Mick Lynch for PM

So what’s the alternative? Join the race to the bottom?

The alternative was membership of the EU that helped to protect employee rights in a number of ways.

As a union rep myself, I saw it in action.

Anti-competitive protectionism was never the way forward. Tories are always gonna tory, but with the EU they were more limited as to the harm they could do. As I think we are all seeing, at least those of us with our eyes open. People who are still too blinkered or stupid or deluded to see it are basically no use to anyone.

l only said “mostly” to hedge my bets because I figured if I said “only” you’d have pulled out some random non-European diplomat I’ve never heard of from 30 years ago in order to prove me wrong.

I don’t understand what battle you’re trying to win here.

Oh so it’s my fault that you came out with some nonsense about the EU being “mostly” run by Europeans! Not only am I responsible for what I write but now I am also responsible for you write! 😂

And I wasn’t trying to win any “battle”, I asked a straightforward question. Someone seemed to make a connection with the EU and brown people and I asked if there was one as it didn’t seem to me that there was.

For reasons best known to yourself you decided to take issue with my question. And then to complicate matters it turns out that you totally agree with me – you also don’t believe that there is anything intrinsically notable about brown people and the EU.

I have absolutely no idea what you arguing about. You seem to be arguing about something but I’ll be **** if I know what!

Gents
Do not feed the trolls. We can all see you mean well, but Ernie entered this conversation earlier with a crappy motte and bailey fallacy and has been shooting out other fallacy bait and intellectual dishonesty ever since.
He does not represent the majority opnion on here, or in the country, I think he does not even represent his own opinon. So why are you all wasting your time filling up a decent discussion by arguing with attention seeking trolls? You have to learn not scratch that little mossie bite.

I appreciate that the general consensus among some is that everyone should broadly share the same opinion on political threads, and that anyone who doesn’t play but that rule must by definition be a troll.

But as far as Mick Lynch’s political position is concerned, including his views on the EU, I doubt that a fag paper separates me and him.

If you believe that can’t be true, I can’t possibly agree with Mick Lynch and his opinions of the EU, no one else does, I must therefore be trolling, then fine – don’t bother challenging me.

I would be more than happy if every time I posted my personal opinion I wasn’t challenged, especially by people who can’t come up with anything more constructive than using the default “troll” response. Take your own advice and don’t reference my comments.

Getting back to the issue of “Mick Lynch for PM”, if the deal clincher is whether he supports rejoining the EU then it suggests that no one who feels it makes him unsuitable will be voting Labour. It also suggests views totally at odds with the wider public, unless of course those making the claim are merely trolling!

You’re right ernie that Labour’s position on the EU makes them impossible to vote for IMO. If that wasn’t enough, their bone-headed opposition to any meaningful electoral reform is another thing that’s hard to swallow.

I look forward to 5 years of Labour floundering in power as they fail abjectly to repair the harm the tories have done to the country (brexit being by far the largest part of this) and then another decade or more of tory pillage “because Labour isn’t working” or whatever slogan the Daily Hate prints. Sigh.

Well, they probably won’t manage 5 years, they will fall apart after 3.

You’re right ernie that Labour’s position on the EU makes them impossible to vote for IMO.

The “IMO” is the critical factor here, currently opinion polls are showing that up to half of the electorate would vote Labour if there was a general election tomorrow.

For all the attempts to keep STW free of dissenting opinions it is very much at odds with the wider public.

Although I appreciate that for some people this is a badge of honour.

For all the attempts to keep STW free of dissenting opinions it is very much at odds with the wider public.

Its really not.  maybe its at odds with the folk you mix with but the folk I mix with Brexit and Starmers backing of Brexit is a huge topic of conversation and a huge vote loser

I won’t vote labour because of Starmers stance on Brexit

But as far as Mick Lynch’s political position is concerned, including his views on the EU, I doubt that a fag paper separates me and him.

If you believe that can’t be true, I can’t possibly agree with Mick Lynch and his opinions of the EU, no one else does, I must therefore be trolling, then fine – don’t bother challenging me.

I normally decide whether someone is trolling or not based on whether they address my point or start talking about something else entirely.

I challenged you and Mike Lynch’s views on the last page. He (and you) said you can’t have a nationalised industry in the EU.

I said, technically you can’t, in practice you can. See SNCF and any number of other private companies where the government is the largest shareholder. Sure, there’s ‘competition’ from other privately owned companies and best of luck to them bidding against the government owned company.

But you ignored that, said something about brown people, and then accused everyone of ganging up on you.

That’s trolling.

Holyrood has taken Scotrail back into state control.  Not sure of the exact mechanism

Its really not

And then you confirm that it is by saying :

I won’t vote labour because of Starmers stance on Brexit

Have you not heard the news? Labour are on course to possibly winning their greatest electoral victory in history.

Or are you dismissing it all because of what your mates are telling you?

IMO Ernie is not trolling – trolling is being provocative to get a response.

What Ernie is doing is debating and using some fine debating technique – worthy of Oxford debating society

I don’t always agree with Ernie but his position is consistent and well thought thru and argued.

I won’t vote labour because of Starmers stance on Brexit

Same here, how I can I moan about it if I support it.
Starmer needs to give me and the million people that marched a glimmer of hope.

No Ernie – what I am stating is your statement ” it is very much at odds with the wider public.” is simply not so.  It may be amongst the folk you speak with but its false among the folk I speak with and in Scotland in general

I don’t always agree with Ernie but his position is consistent and well thought thru and argued.

Cool, then he (or Mick Lynch) should have no problem explaining why the difference between a nationalised industry and a private company whose majority shareholder is the government is so important that it’s worth throwing a huge tranche of workers rights on the Brexit bonfire.

But you ignored that, said something about brown people, and then accused everyone of ganging up on you.

That’s trolling.

Sorry I didn’t see your question, although if I had it wouldn’t have made much difference other than I would have acknowledged it.

I avoid getting into discussions about Brexit, it’s been done to the death, the referendum was over 6 years ago and there won’t be another one anytime soon. Carrying on the debate is pointless, a fact which even the Labour Party, led by an arch-remainer, has accepted.

And I haven’t accused anyone of ganging up on me, everyone appears to agree with me – there is nothing intrinsically notable about brown people and the EU. A couple of people seem to want to argue about something but I’m not entirely sure what.

I avoid getting into discussions about Brexit,

In modern Britain that must somewhat limit your conversation topics.

But OK, let’s ignore Brexit (pretend this is a hypothetical question about a set of circumstances completely unrelated to the B word) so that you (or Mick Lynch) can answer this question.

Why is the difference between a nationalised industry and a private company whose majority shareholder is the government so important that it’s worth throwing a huge tranche of workers rights on the bonfire?

I avoid getting into discussions about Brexit,

because its been shown to be an utter disaster and thus indefensible?  😉

I avoid getting into discussions about Brexit,

In modern Britain that must somewhat limit your conversation topics.

I can assure you that it doesn’t, the only time I ever see a conversation on brexit is on here. Every bleedin day.

Your conversations would be somewhat limited if you didn’t talk about brexit? No offence like, I’m sure that you are a great person, but I’m glad that I don’t ride with you! 😉

I can assure you that it doesn’t, the only time I ever see a conversation on brexit is on here. Every bleedin day.

And yet opinion poll after opinion poll shows that a vast majority of voters now think that Brexit was a mistake and would vote to rejoin if given the option.

I accept of course that rejoining will be a slow and difficult process. But I won’t vote for a party that doesn’t at least hold it out as a long-term possibility. If Labour chooses to chase the reactionary isolationist bigot vote, good luck to them, but they won’t get mine.

Your conversations would be somewhat limited if you didn’t talk about brexit?

Actually, I avoid talking about Brexit most days but then I do live in Norway.

I guess that next you’re going to say it’s none of my business since I don’t live in the UK as yet another deflection tactic to avoid answering the question I’ve asked you at least 3 or 4 times now. Just to head that off, I’m very much affected by Brexit, both in my own life and in my family’s life. I don’t really want to go into the specifics right now but just so you know, I very much have skin in the game.

Anyway, for the 4th (or is it 5th) time, why is the difference between a nationalised industry and a private company whose majority shareholder is the government so important that it’s worth throwing a huge tranche of workers rights on the bonfire?

What’s happened to the brexit thread? Seems like the dead and buried brexit issue is jumping from thread to thread but not the one it should be on so we can all ignore it.

It may be amongst the folk you speak with but its false among the folk I speak with and in Scotland in general

If we’re doing anecdotal evidence then may I submit my experience that all my arch-remainer lefty mates don’t ever talk about brexit and are still planning to vote labour at the next election. They are however utterly obsessed with tory incompetence, strikes, the failing health service, and spiralling cost of living. Brexit never gets a mention, and neither does Scotland for that matter 🙂.

And yet opinion poll after opinion poll shows that a vast majority of voters now think that Brexit was a mistake and would vote to rejoin if given the option.

And yet opinion after opinion poll shows an enormous and probably unassailable lead for a party who’s central policy is not to reverse brexit. Seems like all those people who think brexit was a mistake aren’t sufficiently animated enough about it to change their vote. It’s almost like they’ve realised that brexit isn’t really the problem.

Amongst my family and friends we have many cross border families.

Anecdote or not.  To say no one is talking about brexit – you can only say that about the circles you are in and its not a universal experience.

I fully accept its a non issue to some but its also still a live issue to some

Personally I will NEVER shut up about it and NEVER vote for a brexit party.  Reversing brexit is the single action that would improve the lot of the people of this country

Amongst my lefty pals I do not know of a single person who will vote labour and their embrace of Brexit is a major reason IMO

It’s almost like they’ve realised that brexit isn’t really the problem.

Or they are voting anti tory and holding their nose to vote labour?  The polls seem to suggest that rather more than brexit not being an issue

If we’re doing anecdotal evidence then may I submit my experience that all my arch-remainer lefty mates don’t ever talk about brexit and are still planning to vote labour at the next election.

This. Well, the brexit talk still happens, just not with you… 😉

Anyway, agree or not with Lynch (Mick not Che) on the need for Brexit to deliver left wing policies (I don’t) he puts across the interests and concerns of his members well, and pricks the lie bubbles the media and politicians float his way with ease… I think far more of the public are now aware of what the government are doing in this negotiation that they were pretending had nothing to do with them.

Imagine watching telly and jrm is spouting his brexit bs and having to agree with him.
Puke.

all my arch-remainer lefty mates don’t ever talk about brexit and are still planning to vote labour at the next election. They are however utterly obsessed with tory incompetence, strikes, the failing health service, and spiralling cost of living. Brexit never gets a mention, and neither does Scotland f

The danger of “I can’t vote Labour as they won’t reverse Brexit” is that the anti-Tory vote splits and they squeeze back through with FPTP.

Not getting all that we want may result in getting more of what we don’t want.

Reversing brexit is the single action that would improve the lot of the people of this country

I’d have thought the single action that would improve the lot of the people of this country would be removing the Tory Party from power as quickly as possible.

They’d done more than enough damage before we left the EU a couple of years ago.

They’d done more than enough damage before we left the EU a couple of years ago.

This.

And, importantly, removing the Conservatives from office can be achieved in a single day, with our votes. Rebuilding links with the rest of Europe is a multi decade journey. There is no quick fix… the Brexit process was one way, which is why more caution was required before committing to it.

Of course I accept that lots of people are currently saying they will vote Labour, whether holding their noses regarding Brexit, or just because they don’t care.

Like I said, good luck to them. I think they may be a bit less damaging than the Tories, they have some reasonable policies on some things. But I will never again be part of the “80% who voted for pro-Brexit parties”. And trying to cope with the effects of Brexit, without daring to mention the root cause, cannot and will not work and will probably tear the party apart in the process, as it has done to the Tories.

Isn’t something like 98% of a flight done by auto-pilot, the pilots are only there for take-off and landing, then as a back-up for the rest of the time?

I’m not sure how the pay compares, but it seems that train drivers do a lot more than pilots.

without daring to mention the root cause

Ignore people who tell you that voting for a party/candidate means that you must accept their whole programme for government. It’s nonsense. You can vote for a party and still voice and stick to your opposition to any/many of their policies.

Likewise, you can absolute support and be impressed by Lynch’s performance in the role he has without agreeing with him on everything.

I’m not sure how the pay compares, but it seems that train drivers do a lot more than pilots.

And arguably more successfully, if looking at safety records.

What’s happened to the brexit thread? Seems like the dead and buried brexit issue is jumping from thread to thread but not the one it should be on so we can all ignore it.

Thats the thing about Brexit, as much as people would like to ignore it, its effects impact across many issues, removing workers rights is just one of them

keep burrying your head in the sand though if its easier

If we’re doing anecdotal evidence then may I submit my experience that all my arch-remainer lefty mates don’t ever talk about brexit and are still planning to vote labour at the next election. They are however utterly obsessed with tory incompetence, strikes, the failing health service, and spiralling cost of living. Brexit never gets a mention, and neither does Scotland for that matter

Pretty much sums me up.
– Is Starmer Labour the perfect Labour party, very far from it.
– Is Starmer Labour the best option I have come election time, very much so.
(Of course the tory **** will still get 60% where I live but let’s pretend that is not the case)

And I wasn’t trying to win any “battle”, I asked a straightforward question. Someone seemed to make a connection with the EU and brown people and I asked if there was one as it didn’t seem to me that there was.

I gave you a straightforward answer. Twice now, I think.

For reasons best known to yourself you decided to take issue with my question.

I have no issue with your question, it’s perfectly valid. The “issue” is your unwillingness to accept a reply, choosing instead to leap on pointless minutiae. Look, squirrel!

I avoid getting into discussions about Brexit,

You’re not very good at it, are you.

I think I am. In fact I am constantly criticised for not engaging. I have to keep repeating that whether we stay or leave the EU is no longer an issue for most people. Except obviously on here.

I have to keep repeating that whether we stay or leave the EU is no longer an issue for most people. Except obviously on here.

And you keep being told that that is only true in some circles.  Here and amongst my family and friends europe wide its the key issue

If it’s still an issue when will the date of the next referendum be announced?

When london politicians stop lying?  😉

the majority of the population now understand its a mistake

Here and amongst my family and friends europe wide its the key issue

If you’re struggling to pay your electricity bill, don’t have enough food, can’t get medical help for a chronic illness, can’t get housing, are underpaid, are under skilled/under educated, or have a host of other problems which many, many people ( probably the majority) do, then you’d consider the EU issue to be largely irrelevant.

That’s because it is.

None of the above issues are totally attributable to leaving the EU and are completely fixable outside of it.

I’d love to be in the EU and I think it was a huge mistake to leave. But we did and endlessly whinging about it only divides the opposition to the Tories and strengthens their position.

Many of those issues cannot be fixed outside the EU

Its not whinging on about it.  Its continuing to point out the stupidity of it and making the brexiteers own the mess – which now includes the labourr party.  Its about keeping the number 1 issue at the forefront of debate.  Its about supporting the majority who now know it a mistake.  Its about wanting the best for this union of countries.  Its about not accpeting labour and torie lies on the EU,

Its never going to go away, the ill effects will continue and we will continue to fall behind until at the very least we are in a much closer alignment with the EU

Except….

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/01/brexit-has-added-6percent-to-britons-food-bills-new-study-finds.html