London riots: Lidl water thief jailed for six months

For £112.32 they could just tattoo “Yob” on the foreheads of every looter… Or “t*sser”

oldnpastit – Member
Nice white college student with no criminal record gets 6 months and we’re all shocked.

I do wonder if we’d be a bit less dismayed if he had been a young black kid with no criminal record instead.

EDIT: STW? Institutionally racist?

Where does it say he’s white?

Perhaps if he had thought about the consequences of his actions, he wouldn’t be in the situation he now finds himself in. If you don’t have either common sense or a basic grasp of what is right and wrong, don’t go looking for sympathy. Once less criminal on the streets is fine by me. 😀

Are you sure it was Lidl water and not Rapha branded stuff?

@Northwind. The authorities aren’t going to do cost analysis to see who was responsible for what damage and apportion the sentences. He was part of the rioting that caused millions pounds of damage. If you can’t work out the message the authorities is sending out, then clearly they’ve got it wrong.

But yes it is a statement of intent by the authorities, they have to be seen to act in this way.

A 6 month sentence for that is just bullshit. Nothing more than making a PR example which no doubt, after appeal (hopefully), will result in something more sensible. While at the same time, those **** that were really on a hate mission are getting put away for real.

oldnpastit
I do wonder if we’d be a bit less dismayed if he had been a young black kid with no criminal record instead.

Are you a bit special? The article doesn’t tell you what colour his skin is. Or are you perhaps a little bit racist, as people who see it where it doesn’t exist often are?

Still, you’re right, if he does turn out to be black I’ll withdraw my objection to a custodial sentence, obviously it would all make sense if he’s One Of Them.

I do wonder if we’d be a bit less dismayed if he had been a young black kid with no criminal record instead.

EDIT: STW? Institutionally racist?

Only the ignorant would fail to see through that. Black, white, yellow or whatever – the kid nicked a bottle of £3.50 water.

Well said spacemonkey.

Only the ignorant would fail to see through that. Black, white, yellow or whatever – the kid nicked a bottle of £3.50 water.

… during a riot.

the kid nicked a bottle of £3.50 water.

Actually it was a case of water worth £3.50 – Lidl don’t sell water at £3.50 a bottle. Which in my mind makes the crime even more stupid, why the **** would anyone want to lug a case of Lidl water around the streets of Brixton at 2.40 in the morning ffs ?

A 23 year old isn’t a ‘kid’

Nothing more than making a PR example

In fairness that is all the authorities have in their arsenal to prevent future riots, to try and put some fear into people. As clearly everyone can see that when massive amounts of people want to go rioting, there’s not alot that can actually be done about it…

Just looking at some of the stories. One district court judge referred every single case she had to the crown court because she wasn’t happy with the sentencing options she had (which I believe is a maximum of 6 months), and refusing bail in every case. That includes at lesat 2 people who turned themselves in to the police- obviously not a flight risk.

Even if you think the punishment fits the crime, it’s hardly a good use of resources at a time when things are so stretched.

But then, you see elsewhere

“David Attoh, 18, this week admitted stealing two designer T-shirts in Hackney, east London. A magistrate told him that the two days he had spent in a cell awaiting his hearing was adequate punishment and freed him.”

Shereece Ashley was tried in the same court as Nicholas Robinson (our Lidl thief). She admits to having gone out specifically for looting, rather than being an opportunist, and was targeting electrical goods in Tesco, yet she gets 3 months and he gets 6.

Stefan Bohan was given 20 weeks- again more than Ashley- for picking up goods that had already been looted and abandoned off the street.

But then Bernard Moore got the exact same sentence for attacking a Policeman.

So seriously, what the ****? Either you think some sentences are disproportionately high or some are too low but there’s no way you can think they’re fair. I don’t know, I can reconcile the rioting to s***eheels being s***eheels. But this is supposed to be justice. You’d think sentencing’s decided by rolling a dice. Obviously these are just snapshots from media coverage, you don’t know full details but you know enough about Lidl Guy to know there’s not much else that could have reduced his sentence. And how many others?

I don’t see the problem. It’s quite simple in my eyes. If you don’t want to go to jail, then don’t go stealing things in the first place.

You’d think sentencing’s decided by rolling a dice

Indeed and I’m quite happy with what’s been dished out TBH

If the crooks and thugs know what they’re going to get, they can make a judgement on whether or not a particular crime is worth based on time likely to be locked up.
If on the other hand, it appears to be a bit random and arbitrary – well then, they will likely get a surprise.

I really don’t care if it’s fair on rioters and looters one iota

Actually it was a case of water worth £3.50 – Lidl don’t sell water at £3.50 a bottle. Which in my mind makes the crime even more stupid, why the **** would anyone want to lug a case of Lidl water around the streets of Brixton at 2.40 in the morning ffs ?

Maybe he was part of the pit crew for the main rioters.

Thirsty work apparently.

Northwind

Do you not think that perhaps we are now getting to a situation where courts are getting sentences right by dishing out tougher sentences for these idiots? A message needs to be sent out that this behaviour is wholly unacceptable. If an individual’s moral compass is so skewed that they didn’t realize what they were doing was wrong or a bit of fun or did it through a warped sense of entitlement, it makes me glad to see the court system dealing with them in this way.

As the cost of the riots will already be borne by the state (i.e the taxpayer) I’d have thought the less serious offenders could be electronically tagged, curfewed & given community service orders to help in the reparation of the damage. Hard work & public shaming may have more impact than spending time in HMP wherever.

Just throwing people in jail has never worked.

I don’t see the problem. It’s quite simple in my eyes. If you don’t want to go to jail, then don’t go stealing things in the first place.

So now just the fact that someone has committed a crime, means that that should be no limit to the punishment which is dished out, according to some on STW ?

Some people obviously have much in common with the medieval feudal dictatorships which rule parts of the middle east and implement brutal sharia law.

Personally I am rather pleased that we no longer hang horse thieves or condemn people to deportation to the colonies for stealing a loaf of bread.

Clearly there are limits when it comes to sentencing, and the argument here is what is acceptable, not the dismissive “if you don’t want to do the time then don’t do the crime” usual bollox.

So seriously, what the ****? Either you think some sentences are disproportionately high or some are too low but there’s no way you can think they’re fair.

Or, maybe… the magistrates who are actually in court, actually dealing with the people first hand, actually seeing the evidence being put forward, are better at sentencing than a bunch of pundits on a MTB forum?

Are you suggesting that articles such as the OP’s original link to the Daily Telegraph, represents bad and misleading reporting which doesn’t report the true severity of the crime rightplacerighttime ?

You could be right. I doubt it though.

Shereece Ashley was tried in the same court as Nicholas Robinson (our Lidl thief). She admits to having gone out specifically for looting, rather than being an opportunist, and was targeting electrical goods in Tesco, yet she gets 3 months and he gets 6.

I wonder if the press is telling the whole story, here?
Same court? Same Magistrate? Wildly differeing sentences. It’s a crackdown, I don’t thing the Govt is shying away from what it’s doing. People’s reactions to the fires was quite strong, people have died trying to defend their property and you think that the deterrent should be a strong talking to and no dessert for a week? Hopefully they are intelligent enough to take the punishment and learn from it.

Clearly there are limits when it comes to sentencing, and the argument here is what is acceptable

True. In many countries looters would be shot on sight.
Here this bloke faced up to ten years in jail.

Six months seems about right to me (bearing in mind he’ll only do 3).

Lots of people saying “it was only water”.
Anyone know if/how the value of what he nicked is considered in sentencing?

TandemJeremy – Member
It will be reduced on appeal – its a magistrate wanting to make headlines.

But magistrates don’t sentence (they don’t have the powers, they pass judgement but look to others to sentence) – the district judge has in this case, and that sentence will be on the advice of the probation service in their pre-sentence report.

This is just a demonstration of muscle to prevent future riots.

Yeah, like that worked in the past. 🙄

How did you get from

I don’t see the problem. It’s quite simple in my eyes. If you don’t want to go to jail, then don’t go stealing things in the first place.

To

So now just the fact that someone has committed a crime, means that that should be no limit to the punishment which is dished out, according to some on STW ?

Then you did a leap to

Some people obviously have much in common with the medieval feudal dictatorships which rule parts of the middle east and implement brutal sharia law.

Little bit of “motherhood and apple pie” here

Personally I am rather pleased that we no longer hang horse thieves or condemn people to deportation to the colonies for stealing a loaf of bread.

Before coming back to reality

Clearly there are limits when it comes to sentencing, and the argument here is what is acceptable,

That seems to be the nub of the debate.

not the dismissive “if you don’t want to do the time then don’t do the crime” usual bollox.

Is it really bollox?

Yeah, like that worked in the past.

I’m not sure we’ve had this level of sentencing before to prove it. Secondly are you so sure of the objective that you can say it didn’t work in the past and won’t work in the future?

surfer – Member

How did you get from

To

Then you did a leap to

Little bit of “motherhood and apple pie” here

Before coming back to reality

That seems to be the nub of the debate.

Is it really bollox?

Well if you read my post as one continuous comment, you’ll see how I managed to do that.

Although I suspect that what you’re really trying to say, is that you don’t entirely agree with me.

Does the value of the item stolen actually matter if you’ve broken in to steal it? serious question BTW.

Say it had been a jewlers instead, and he grabbed a cheap bit of pewter jewelery is that less of a crime, than if on the other hand he had stolen a diamod ring.

pjt201

Are you sure? Magistrates have the power to impose sentences of up to six months is my understanding.

Are you suggesting that articles such as the OP’s original link to the Daily Telegraph, represents bad and misleading reporting which doesn’t report the true severity of the crime rightplacerighttime ?

Have you even read it?

Here are some extracts.

He (the magistrate) said Robinson’s previous good character and early plea of guilty to a non-dwelling burglary, as well as the low value of goods stolen, the fact he was in education, and his remorse, were in his favour.

But the judge said: “The aggravating features are the background of serious public disorder and your part in that.”

“The prosecution submit that this defendant has contributed through his actions and criminal conduct to the atmosphere of both chaos and sheer lawlessness.”

In other words, the court has taken many factors into account (not just what was stolen) and come to a judgement.

You might think it sounds a bit harsh, but given that you weren’t in court, maybe you should just step back a bit from the absolute certainty that you seem to be expressing that some hideous travesty of justice has taken place?

Personally, I think that if he has received a slightly OTT sentence, then there might well be a bit of overall good in that “opportunist” participants at future incidents, might decide to take the “opportunity” to stay out of jail rather than the “opportunity” to jump in and become part of the problem.

I’ve got no sympathy whatsoever for the defendant, but 6 (3) months in prison isn’t going to kill him is it? If he’s the sort of upstanding citizen that you’d like to think he is, then maybe it will give him a bit of a kick up the ar$e to do something +ve with his life.

It is the act that is the crime of burglary not what is stolen. It is a simple concept. Whether it was a bottle of water a plasma screen tv or a bunch of flowers its still burglary and it is a very serious offence. Everyone knows you shouldn’t do it, but he did so he has gone to prison.

its a magistrate wanting to make headlines

Sort of I think – it is more a case of getting the shock headline in so anyone else thinking it might be a good idea in the future will remember the sentence, but the subsequent reduction on appeal won’t make the same headlines.

In a similar way, they do appear to be massaging the news to show the demographics of the looters so as to ‘prove’ that all the trouble hasn’t been caused by out of work 18 yr old black lads. (Ie: graphic designers; teaching assistants; students; daughter of a millionaire etc).

Have you even read it?

Yes I read the article. And I guess most people who are voicing an opinion have too. So what’s your problem ? Why are you coming out with stuff like :

“Or, maybe… the magistrates who are actually in court, actually dealing with the people first hand, actually seeing the evidence being put forward, are better at sentencing than a bunch of pundits on a MTB forum? “

Are you suggesting that the information in the article is poor and/or misleading ? If so, why are you extensively quoting the article ? I’ll check later to see your answer.

Or, maybe… the magistrates who are actually in court, actually dealing with the people first hand, actually seeing the evidence being put forward, are better at sentencing than a bunch of pundits on a MTB forum?

I think this is all that needs to be said.

There were pages and pages of ranting on about how terrible the events were and how the authorities should have done this and that. Now as usual as soon as they do something you’re all complaining about that too.

It was only a case of water doesn’t wash. He entered someone else’s property and stole from them. That is a crime, he knew that before doing it. At 23 he is an adult and punished as one.

If it had been your front window he’d stepped through, your possessions/livelihood he’d taken. YOU WOULD SEE IT DIFFERENTLY.

If he didn’t want to be punished he should have stayed at home.

(Ie: graphic designers; teaching assistants; students; daughter (EDIT: or SON 🙂 ) of a millionaire etc).

Yes, because you can’t be any of those if you’re a young black male 🙄

The last one may be difficult iDave. 😀

But magistrates don’t sentence (they don’t have the powers, they pass judgement but look to others to sentence) – the district judge has in this case, and that sentence will be on the advice of the probation service in their pre-sentence report.

Magistrates have power to sentence up to 6 months for an individual case of burglary. Pre sentence reports contain suggestions which the courts do not have to follow. They almost never recommend custody, and certainly wouldn’t for a young man without convictions. They also take time (3 weeks in my local court). There will almost certainly not have been a full report in this case.

If it had been your front window he’d stepped through, your possessions/livelihood he’d taken. YOU WOULD SEE IT DIFFERENTLY.

Well it wasn’t my shop/livelihood that was targeted, but it was my town that was trashed and reduced to something resembling a war zone. And it was the shops that I actually use which were looted/destroyed, including my LBSs Geoffrey Butler’s and Bike Plus – both a few minutes walk from me . When I saw the damage to the town centre I was devastated, it was far worse than I had expected, and I was genuinely seriously upset, in fact I was surprised just how upset I was. I won’t however support a “anything goes” attitude when dealing with those responsible for it. I expect common-sense to prevail, not stupid knee-jerk reactions.

I won’t however support a “anything goes” attitude when dealing with those responsible for it. I expect common-sense to prevail, not stupid knee-jerk reactions.

But why do you regard a six month sentence as “anything goes”?

Seems about right to me.

If they were stringing them up then I’d be waving a liberal flag right next to you ernie, but a six month sentence (likely 13 weeks actual time) doesn’t seem overly harsh to me for an adult that has gone out specifically to commit burglary.