke have when bloody MI5 were deployed to discredit and disrupt him? FFS.

Having been through Brexit, I think the EU will certainly pay attention to what the population of the UK broadly think.

Perhaps. But, then do what?

It wasn’t unknown within the EU that there was at best a sliver of a majority in favour of leaving and that almost certainly vanished pretty rapidly. Yet we still left.

I think even it’s it’s the policy of both the Tories and Labour but isn’t very well supported by the public, the EU would be hesitant

Same argument. The EU was and is never going to attempt to overrule domestic policy. They’ll follow the rules because we have a representative democracy; what matters is what our Fuhrer Du Jour thinks, not the populace.

a bit of convenient rewriting of history there.

I was surrounded by people who worked at Longbridge, my mother worked there, my neighbour had a side line selling parts he nicked off the track, my uncle worked there, my father worked for a parts supplier. Until I was old enough to read a paper for myself I believed the shop steward to be my father’s boss because it was he who ran the workshop. I worked there myself in the Summer before the Winter of discontent, if anyone is rewriting history it’s not me. I had the union messages direct, first hand, and the last thing on their minds was producing quality automobiles efficiently, I could see where it was leading.

I went on to do “labour economics and industrial relations” as one of my university courses and studied various international models as well as the British story. The British partucularity was the fragmented UK union landscape which divided its members and made negotatiating with business leaders unduly conflictual and problematic. Multiple unions fighting their own little corner in a confrontational manner to the detriment of the general workforce. The status given to shop stewards and union leaders led them to feeling self-important and part of a political movement rather than servers of their members and the workforce in general. This inevitably led to politicisation of issues so pragmatism and cooperation gave way to idealism and a failure to compromise – and conflict that was destructive to all.

A union’s first duty should be to its members, present and future.

There’s three that affect the poorly paid/provided for. If I could be bothered I could probably find causes behind the other items but these are the three main ones.

They’re all problems that can be fixed outside of EU membership. It may be more expensive to do so, it may be more difficult, but they’re all things we can fix.

We’re the 6th largest economy in the world. We can afford to independently organise our society and look after our people.

@Edukator you are displaying the same attitude that the management in the 70’s and 80’s did. Co-operating is not something British management do. Instead of looking at the process in Germany and adopting something similar they went all in on winner takes all.
Ironically Kaizan has a place for worker engagement but British management sought to ignore that too when implementing quality solutions in the late 80’s. It’s no wonder UK is going backwards fast as managers see that the workforce has no business in decision making and don’t engage all of the talent that is available to them, nor do they see that they should pay for it.

Multiple unions fighting their own little corner in a confrontational manner to the detriment of the general workforce.

I’ve come across this sort of behaviour from time to time. Disappointing when a union rep can’t seem to understand the concept of ‘United we stand’, but failing to see the big picture is not a uniquely unionist trait.

I have far more frequently come across the adversarial approach TO unions being demonstrated by management though. It’s like they see them as the enemy automatically, rather than representing the work force that they espouse to value so highly (in words if not in actions).

@Edukator I don’t doubt your educational credentials; but your resulting opinions seem to have swayed somewhat to the right. Other opinions are available; see @sandwich ‘s excellent post above.

I have far more frequently come across the adversarial approach TO unions being demonstrated by management though.

Its odd how often the allegedly adversarial unions arent when its a foreign owned company and the senior/midlevel managers are from the companies home country.
USA companies obviously exempt from this.

<span style=”font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; font-size: 16px;”>”The ECML is getting new signalling now to allow this to happen too. Once it has been proven on a main line, it will be rolled out across the Country, they are doing away with physical signals, and doing it all via radio links. Capital cost is around half of the cost of new signalling.</span><br style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; font-size: 16px;” /><span style=”font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; font-size: 16px;”>Even heavy freight engines have driver assist functions that tell the driver to accelerate/slow down etc. It was found some drivers used 10% more fuel on a trip, and their driving style was causing this, so the aids give a definite financial incentive to the Companies.”</span>

A lot of that is not really correct.

Dedicated lines with dedicated, near homogeneous rolling stock (such as Docklands) can indeed be set up ‘autonomous’ (but near always still with a staff member to step in in case of fault – so not a massive ££ saving really).  If enough ££ and time is thrown at it.

ECML resignalling (East Coast Digital) which will go as far as Grantham (so only 1/3 of ECML) , will NOT be autonomous. Its having ETCS installed, and with ETCS  the driver still controls the train. ETCS is only a supervisory system to step in if/when the driver **** up. The signals are displayed in the cab rather than lights on sticks.  The ££ saving for NR is getting rid of maintenance on those lights on sticks signalling.

Throw in the massive complexity of a mainline (compared to say a single tube / metro line), inc different turn outs / crossing routes, different lengths of stations, level crossings where stupid people do stupid things, and the massive variability of the trains that will run over it (multiple units, loco hauled passenger trains of different lengths, masses, braking characteristics, power / traction effort,  tampers and other maintenance trains, old, new, and a myriad of permutations for freight, and its waaay more complex.

NOBODY has the political balls or will to spend the £££ to introduce fully automated mainline trains because it’ll take a lifetime (FFS ETCS started to be  be kicked over 30  years ago yet all we have is the Cabrian Line ‘trial’ so far with a small fleet of old disels units i stalled, and a few even older diesel locos). Or go through 15 years of continuous industrial unrest that will make the current strikes look like a small localised squabble.

So – train drivers driving trains are with us for a lot longer than anyone on this forum will be alive.

We’re the 6th largest economy in the world. We can afford to independently organise our society and look after our people.

That’s a curve which tapers off fast. Once you get past the USA and China it pretty much flatlines. And in any case, we aren’t tending upwards.

If we can do that then, why aren’t we?

If we can do that then, why aren’t we?

Because “tories”

of course we have plenty of money to have a fair and decent society with our GDP per capita.  the netherlands does, The Scandi countries do

Because “tories”

of course we have plenty of money to have a fair and decent society with our GDP per capita.  the netherlands does, The Scandi countries do

this is exactly it, and lots of embedded wealth/ownership/tradition.

We need to tax massive trades in the city where a huge wealth is generated, we need to ban offshoring and just tax at source end of story. Then we would have enormous tax receipts and a burgeoning health education and transport system.

However the people in charge would be a bit less rich so it will never happen. Humanity is screwed.

Before coming back to the farm I worked as a project coordinator on a multi-nation, EU-funded, research project. Of all the countries involved (9 EU States) only 2 of them were constantly adversarial and unable/unwilling to compromise on almost every aspect of the project. Of those, 1 of them was far worse than the other. The 2nd least able to compromise was the Netherlands. I probably don’t have to tell you which was the worst! As a nation of Empire building and 2 party FPTP politics, I guess we have such a high degree of exceptionalism and no experience of rule by compromise that it should come as no surprise really.

We left in the first place due to the actions of one person.

Who was that, then? If you say Boris you will have to show your working out.

The fact this thread is named “Lynch for PM” when a more rounded view shows him to have serious flaws, but can argue with soft southern shandies on the tv shows that populism is everything these days.

Instead of one dimensional characters we should look at all sides of people and take a closer look at all, not just whatever three word slogan they are peddling this week.

but your resulting opinions seem to have swayed somewhat to the right.

You can lean to the left and still prefer a system with fewer unions. The unions are then bigger stronger and represent all/most of the union members in a company rather than just a few. And also be opposed to the closed shop.

For the record in the most recent elections I’ve voted:

European elections: green
Local town elections: socialist
Législatives: en Marche/Renaissance
Présidentielle: Macron both rounds.

You can lean to the left and still prefer a system with fewer unions

that’s not what I was basing my throwaway 10 second opinion on though; it was where you readily placed the blame for the destruction of British industry in the 80s. It’s a complex and multifaceted subject for sure, but you seemed to be quick to blame unions wholeheartedly, rather than recognise the greed of the owners of the means of production and the ideologically driven Tory government who were prepared to use MILITARY INTELLIGENCE to undermine working class people daring to want to be recognised fairly for their part in wealth creation.

rather than recognise the greed of the owners of the means of production

Longbridge was state owned by a Labour government for the period I’ve referred to up to the Winter of discontent

British Leyland was partly nationalised in 1975 and shortly afterwards in 1979 Margret Thatcher started the process of fully re-privatising it again. Very little of BL problems stemmed from the short period that the government was a major shareholder.

It 1975 when BL was a complete mess and the government stepped in to save it from total collapse it had been under private control for decades.