uplink – Member

It certainly works as a punishment and it certainly works by keeping them away from committing more crime

Only while they’re in jail- the reoffending rate after a prison sentence is higher than after a noncustodial sentence. Prison as a punishment increases crime, in some ways at least.

Sometimes prison works well just as a box to put a threat in- serial offenders, serious offenders, those who’re most likely to reoffend. But in a lot of these cases, you’re talking about first time offenders. Does Lidl Guy need to be inside to protect us from his stealing spree?

they need some urgent disincentive from ransacking the city centre next week

wonders if employment, a fair chance, not living in squalor and a reasonable share in the wealth of the country could be used to disincenitivise riots? you know a fairer society or will only a very large disproportionate response of imprisonment handed out by the state let them know their place in society and rehabilitate them in to acting as we wish and respecting society?

wonders if employment, a fair chance, not living in squalor and a reasonable share in the wealth of the country could be used to disincenitivise riots?

What – how will that inspire a millionaire’s grammar school daughter?
a ballet student perhaps, or an organic chef, maybe an opera steward? a law student perhaps?

How about this guy? an oxford graduate:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8703443/UK-riots-Oxford-University-graduate-and-RAF-hopeful-in-court.html

There’s a simple common denominator – they thought that they could get away with it!

How many times on here have we discussed bike thieves being let off with a slap on the wrists?

I’m sorry but it wasn’t just a bit of harmless theft from shops.

🙄 And there they go again…….those who automatically assume that because you are opposed to stupid sentences which clearly don’t fit the crime, you are therefore dismissing it all as “just a bit of harmless theft from shops”.

It is beyond comprehension for them, that anyone can recognise wrongdoing, and yet not support ridiculously excessive sentences. The whole concept is far too complex for them to get their tabloid educated heads round. They live in a hopelessly naive and simplistic world of “all, or, nothing” – no other options exist.

And as long as that simplistic attitude prevails, we can be assured that Britain is, and will remain, fecked.

ha ha ha laughing all the way to the pub, its not so funny now is it.

ernie_lynch – Member
It is beyond comprehension for them, that anyone can recognise wrongdoing, and yet not support ridiculously excessive sentences. The whole concept is far too complex for them to get their tabloid educated heads round. They live in a hopelessly naive and simplistic world of “all, or, nothing” – no other options exist.

I suspect that some people choose to read and see only the things that they want to see whether that is left or right wing.

Yes, there should be alternatives to lots of long gaol sentences, but in the current situation a huge number of people have done a bit of opportunistic crime that has caused a lot of trouble.

The courts are making an example of criminals in order to hopefully prevent the mob from doing it again any time soon. I have no sympathy for these people as they were motivated by greed and excitement, not absolute poverty and repression. They were not protesting at anything other than having to pay for ‘luxury’ items.

Lessons should be learned and alternatives to prison should be better utilised, but at short notice it won’t be practical to arrange a fully effective community service system, although I do strongly believe that such a system should be set up soon.

And as long as that simplistic attitude prevails, we can be assured that Britain is, and will remain, fecked.

Well it isn’t ‘fecked’ as far as I am concerned, but some people enjoying saying it.

How much do you earn a year aristotle and what kind of area do you live in?

How much do you earn a year aristotle and what kind of area do you live in?

Ah. I see what you are getting at: The bloke nicked the water as a means of achieving social justice. I understand now.

Well it isn’t ‘fecked’ as far as I am concerned, but some people enjoying saying it.

So you think it is perfectly acceptable to have two an a half million unemployed, including, almost one million young people ?

You think 20% across the board public spending cuts, rising prices, and falling living standards, says nothing about the state of the economy ?

There’s nothing wrong with cutting the social housing budget by 60% whilst at the same time spending millions destroying and bombing the crap out of other countries ?

This is what the main road into my town centre looks like today :

Is this what you expect to see outside a war zone ?

And you think it’s fine for Hazel Blears to demand, quote : “good, stiff, exemplary sentences” for those who we are told have a misplaced “sense of entitlement” ?

To help you answer that question I’ll remind you who Hazel Blears is :

In May 2009 The Telegraph reported that Blears had been claiming the maximum allowable expenses, to under a pound, for three properties, as well as for stays in hotels, £4,874 on furniture, £899 on a new bed and £913 on a new TV, the second such TV in under a year, and the maximum £400 a month in groceries, they also claimed that Blears had not paid capital gains tax on profit from the sale of a London flat. The property was registered as her main residence with HM Revenue and Customs, but Blears had been claiming MPs’ second home expenses relating to the flat. It was claimed that she had made a £45,000 profit on its sale without paying capital gains tax.[/b]

She has a fair “sense of entitlement” …….expensive beds, TVs, and grocery. And all without needing to loot any shop.

And wait for it……it’s all perfectly legal of course :

“In June 2009, the Police at Scotland Yard and the Crown Prosecution Service issued a statement regarding MPs’ expenses, which stated that they had not found evidence of criminal activity and that it was ‘highly unlikely’ that MPs would face charges”

You think it’s acceptable for a multi-billionaire media mogul to walk a free man despite the fact that his company was involved in criminal activity ?

You don’t have a problem with a couple of idiots getting 4 years for being silly on the internet despite the fact that a paedophile would be unlucky to get that ?

6 months for the opportunistic theft of a few cheap bottles of water from a budget supermarket, whilst Gary Glitter gets 4 months for child pornography is justice ? It’s ok for a society to value bottles of mineral water more highly than the well-being of children ?

I’ll stop there, you can carry on for yourself, other than to say that for me the cherry on the icing is the people who claim that everything is just fine. Apart that is, for the need for harsher sentences. And cuts in people’s living standards and services of course. The country’s in a terrible mess dontcha know ? Except that everything is just fine. Of course.

Some more numbers, for everyone who thinks more jail time will prevent riots and looting… In 1991, the prison population in england and wales was 42000. In 2008, it was 82000- the official operating capacity of our entire prison system, despite the massive prison building program of the same period. It’s still rising

From 95 to 2005, the number of people in prison for shoplifting (to use a relevant and minor crime here) went up 10-fold. We jailed 3000 first-time offenders for petty theft in 2001 (blatant wiki facts, these two)

So contrary to what you may have heard, about light sentences and slaps on the wrists, these rioters grew up during the biggest increase in prison time served this country has ever seen. Longer sentences, more jail sentences for relatively minor offences, more jail sentences for first offences.

Don’t believe everything you think 😉

What’s the proposed solution for those who commit “petty” crime then? Stern talking to? Stupidly short sentences that just give people a taster? It apparently takes £30K just to process and organise sending someone to jail, before any time is served (BBC figures) so that’s relatively a very expensive 30 day sentence should you pick such a thing when 70K gets you a year’s lockdown. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I sure as hell don’t agree with many of the pathetic soft policing/soft sentencing systems many propose.

Far to many namby pamby wet pinko sorts on here.We need to bring back corporal punishment and beat the living daylights out of looters and have the stocks or pillory on every village green and in every marketplace ,and hang a few as well or send them to Aus.

We need to bring back corporal punishment and beat the living daylights out of looters …………. and hang a few as well

Careful now, inciting others to commit acts of violence and other criminal activities over the internet could get you 4 years.

What’s that you say ?…….you were only “joking” ?

Yeah right, tell it to the judge mate, then we’ll see how “funny” he finds it.

Mr Alam has denied the charges. He has been refused bail. The fact the job offer has been withdrawn is proof he is being assumed guilty whilst no proof of guilt other than police evidence is being presented. Evidence from a notoriously xenophobic, masonic police force with a history of trumping up charges.

Just remember what the police accused Ian Tomlinson of before the Guardian video showed the police were lying through their teeth.

Is community service a bad idea?

“Is community service a bad idea? “

I don’t think so. Given that these scrotes made such a mess of our communities, I suggest the best thing to do with them is make them clean it up. Restorative justice and all that.

Macdonald [former CPS chief]told the Guardian: “Some of the offences that have been committed are exceptionally serious and they require grave punishment, and the sentencing guidelines cater for this. But we are also seeing exceptional punishment for opportunistic offences that appear, on the face of it, to be less serious. Coupled with the threat to remove benefits and to evict the families of rioters from their homes, we are seeing a response that risks becoming excessive and contrary to the norms of justice.

“I think it’s essential that the courts don’t become swept up in a collective loss of proportion. There is a difference between a sentence that deters and a sentence that lacks humanity or justice. Nothing could be more destructive to social harmony than criminal sentencing which is ill-judged and unfair.”
5 months for handling one pair of stolen shorts for a mother of two , 4 yrs for inciting to riot when the riot never even occured- dont we argue on here about whether the internet is real or not and some think it doe snot count on the net – 6 mths for £3.50 water etc. We can then factor in all the discrepancises as well – person stole 2 Burbery t-shirts and got 1 day sentence.

Britons rejoiced when the people rose up against (rioted) arab régimes and the bullying police that had unjustly imprisoned hundreds of opponents. Will Britons rejoice when the people rise up against (riot) Queeny, her government and the bullying police?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/18/retribution-for-riots-why-not

This pretty much sums up my view.

And yes, I do read the Guardian.

Will Britons rejoice when the people rise up against (riot) Queeny, her government and the bullying police?

Hyperbole? Anyway, weren’t the people rising up in support of free sports-casual-wear and large flat tvs, before celebrating the free refreshemnts on offer at the local corner shop?

Given that these scrotes made such a mess of our communities, I suggest the best thing to do with them is make them clean it up. Restorative justice and all that.

+1 and make them wear clown costumes or something else uncool while they are doing it

I don’t know the answers, but I suspect that this is closer to the right thing to do rather than the hang em flog em off with their heads school of thought..

Incredibly moving and dignified and one in the eye for the Islam bashers

heard the father interviewed a few times as well .incredibly dignified response by him during this time
Good call BB

coffeeking – Member

What’s the proposed solution for those who commit “petty” crime then? Stern talking to? Stupidly short sentences that just give people a taster?

Community sentences- more productive, and have a lower reoffending rate than prison. Also only 10% of the cost. For anyone intending a normal life then the conviction alone is a massive thing, people make light of it but would you laugh off jobseeking today with a conviction for burglary?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/18/retribution-for-riots-why-not

Mean? No. People write all sorts of really ugly and stupid things on Facebook, Twitter, email and other anti-social media platforms (including this one), and it’s time they realised that they matter.

LOLZ. We should jail trolls

Now had those three defending stores actually done any defending they’d be up for assault and being accused of being outlaw vigilantes.

Can someone clarify…all this talk of people getting caught up in the excitement of the moment, doing things they wouldn’t normally dream of doing, but just going along with everyone else without fully considering the consequences…is that the looters or the judiciary?

its both and it is hard to defend either tbh.

Just read in my local paper that for murder a man was jailed for 4 yrs and 9 months so it looks like 6 months for water thief shows what this goverment thinks is most inportant .

Incredibly moving and dignified and one in the eye for the Islam bashers

I am seriously impressed with Tariq Jahan. After his son was so callously murdered you might have expected him to be simply overwhelmed with anger, resentment, and a need for vengeance. And yet within hours he was calling for calm and reconciliation.

And yes, it’s one in the eye for the Islam bashers. Tariq Jahan is clearly motivated by a deep belief in Islam, as he tee shirt which says “There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger” shows :

It’s also worth pointing out that Trevor Reeves of Reeves furniture shop in Croydon, which had been passed down through 5 generations for 144 years, and was totally distraught the night his landmark shop was destroyed, has urged not to throw the baby out with the bathwater by reacting with pointless knee-jerk reactions :

Destroyed Croydon furniture shop owner argues against evicting innocent families

guardian breakdown of rioters and sentences….

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/18/england-rioters-young-poor-unemployed

Highest estimated cost of riots: £100m.

Tax avoidance by Vodafone: £6 Billion

Tax spent on Libyan intervention: £1 Billion
…………………
Tax avoidance in 2010 by richest people in UK: £7 Billion

Taxpayers’ bill for banking crisis: £131 Billion

Tax money spent in Iraq conflict: £4.5 billion

Tax money spent on Afghan conflict (up until 2007): £7 billion

Total MP expenses bill (2007): £87.6m

Perspective: Priceless

just a thought like

and so it begins
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14589259

and so it begins

Yep, and more pointless costs for the taxpayer and time-wasting for the courts.

And oh look, common-sense instead of stupid sentences :

Judge Gilbart ordered Nevin to do 75 hours of unpaid voluntary work instead.

“I am sure the courts will not be troubled by you again. Leave now and look after your children.”

Nevin was in bed at the time of the riots

S’funny Ernie

The judge you’re praising for common sense, is the same one who on the previous page we were being told was saying certain individuals will be treated with prejudice. He’s not fit to hold office, imo.

😆

I would like to see the introduction of the ‘3 strikes rule’….after an offender’s 3rd appearance in court they are jailed for life.

Beautiful in its simplicity.

The offender would clearly be a serial criminal and hasnt learnt from the previous 2 appearances in court so deserves to play no further part in society.

Cant stand all this rehabilitation nonsense, prison is there to keep the idiots away from law abiding society.

S’funny Ernie

The judge you’re praising for common sense…….

😆

I didn’t praise any judge for common sense.

Try reading what I wrote slowly : “And oh look, common-sense instead of stupid sentences”.

Yes that’s right, the outcome of the appeal was common-sense. Should I praise the judge for applying common-sense ? Well maybe, although I expect nothing less than common-sense from a court. So just like I wouldn’t praise a carpenter for managing to hang a door correctly, I am unlikely to heap praise on a judge who decides on a sensible and appropriate sentence.

And btw, I have never previously criticised the judge in question, so I fail to understand what is so hilarious on that count.

I tell you what Zulu-Eleven, you’re bleeding lucky that just being stupid isn’t a crime here in Britain – you’d be hauled before the courts on a daily basis. And if I was the judge, I’d throw away the key.

Beautiful in its simplicity.

It’s certainly worked beautifully in the USA.

Going hydrated to steal – a new statute perhaps?

And you think it’s fine for Hazel Blears to demand, quote : “good, stiff, exemplary sentences” for those who we are told have a misplaced “sense of entitlement” ?

Just because Blears is a horrible grasping MP who has played the system to feather her own nest, doesn’t mean she is wrong about sentences for rioters.

A – she didn’t do anything criminal.

B – even if you think what she did was morally wrong, it didn’t leave people in fear in the way that the rioting did.

Exemplary sentences may not be the best option for the individual felons, but they are necessary to rebuild the confidence of a large section of the public.