Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

Type 3 error, Woppit

Clarify?

Woppit those are some pretty heart felt claims there mate, is that from “the God delusion”, a book which i also own but i am yet to read, i figure i’d best come to my own conclusions before closing off my viewpoint, do you agree? Is this a more sensible option, clearly faith and related religions have had thousands of critics over the years but still it persists, that said i am not going to rule out the madness of crowds or that people love a good yarn, but “what if” is as valid a point as “what isnt”, no? Or should one just fall behind the more fashionable line?

Personally, I’m not even a little bit superstitious and have lived the last forty years of my life as a evangelical humanist/atheist and fully intend to die as one.

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

MrNutt – Member

Woppit those are some pretty heart felt claims there mate, is that from “the God delusion”, a book which i also own but i am yet to read,

Read it.

no time to read all the posts but here’s a couple of quotes I love (whether relevant or not !)

People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves without wondering.”

St. Augustine

and : the gold we seek

Eventually we grow weary of seeking treasures outside
ourselves and we begin to look within. There we discover
that the gold we sought, we already are.

Alan Cohen

Not here <—- ❓ middle path ❓ —-> not here

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

Nice one. 😀

Good luck mrnutt with your endevour
I’ve developed over the years from a forced christian to a stout athiest, by forced i mean from family and friends which as a youngster knowing nothing else (Sunday school)

Religion has killed or murdered probably millions over the centuries, and for what, some invisible bieng nobody has seen or heard, its all fiction as far as I’m concerned
That aside, I do respect the values which it installs, love,family, care etc
Each to their own I say and respect otherwise

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

Personally I’d have taken the money (you have to be of a certain age for this one!!)

Interesting outlook on faith and religion this morning on the BBC News Pages.

I can’t forgive them, I keep praying that God will curse them”

Esmael Mangudadatu Governor of Maguindanao

CharlieMungus : schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

now that, was divine. 😉

Back on the Dawkins front, I can’t find my copy as I’m redecorating and have half my books in boxes. Maybe that’s a blessing, or a curse, or maybe its just I have a bad memory!

Can I ask, does he give undeniable proof that God does not exist or is it purely academic conjecture? What motivates him? Does he build a case against Faith or Religion or both?

What is his suggested alternative as all I tend to hear of him is argument and condemnation, Does his “way” contain anything positive or does he just set out to debunk established Religious structures?

At this moment I cannot agree that the Bible is not a good book, it is, a very interesting read. It’s also quite an amazing feat of humanity, this book has been around for at least 1500 years, edited, translated, changed and evolved, maybe not always for the good maybe not always for the bad but it is one hell of an achievement for mankind to have not only carried on but also for so many to have believed in wholeheartedly.

I’m not ready to jump upon any God bothering bandwagon just yet nor do I seek to, like I say this is the investigation of my own faith, I do believe I have a faith and I will continue to study this, right now its both an interesting, enjoyable and personally helpful process. Long may it continue 🙂

Here’s a question…

Dawkin’s claims to know that God does not exist,

Yet I receive help and guidance from God and therefore know God does exist,

Is this not the same as the argument for wearing a helmet whilst riding a bike? Who knows if wearing the helmet would save you? it could do more damage, but to wear one or not wear one is a personal choice, the arguments for and against are out there, I guess its up to each individual as to which side they believe, no?

Personally sometimes I wear one, other times I don’t, but I never make a point of telling folk they should or shouldn’t wear one, do you?

Can I ask, does he give undeniable proof that God does not exist…

No he does not, and here’s the thing he never has. He states his position as being fairly certain that there is no god but as scientist he recongises that it is impossible to prove a negative therefore he does entertain the posibility that he may be wrong. All he asks for is proof.

His main issue seems to be with those who deny science (evolution especially) and reason because of their religious faith. He also has an issue with indoctinating children into a “faith”.

Absolute certainty is something enjoyed by those of a religious persuasion, not by those with a scientific one.

ok, that sounds reasonable, I’m not of ether a creationist or evolutionary standpoint just yet but then…

Are there any evolutionary fossils showing the development of man from what he came from before? is this not easily possible to demonstrate?

read “the greatest show on earth” by dawkins… evolution questions answered better than i think STW could 🙂

evolution questions answered better than i think STW could

Surley that can’t be. With all of the well informed and balanced personalities on this forum we could end all of the worlds ills…opps, sorry, forgot for a moment this is STW.

Fair point PC. Its just a shame that despite talking what seems like a lot of sense Dawkins comes across as a bit of a twunt.

Everyone seems to say this but I honestly don’t see it. A lot of people say Dawkins is ‘shrill’ and ‘screaming atheism’.

I read the God Delusion. It is simply a discussion regarding religion and its place in the world. All he says is that if he was given evidence that a god exists then he’d believe.

I’m sort-of buddhist myself and what he says makes an awful lot of sense.

The only thing I thing gets up peoples’ noses is the fact that he reckons that religion should not have any special consideration in the world. I agree. Live and let live, just don’t push any dogma onto me from your religion and we’ll both be happy.

After all the most faithful religious person is atheist in all other faiths apart from their own…

so is there unequivocal proof that we evolved from the seas or elsewhere? or is there still that old “missing link” issue?

There is no God. Prove to me one shred of evidence that there is…

Case closed!

It really is laughable that in this day and age people still believe in this superstitious nonsense. Supposedly intelligent people some of them are too…

so is there unequivocal proof

That’s not how science works, as you well know. There is a reasonable amount of circumstantial evidence that this might be the case, rather more evidence than is available for the claims made in the various holy books that people are content to accept.

‘Missing links’ are inevitable in any attempt to provide evidence based on a fossil record; a bit of science regarding how fossils develop would be a good starting point for you to investigate pre-history.

have you looked for yourself, inside yourself loddrik? seriously and honesty with an open mind?

I’m not suggesting you’d find anything, just wondered if you’d looked.

have you looked for yourself, inside yourself

What does this even mean?

I blame the Beatles, all that transcendental cobblers….

Stop asking us to argue Richard’s case, Nutt. Go and read the books.

You might stop off at Chris Hitchens (“God is not great: How religion poisons everything”), Sam Harris (“Letter to a christian nation”) and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (“Infidel”) on the way. Or just google or search on Youtube where you will find all your questions about atheism and the objective point of view discussed in detail.

By the way – you say that “god” talks to you. Do you mean that you are hearing voices inside your head, or sense presences where there is no one else present?

…if you do find yourself, inside yourself, presumably you could ask yourself what you’d like for Christmas, and maybe find out who’s been eating all those biscuits all these years.

The other thing is, what if you find yourself and you don’t like yourself, or what if the self that you found doesn’t like you?

What if you found someone else, inside yourself? Which one of you gets to choose what to wear on the Christmas night out?

Best not to mess.

…and just to delay going out for another 2 minutes, open minds and organised religion go together like chalk and cheese; atheists have open minds, theists don’t.

Mr Nutt, WTF are you on about..? You are on a wind up, right..?

and the vultures start circling…

I go back to the point I made previously. The ‘believers’ cannot, and will never, be able to offer a shred of evidence on the existence of god, not one!

Imagine in a court case ‘well your honour, the accused is guilty because we believe he did it. We cannot offer any evidence to the contrary, but he must be guilty because we think he did it’.

I cannot put in to words how absolutely mind bendingly gobsmaking the stupidity of religion is…

By the way – you say that “god” talks to you. Do you mean that you are hearing voices inside your head, or sense presences where there is no one else present?

the only voice I hear in my head is my own, but I do believe that having faith helps me follow my better choices. Now be that because the fundamentals of the Christian religion are to be a good person is to me undoubtedly better than following the easy to ride trail of consumerism, selfishness and greed.

Consider society, consider the fundamentals of capitalism, consider the media and its role models presented to everyone, adults and children. The world we are all presented with on a daily basis is often amoral.

Hell children are indoctrinated with that shit on a daily basis the minute they are near a TV or taken out of the house, how is that not as bad as teaching a child about God?

Having Faith is not a bad thing, it provides a clear path to doing “the right thing” but as with everything its important not to blindly accept but to question what is right, that’s exactly what I’m doing.

I’m not asking for people to argue Dawkin’s points, I will be researching them with the same unbiased view as I am the teachings of the Bible. I am interested in any links or suggestions folk may have and I will check them out, perhaps more people should?

have you looked for yourself, inside yourself loddrik? seriously and honesty with an open mind? I’m not suggesting you’d find anything, just wondered if you’d looked.

How’s that funny woody? laugh all you like, mock me, I couldn’t care less, its my choice to do this, I was simply asking if he’d personally explored faith? and for all I know loddrik may even list home endoscopy as a hobby?

Ah! Obviously unintentional MrNutt but one of the best put-downs I’ve seen for a while 😉

Edit : Quick edit there MrNutt! It wasn’t a pop at you (I was quite supportive of your quest in my 1st post and I prefer to keep a very open mind on such matters) or loddrik as it happens, as he is entitled to his opinion – it simply amused me

MrNutt,

take a look here…

http://www.ayahuasca.com/

Kev

and as for circling vultures, I’m not forcing my views upon others, nor am I suggesting that people take to religion or find faith, I’m simply asking if it is something they have any personal experience of.

I can handle playground mockery, typically those who shout the loudest are the most ignorant, mockery is a method of self defence against insecurity. I can handle structured reasoned intelligent discussion,

I’ve brought this to the forum because I expect all of the above, and I think there is value & experience to learn from it all.

edit: ah got ya woody, 😉

Alas, faecophilia is my hobby…

(not litterally though…)

I am completely ‘secure’ in myself and my beliefs, such that I dont need some superstitious mumbojumbo to act as my moral guidance. I have my own moral code which enables me to live in a manner which does not adversely affect others and I think I’m a pretty decent human being as a consequence.

And guess what, I do this without fear of eternal damnation or some other ridiculous deital punishment or exclusion from the ‘afterlife’, whatever that is….

You said earlier that “god” has talked to you. Please describe the process whereby this is enabled?

What accent does he have, does he use ‘the queens….’?

Having Faith is not a bad thing, it provides a clear path to doing “the right thing” but as with everything its important not to blindly accept but to question what is right, that’s exactly what I’m doing.

Sorry Mr Nutt, but I think you are mistaken in your thinking. Faith in itself does not provide a clear path to doing the right thing, faith in what someone tells you is the right thing is purely a choice you make, not necessarily the right thing to do. This is where religous doctorine comes into it.

I know you come from a CofE background and are defining your idea of what is right by the teachings of the bible, but please don’t confuse faith and religion. You can have faith in a religion and I can have faith that the rope I’m just about to swing from will hold my weight. But faith isn’t what makes me like going on the swing. In the same way, the 7/7 bombers had faith that what they were doing was the ‘right thing’.