Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

I counter that you are simply ignoring the ramifications of a materialist outlook to bolster a pretty poor philosophical stance.

My argument is edit: NOT materialistic and my interest is in the practical application of faith, the ramifications that that has on society. The misplacing of wealth and disproportionate respect and power we allow to its followers. I might add the impact that it has on the welfare of mankind given its ability to stymie embryonic research etc.

By trying to make it into a philosophical argument, which you have done just clouds the issues that we face today, I am not interested in debating an afterlife and the fervent followers of faith seem to agree given their attempts to gain both economic and political power on earth as oppose to waiting !

Why did you refer to atheist morals as “meaningless” as an agnostic where is your frame of reference?(although how that can be practiced eludes me)

I like that fact that everyone is just talking about ‘the god’ which (from the way it’s worded) would be the Abrahamic one true god (allegedly).

Where’s the room for Vishnu or his more recognisable avatar Harry Krishna, Shiva,
what about the old relgion such as Odin, Thor, the Dagda or Brigid, – all this ties in a lot more with Campbell’s hero with a thousand faces.

Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists…

I think mavisto’s post sums up the arguments going on in this thread quite well; bad things happen to good people and sadly none of it makes any sense in the grand scheme of things.

I love this thread, every month it pops up and causes no end of mischief and everyone leaves it believing exactly what they always believed. I’m planning to recant my atheism on my death bed FTW.

Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists…

Why?

MrNutt – reading the bible on it’s own can be hard work sometimes.

I’d recommend these two books as being very good reads:

The Bloke’s Bible by Dave Hopwood

and

The Shack by Wm Paul Young

Ian

I like that fact that everyone is just talking about ‘the god’ which (from the way it’s worded) would be the Abrahamic one true god (allegedly).

You may want to include those who believe in a “god” however as an atheist its immaterial to me what god other people beleive in.

I was initialy interested as all cultures and human civilistaions have some form of God /religion/diety.There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove.

DaRC_L… i was hoping someone would bring this up but reluctant to myself as i didnt want an already imflammatory thread to explode by mentioning other religions :S

Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists…

one of the things i like about most humanists i’ve met is that some of them are open minded enough to challenge their veiws/lack of views 🙂

quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with i think, especially as most atheists i’ve spoken to rely heavily on the word of current scientific knowledge as if its the gospel truth… dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b’mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol.

one of the most appealing things about Joseph Cambell is that he made a point of reminding everyone that both religion and science are trying to interpret the world around them and as science develops, ideas change and our level of understanding does. unfortunately a lot of atheists are as closed minded as they accuse the religious of being and forget that their understanding of the world should develop and change as scientific evidence dictates.

i love quantumn stuff, it sets my brain alight and makes me constantly re-think my views on the world/space around me… the one thing it doesnt challenge though is my view on mankind, that will hopefully continue to change and develop as i grow.

“dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b’mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol.”
What a beautiful thought 😆

Junkyard – Member
I was initialy interested as all cultures and human civilistaions have some form of God /religion/diety.There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove

🙂 you know when something seems like complete common sense and you dont know why someone hasn’t made a point of it before that you’re aware of…

well that’s the “finally… how could anyone argue differently now someone’s bothered to gather evidence for this simple blinding truth” moment i experience when i got into Joseph Cambell. He’s written lots of stuff, but “the hero with a thousand faces” is definitely the book for you sir

dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b’mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol.

If Darwin was wrong we’d still be flicking Holy water at people and exorcising them. Don’t forget, atheists can be nurses too.

There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove

Now I’m not saying that Scientology is a religion, because having read the actual history L Ron Hubbard, it is obviously the dellusions of a third rate Sci Fi writer, but it just goes to show what can be created from the mind of one man, believed by a few misguided people, and now cannot be disproved!

Cheers Phil – will try and get it from the library. I used to call people hippy when I had my dreads 🙄

quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with

I think even quantum physicists struggle with this but what exactly do you think they have found that proves god. Confusion?

dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b’mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol

BS he is a scientist he would accept the evidence if it existed. Does it? Science can do paridigm shifts only those of faith, cannot have their opinion altered by facts and evidence – ah well at least both sides are mocking each other now.

If Darwin was wrong we’d still be flicking Holy water at people and exorcising them. Don’t forget, atheists can be nurses too.

not quite sure how to read into that post, maybe im sleepy but it feels like i’ve perhaps presented myself as saying drwin was wrong?

i’m not saying darwin was wrong 🙂 just trying to think of an example to make my point.

(if it helps I’m an atheist humanist and my entire right leg is tattooed with sea creatures that show the evolution of the ocean…. i’m a firm “believer” in evolution, but then again, if science proved it wrong in the future i’d like to think i was open minded enough to entertain a new school of thought)

Well we’ve not wandered too far off topic it seems! This entire process of religious investigation is one I consider to be healthy, Since taking the initial steps towards considering my faith in a manner that is both honest and personal to me I have been feeling a lot more positive about making changes for “the good”, I don’t doubt that every man is prone to evil acts and history proves that absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Bible appears to provide numerous examples of such, to believe someone with Faith who is follower of a Religion to be exempt from evil is foolish to say the least, everyone is but human.

I am following this path, taking this journey, what ever you wish to call it, in order to hopefully discover in me something that I have long believed to exist but was more than willing to ignore, belittle or denounce.

I’m not sure where this will lead me but so far I’m enjoying the process and feeling the benefit both emotionally & spiritually.

oh and you can stay the **** away from me with those bloody fingerbells you mincers!!! I’m off to read some more of the old fire n brimstone! its, erm, biblical! 😀

I think even quantum physicists struggle with this but what exactly do you think they have found that proves god. Confusion?

nothing that i’ve been made aware of… jsut wanted to take the opportunity to point out that a lot of atheists are as stuck in their veiws as the religious people they then mock.

BS he is a scientist he would accept the evidence if it existed. Does it?

i’m sure he would…a very clever scientist he is too and i’ve enjoyed everything i’ve read by him for that reason. and again, no i dont think there is any evidence to say evolution doesnt exist.

i must have really written my post badly 🙁

sorry MrNutt, back to the OP.. good luck 🙂

anyone trying to change themselves for the better has my respect.

Mr Nutt,

Sorry for the question, but do you think that by having faith in a religion (for want of a better description), that your luck may change or that you may find a meaning for your life?

I don’t want to stop you from reading the bible, but I’m not sure you will find the answers there. For one, it is not an easy book to read and as so many scholars have found, it is open to huge misinterpretation. If you want to read and try and understand it, go to one of the Christian bookshops and get some of the guides that are available. They at least cut through the Thees and Thous and Therefores and try to make it understandable in plain English.

Also for balance, try Dawkins ‘The God Dellusion’. I also found that heavy going and needed a dictionary to look up some of the words he used.

I don’t mind belles on my finger…

SoouthernYeti I just thought the UU might be a safe haven for the non-atheist/agnostic humanist.

The Bible is a good history of the accumulated wisdom of the Levantine people but it was essentialy edited by a series of men over a large period of time and often influenced by the politics of the time.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that religion brings we’d have no civilisation.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that civilisation brings we’d have no religion.

I would say that expressions of spirituality are a reliable sign that civilisation has advanced to a point at which basic needs are met and people can start worrying about less important stuff than the next meal.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that religion brings we’d have no civilisation.

I’m sorry, but religion does not bring unity. That comment is so misguided.

Religion has brought nothing but disunity, from Herod to the present day.

The fear that religion instils in people maybe, but not religion.

but religion does not bring unity
+ eleventy.

All the major religions are exclusive, belying their roots as a tribal based societal control method rather than the word of a supernatural being.

Hope y’all choose the right one……

I though Darc and crikey made good points.
It brings unity wioth tribal neighbours as you are now brothers and share the same dad. yes this bigger entity eventually clashes with another civilisation but it unifies huge numbers first.

Can any Westerner be truly religious? Is it not written in the Bible (the new bit that we all like not the old fire and brimstone bit) that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle?

Now I’m no expert on Theology but I think jeebus was being pretty literal here based on him living a frugal life and all that. I think he did mean that to all intents and purposes rich people are essentially wearing trainers viz a viz gods policy re heavenly admissions.

Now I understand that 90% of the worlds wealth is in the US and Western Europe etc and therefore we here are all, what I think it’s fair to say, jeebus would have regarded as rich men. On that basis I think to be a proper christian with a good chance of getting into heaven anyone claiming a strong faith should be punting their goods, sorting out a local charity with the proceeds and heading off to do unpaid work for the rest of their lives.

Isn’t it a bit hypocrital to claim faith when no-one really goes for the most basic tennets of the faith they claim to subscribe to?

Isn’t it a bit hypocrital to claim faith when no-one really goes for the most basic tennets of the faith they claim to subscribe to?

You’re not meant to take it literally, apparently….

That’s why Anglicans don’t stone people.

Yes it simply refers to any manufacturers of dairy products I expect.

Now I understand that 90% of the worlds wealth is in the US and Western Europe etc

I thought we were all in trillions of debt, which if the scales are to balance, we must owe to someone – the spiritual East perhaps ?

I’m sorry, but religion does not bring unity. That comment is so misguided.

Ahh I never said it was necessarily a good thing – it’s a bit like the Romans; who managed to achieve religious unity across the empire by incorporating conquered peoples, of course Xtianity was then adopted across the Roman empire when the deification of the Emperor had proved (after the likes of Nero, Caligula to name some well known examples) to be somewhat flawed.
The sync’ of the Solar Emperor God Cult with Xtianity during Constantine’s rule therefore moved the Solar Emperor to a divine place from a human one and that was quite stabilising. It also meant that, from then on, Emperors and Kings had a higher law that they were answerable to.
The focus that religion brought enabled the development of civilisation.

Going back further a similar thing can be argued with the Egyptian, Hittite and other early civilisations.

Would civilisation have occurred without religion? It’s difficult to argue as archaeologists see religion in society from the earliest times.

Would civilisation have occurred without religion?

As above, civilisation is required way before religion.

Civilisation isn’t about roads and temples, it’s about having enough to eat and shelter and water. Then, when you’ve actually got time to worry about ‘what’s it all about, y’know, really’ religion can develop.

Man invented God through fear of the unexplained, as it could not accept that a persons life on this earth (with all the memories of events which happened during their lifetime) gets suddenly terminated, and your body just rots in the ground for worms to feed on. Bit of an anti-climax really.

So they invented the concept of a ‘soul’, which goes onto a ‘better place’.

So they invented the concept of a ‘soul’, which goes onto a ‘better place’.

Or so that you could be subject to an eternity of punishment if you didn’t play by ‘this life’ rules?

Monkeeknutz Wins, Surfer erm… second

Good luck MrNutt, changing a long held viewpoint can be tough.

If you want suggestions then try a couple of different translations of the bible as well. Sometimes just seeing something said in a slightly different way can help.

If you go for IanB’s suggestion of ‘The Shack’ then also be prepared just to put it down. It’s not my cup of tea either but again it is another way of looking at things that can change your picture of faith.

Folks here have separated faith and religion – good idea. Religion can help but it can clearly get in the way as well. Try different ‘flavours’. I know this can be a cue for people to relive some of their bad experiences in these places but there are also good ones. Finding a community of like minded folks isn’t necessary but it can help and it doesn’t need to be a church.

quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with

I think you need to remember that quantum theory is not an explanation of reality. It is a statistical methodology for making predictions. If an experiment takes two measurements at two different times, it can say what happens at t2 given t1, but it can say nothing about what happens in between t1 and t2.

It has of course provide devastatingly useful as a tool, but in terms of explanatory powers of what reality actually is, it says nothing.

I refer you to tonights episode of the Simpsons.. although I have to concede that the coincidence of this programme being screened at the same time as this topic being discussed may well be an act of god… or dog.. or something

mavisto i’m not exploring this for personal gain, more an insight to if faith is the right thing for me, more specifically the Christian faith, it may be a result of my schooling although it was never forced down our throats the CoE was part of it, that said my father is an athiest and my mother agnostic, neither my younger brother or sister practice any form of faith let alone religion. I am doing this for me, i’m talking about it because i think it helps to hear different view points 🙂

Oh well. Here we are again.

The Bible and other ancient texts were written by people who were trying to explain what they experienced around them, who were not yet advanced enough to know what germs were and thought plagues were a sign that “god” was angry with them. Some variants thought that sacrificing people would do the trick, but it didn’t seem to make any difference, so they killed more and more people and still it didn’t make any difference.

The obvious reason for this never occurred to them.

Personally, I see absolutely no reason to try and find meaning in a bunch of fairy tales made up ny ignorant bronze-age tribes who throught the sun was a personality, rather than a continuous nuclear reaction in space.

I was surprised to find that it took until page four, for the unread and muddle-headed amongst us to attack Richard Dawkins with the sort of personal piss-take which they always complain about if it is directed at themselves.

Obviously, with regard to arguably the most significant author of the new century so far, they have no argument worth a damn.

Mr Nutt – stop wasting your time. Either that, or get back to us when you find any evidence of religion’s claims being true.

You will have overturned thousands of years of failure by the religious to do this, and your nobel prize will be waiting.

PS: By the way, Nutt old boy -regarding your chosen cult – you do know that there is no actual evidence that the alleged Nazarene ever existed and is nothing more than a story that someone made up, don’t you?