Lintels

I have a 2 bed Victorian terrace, with the floor plan below

I had an arched doorway going from the dining room into the kitchen. I started to remove this to square it back off, and found a wooden lintel that’s barely resting on anything

I’m thinking of now opening this up further like this

My question is, would a 100mm x 65mm concrete lintel suffice? It would be 1800mm in length and have 200mm extended beyond the opening either side.

Something along the lines of this? – https://www.diy.com/departments/expamet-concrete-lintel-l-1800mm-w-100mm/150792_BQ.prd

I’d say no. I was planning on doing something similar to a house of nearly the same layout, got a structural engineer in for ~£350. I am usually very much a work it out my self type person but thought being as I will want to sell the house I would make sure I have official calcs done. If I was going to just do it without calcs I would be using a universal beam rather than a concrete lintel.

As the brick says – I think that would need more than a concrete lintel.  Looks to be a load bearing wall.

Third vote for get an engineer. Maybe a concrete lintel will be fine, maybe it won’t maybe you will need a steel beam. There is no way I would touch that shambles without a proper look over from a proper engineer.

From an architectural point I would go to the same height as the window reveal.

Josh (an engineer but not that kind but did have to study structural)

Also. Now I may be wrong here it has been a very very long time since I did anything with houses.

But when you get to building control which you will need concent from they will probably not like the one door between shitter and kitchen. Now all thos may be fine while you live there but you will feel a proper plum when you sell that you have to reinstate a door.

I’ve removed the downstairs toilet so no problem there luckily. Maybe I’ll have to stump up the cash for an engineer to take a look then. Just wasn’t really a job I was planning on doing.

Always the way. Thanks everyone

A concrete lintel would be marginal for that size of opening. Might depend which way the floor above is spanning too. 100x65mm definitely too small- if concrete it would be at least twice as deep at a minimum.
If you need someone to check and spec up an appropriate lintel for you, send me a DM. My wife is an SE who carries the PI insurance for work like this and will produce a design proposal which is acceptable to Building Control – which you will need.

No need for a structural engineer, a type c or universal concrete lintol , the span +300mm or maybe 400 seeing the crappy brickwork
If you don’t know anything about lintols maybe better to get someone to fit it correctly

No need for a structural engineer, a type c or universal concrete lintol , the span +300mm or maybe 400 seeing the crappy brickwork
If you don’t know anything about lintols maybe better to get someone to fit it correctly

Cool so you have accounted for the fact that the upstairs wall on the rear bedroom is potentially dangling over the doorway yes? And that the pointload that may have been adequately spread by the existing masonry courses and the short span is all of a sudden spread over a shorter distance above a larger span.

You need building control to approve that and you need an engineer to prove it.

Get a structural engineer in.

Remember, you are not paying just for the cals, you’re paying for the liability insurance and getting it signed off by BC. I did similar a couple of years ago and you’ll be surprised at how large a beam you may need. It may not be needed from a structural point, but no engineer is going to go with the exact numbers, they always add a safety factor.

Def get a SE in. I’d say given the proximity of the window you maybe looking at a steel the whole way across. possibly two to pick up both wall leafs (assuming it’s a cavity wall). easiest way to visualise load is to think it extends 45 degrees from point. you don’t have that available due to the window opening, so much less wall to share the load

it’s not a big job if you want it done but not really DIY, and will need building regs to signoff

200mm either side is unlikely to be enough – especially onto crappy Victorian 9” walls.

You’re also planning on reducing the amount of wall between the existing doorway and the window that will definitely affect things.

You absolutely need a structural engineer to look at this before you do anything.

Unfortunately, a lot of Victorian terraces were built very badly – as you are finding out!

Just looking at the photos again, I presume that the extension on the back is original.

The external door in the extension may complicate matters slightly (as will the high window in the dining room) as it is also quite close to the load bearing corner.

That existing lintel doesn’t look very supportive at all and it wouldn’t surprise me if the door frame was actually it helping out, so maybe don’t take that out too soon!

(I’m not a builder or anyway qualified, but my dad was an architect and we undertook many renovations)

I’d not be widening that gap without some expert advice. You could end up with both the back wall and side of kitchen wall out if you balls-up.

Thanks everyone. I’m now thinking maybe I should repair the brickwork that’s there, keep the opening the same size and replace that timber lintel with a slightly longer concrete lintel? (100mm x 65mm)

Then I’m not widening it, just repairing. So I assume no building control needed?

I haven’t really got the budget / time for structural engineer and building control at the minute.

I would just repair the brickwork and pretend I never say the dodgy lintel.  Its been there for a hundred years – its unlikely to fall down now

would a 100mm x 65mm concrete lintel suffice? It would be 1800mm in length and have 200mm extended beyond the opening either side.

Both the size of the lintel and its bearing area need to be calculated properly to account for the loads from the first floor (bathroom wall + possibly bedroom floor joists), but without any calculation, I’d say that the concrete lintel would be woefully inadequate.

I think whatever you do, you need to get some acro props under the existing lintel and re-build the supports either side. (i.e. properly build – cut out broken bricks and replace, rather than just ‘filling in the gaps’.)

Have a play here to get an idea of the size of lintel you’d need –

https://catnic.com/products/lintels/lintel-product-selector

If you are really keen, you could calculate the loadings yourself, but a SE would be the best bet – essential if Building Control are involved (I think you’re *supposed* to inform them about this sort of thing).

ETA:

keep the opening the same size and replace that timber lintel with a slightly longer concrete lintel? (100mm x 65mm)

I very, very much doubt that the 100 x 65 concrete lintel would be adequate.

@joshvegas wrote:

But when you get to building control which you will need concent from they will probably not like the one door between shitter and kitchen. Now all thos may be fine while you live there but you will feel a proper plum when you sell that you have to reinstate a door.

It’s fine as long as there’s a handwashing facility (sink) in there so you can wash hands before you use the door (just been through this as we’re thinking of a new downstairs loo)

Unfortunately, a lot of Victorian terraces were built very badly – as you are finding out!

Wooden lintels are normal in our Victorian pile. We needed to replace a rotting lintel in the external wall and the engineer specified wood in the same dimensions, but oak because modern softwood is too weak

A 100x 65 is not for use there it use to be called a composite lintol due to needing 3 course of new
brickwork above it , 100×145 pre stressed universal meaning you can’t put it in wrong, the steel has to be at the bottom
As for this has to involve a se is like saying if you have an Audi the oil change can only be done by a dealership
The engineer you will probably get will be a graduate with very little experience
Doesn’t matter what a se draws if it’s not done by someone who knows what they’re doing they aren’t watching to see if it’s all tight and packed in properly

The engineer you will probably get will be a graduate with very little experience

Matters not a jot. They’ll still have liability insurance.

Doesn’t matter what a se draws if it’s not done by someone who knows what they’re doing they aren’t watching to see if it’s all tight and packed in properly

That’s what building control is for. As I’m sure you know you can only proceed stage by stage and BC will inspect each stage as they see fit.

I’m sure you know you can only proceed stage by stage and BC will inspect each stage as they see fit.

In theory yes.

Practically they are so short staffed – you lodge notification of intent to start and they phone you c~3 weeks later and say they are going to inspect foundations – but you say – urm sorry too slow chicken Marengo -buildings up and kitchens going in. You can see the photos.
And life’s good.

Building control process was a joke for our extension which includes a set of steel lintels holding up the back of the building. fortunately we knew what they would be looking for and took plenty photos in the build process.

IANAB looking st it ypu could maybe knock 3 bricks wide out the wall. Gaining about 2ft. This leaves another 2 course of bricks for a padstone.
Then you may as well bung in a steel I beam. Best to get a proper, time served builder to do the difficult lift and pack bit, slate used to be the trick.
Will need acro props for a week then you can do the tidy up and redecorate.

I might just keep the original width to be honest.

I can’t fit a steel I beam, as I only have a bricks width, 100mm or so.

I can either fit a 100×150 concrete lintel or a 100mm steel box lintel like a catnip one. I would assume either would be fine if I’m only replacing that timber one?

Also, it never had a timber frame, just that timber lintel sat on the brickwork. It had no door frame or anything.

honestly I know you don’t want to, get a SE to advise you.

if you are southampton way I can give you ours, he was good, fast and did not try to charge daft numbers like others did

this will give you the peace of mind that whatever you do will be right. for the sake of £300 or so it’s worth it on a house which costs £kkk

or just cover it up as it was and forget about it. old houses have many horrors and they aren’t all about to imminently fall down. it’s when you start messing with them it’s an issue

My question is, would a 100mm x 65mm concrete lintel suffice? It would be 1800mm in length and have 200mm extended beyond the opening either side.

probably not – very dependent on the floor span direction, and the exact locations of the first floor bedroom window and bathroom door.

other lintels are available

215 deep, 100 wide (3 brick courses tall) has more than 10 times the capacity, for example.
140 deep are also commonly available.
Generally you want 150mm bearing each end. Longer is fine (and better than trying to cut it down)

If you’re in Sheffield I can dig out the name of the structural engineer we worked with for a very similar job, it was cheap (couple of hundred quid) and he was creative in solving a few odd problems.

I’d want structural advice, not so much for the lintel but for the reduced width of the supporting brick pier between the window and enlarged opening. At a glance of your drawings that pier will be supporting the new lintel and the window lintel which looks to be at least 3 metres so most of the rear wall of the house. So it would need to be sound brick, and you would be changing it from an upside down T shape to an L shape by removing the stubb towards the kitchen door.

Might be worth looking into though as it would open up the kitchen which looks quite small.

I presume that the extension on the back is original.

…but then it wouldn’t be an extension…

The only thing I know for sure about lintels is. DONT bang your head on one.

Its been there for a hundred years – its unlikely to fall down now

I’ve no idea why people think this is true*….The older a building is the more likely it is to have issues – especially wooden lintels which can rot and turn to dust.

* My sister’s 400 year old half timbered building should be solid as a rock if it were true.

Unfortunately they had to spend over £100k having rotten oak replaced!

Thanks everyone. I think I’m heading down the route of a SE and hoping to open it up fully.

PS we had a similar terrace, except the kitchen was much narrower, I think there was an old rule (tax or planning perhaps) that meant rear extensions were often less than 6 foot wide?)

We knocked the dining room window into a glazed door (wider house you could manage french doors) and then blocked up the kitchen door to the garden so that we could actually get kitcheny stuff into the kitchen! (Fridge still stayed in the dining room and washing machine went under the stairs though!)

I knocked down a kitchen wall to make it open plan with the diner. Called in a mate who has a steel construction business to have a look and mentioned to him that I was going to get building control involved as well as a structural engineer. He said ” you need a concrete pad at either end, an 8″ steel and don’t bother with b/c and s/e”. Went in perfect and still standing !
Mind you it’s not a crumbling victorian place and I realise not everyone has access to an experienced crew of steel erectors to fit and shim it in a couple of hours.

You need building control to approve that and you need an engineer to prove it.

As above

Dont mess about. Youre not just paying for the SEs experitise with and excel spreadsheet or calculator, your paying for them to take the liability (and be confident that they are not going to need it)

You need that piece of paper/drawing/calc-sheet

You might be asked to provide it when you come to sell
If there are any problems, i doubt your insurer will help you out

I’d say no need to get a engineer,use the money towards a recommended bricklayer.He would rebuild the pillars solid,put pad stones under lintel either side.Lintel bearing of 150mm minimum either side would be enough.225mm deep lintel of either concrete,or steel rsj, would easily be strong enough to take load bearing wall for that span if it is a load bearing wall.

When you make the Building Control Application (which you need to do if you alter the opening width) the Building Control Surveyor hopefully will be able to advise you of a suitable support/bearings. That’s what I do as a BCS.

OP, if you want to message me I can talk you through the process.

The wall being 100mm thick means it was never an outside (= main structural) wall, so the kitchen would be original, and the outside wall of the kitchen may be helping to support the back wall of the house. The door from the kitchen to outside may not be original and could be compromising that. The problem is that you don’t know how much has been modified by previous owners so can’t assume where the load goes.

Various comments above about BC – note that England & Wales has different rules to Scotland, where are you?

For what it’s worth I think opening it up makes alot of sense. It will make the room alot lighter, make the kitchen feel bigger and part of the house. And will make the corner feel less cramped with that bathroom door.

@nbt that rings a bell I had forgotten that detail

I’m in England, North West