Leith Hill – MEGA – who knows about this?????

As the op notes, I was one of the riders who saw rider #36 at the tower after the event. Whilst part of me thought this would be great fun, I agree with udder on this one. Ok so 36 riders this time with no issues, but what happens when 50 or 100 turn up? As mentioned above, there is a lot of sensitivity about biking in the area, and it’s far too easy to latch onto this type of event and create negative stories.

Keep it underground, don’t do it in the same place twice and I don’t have too much of a problem with it, but to make this a regular thing just invites trouble.

Duplicate post!

+1 what udder and heihei said

Idea is great. Getting on with it quietly is great. Shouting about it on web forums – very not great.

Real world Bent Udder is right. Anybody hear about David Millars 13 minute lap of Richmond Park? Averaging ~12mph over the speed limit. Got splashed all over the BBC and now the plod are cracking down on speeding bikes in RP. Similar idea, although hopefully not so mainstream if stuff like this on Leith gets made public domain.

This does indeed look like a lot of fun, but I have to conclude on the side of the perceived “killjoys”. Having 36 or so riders involved in a mass event in a high profile spot like Leith Hill Tower and having a free-for-all down the hill past the dog walker (without any marshaling or warnings it seems) is merely asking for trouble. As has been mentioned, there is a clear code of conduct on Hurtwood and it is extremely selfish to abuse this and risk access for all.

I dont understand the under-current of selfishness in mtb these days. The consensus seems to be we have rights, bu$$er the rest.I am fed up with having to defend cyclists be it road or mtb but at times we get the hassle we deserve.

Having said this and on the point of hitting “send” I started to think about the Leith Hill half marathon. I run in this and this is anti-soclal to the extent that it blocks the paths at the start, so perhaps I am a hypocrit? But at least runners are not a danger to other users.

Sorry was forgetting myself for a minute there – obviously this kind of thing is a disgrace and those taking part should feel dirty and ashamed of themselves.

While I am mostly for gentle respectful behaviour and polite negotiation with other countryside users, IMO once in a while something organised and on a scale like this makes a useful point.

<pulls up soapbox, places scratched record on gramophone etc.>

We are too fragmented as a community, and the people who do have access to the powers that be, are too reluctant to take the help of others when offerred (or maybe just too busy – in which case… take the offer)

Why this is I have no idea – but dorkingtrailpixie made a point about in-fighting in another thread and I can see why he might think that (assuming pixies are boys and not girls or androgynous).

Just because we all like mountain-biking doesn’t mean we all have to agree, and doesn’t mean the rest of the world expects us to present a united front/consistent view. As long as we dont start bitching at each other at the Hurtwood AGM or NT meetings things will be better the more of us there are involved.

teamhurtmore – no offence but please look at the map below and work out where the Hurtwood starts and ends before you post any more about it.

This was on NT land.

http://www.friendsofthehurtwood.co.uk/images/stories/hurtwoodos-cps.pdf

These kind of details are quite important when you are posting on a public forum.

“Got splashed all over the BBC and now the plod are cracking down on speeding bikes in RP. “

Cant say I agree with your cause and effect here.

Plod were making a half-arsed effort with speeding bikes well before DM went round at supersonic speed. Also a BBC journo took part in the ‘event’ and they are well complicit in it.

That said I dont intend slowing down in Richmond Park any time soon, and I dont expect to get busted for it either.

Winterfold – no offence taken and I was aware of the fact. But nevertheless it seems a sensible code of conduct for the whole areas, surely? Actually, I fear that NT land is even worse. Its all about balance in the end.

Winterfold – not looking for “biff” but how does the cycling community benefit from comments like “I dont intend slowing down in Richmond Park any time soon, and I dont expect to get busted for it either”? We all have to respect the laws on the road (cars, horses, bikes, pedestrians) and show respect for all land users when mtb-ing, surely?

I’m with Bent Udder on this. I simply can’t understand why anyone would want to organise or get involved in a full hardy scheme like this. It is exactly what isn’t needed in such a senstive area like this.

Good that this is being debated.

What’s the first rule of Fight Club?

Leith Hill has a patchwork of ownership – not just NT. For example, the land that Deliverance is on is actually owned by a group of locals. The ancient boundary line at the top of Regurgitator is a boundary between NT and FC-leased land.

This means that, in some cases, there is no particular process. The owner won’t consult with groups or anything, they’ll just close stuff down.

This isn’t the first time there’s been some sort of unofficial race in the area, done for laughs. This *is* one of the first times people have made a huge song and dance about it, and posted video evidence of it up on the internet. I imagine anyone wanting to show mountain bikers in the area in a negative light would use that video, and this thread, as evidence.

To a landowner, proof that unofficial, uninsured races are taking place on their land means they have to show a duty of care to other users in order for their own insurance to be valid. To translate: if they don’t take action, someone hit by people racing (for example the dog walker in the video) can sue the landowner, and because the landowner has done nothing to stop the races, their insurance could be invalid.

Incidentally, the Leith Hill Run is an event that’s sanctioned and insured. Not sure how many of you remember the Nirvana races in Redlands, but they were also sanctioned and insured.

Teanhurtmore – sometimes the law is an ass – you can often spot this when there is clear and documented evidence of transgression and plod does nowt – I don’t expect Millar to be getting a ticket anytime soon. Why not suggest to the local plod he books the Local hunt if you want another perspective? You might be surprised who else will break the law when it suits and is impracticable or unenforceable.

This does not imply you disrespect other people or behave in a way that endangers them – most of us I would hope do not need a law or bylaw to tell them that.

Bent_udder yes NT is an over-simplification that route would be a nightmare to negotiate with FC landowners etc etc

The insurance thing is a big issue which complicates matters hugely. I am at a loss to understand the kind of bell- end who would ride cheeky or permissively then sue the landowner because they stacked hucking or racing but the fear of litigation makes things tricky for people who understand and accept the consequences of their actions.

But… I do think once in a while something like this makes a point that needs making – there are plenty of us and we are not going away. It makes in a way that hanging around peaslake bus stop doesn’t.

(that said they shouldnt have gone down the path from the tower)

Winterfold, it’s not the person riding cheekily who will sue. That’s a pretty common misconception.

Say you’re a self-employed builder. You have insurance to cover you if you’re injured. You stack hard, break a load of bones and can’t work. So you claim on your insurance. The insurer looks to mitigate the costs – they have to pay up, but if they can get someone else to pay, they do. Who has lots of cash – or insurance? The landowner.

What if you’re in full time employment? Well, the employer will have to arrange cover for you while you’re laid up watching Trisha. They claim on their insurance.

Say you’re a dog walker who is hit by someone in an unofficial race. You might not be able to work – going back to the employment insurance stuff above – or you might think that you probably didn’t deserve to be hit, and where there’s blame, there’s a claim.

It’s not your fault you were hit – there weren’t any signs saying not to walk there, and you were minding you’re own business. Now, if you were hit by a mountain biker minding their own business too, that’s one thing. If you can prove that you were hit by a mountain biker racing in some sort of organised event that was known of by the landowner, then you can really go to town.

In all cases, the landowner has to prove a duty of care. For example, they have to prove they didn’t sanction the race. They have to prove they were unaware of this type of event was taking place on a regular basis. They have to prove that they didn’t take reasonable care to contact the organiser – someone very, very well known by now to landowners in the area – and point all this out. If they can’t prove they took care, their insurance is void, and they’re liable.

Take a look at some of the reasons why the original Repack races came to an end.

You’re right – we aren’t going away. Hikers had to do the same, and overcome very similar preconceptions, when the Rambler’s Association was set up in the 20s. Nowadays, landowners are incredibly keen to make sure that walkers as well as equestrians are catered to. However, stuff like the Kinder trespass is a million miles away from what we’re talking about here. Like it or not, what we post on forums is used to justify or denigrate what we are and what we do. This thread is probably going to be used to do the latter.

I’m with BU and the other so-called killjoys here because this is exactly the kind of shit that’s going to do nothing but harm regarding the public’s perception of MTBing in the area.

Where are the notices and the marshals, etc?

What’s going to happen if a walker gets hit? Or their dog? Or little child?

It’s all very well a bunch of riders tearing around BWs and ‘proper’ trails in the way that most of us do on group rides, but having respect for other ‘users’ must remain paramount. Organising an unofficial race along BWs (FFS!) devoid of notices/marshals is just wrong. Even more so when the adrenaline of ‘the race’ kicks in, with people jostling for positions/placing/lines etc.

The bloke and his dog in the vid are damn lucky. If I was taking my family along part of that ‘route’ and a rider hit my dog, then I’d likely remove his forks and beat the shit out of him with them.

Smacks of a total disregard for other people.

If people want to race with numbers like that, then do it properly. Or FRO.

I would have complete sympathy for the dog walker above (hence CTC 3rd party but would prefer they never got hit) but as self employed worker if I take risks, stack and am off work there is only one person to blame…

I also sympathise with the pressure on landowners face. Particulary as you describe.

You’re right though there are letigious bellends about and lots if money to be made and it effects people who judge their own risks and don’t blame others when it goes pear-shaped

Winterfold, I can see what you mean, but are you saying that if you are laid up and can’t work, you won’t claim on insurance?

It might be your fault, and I certainly wouldn’t blame anyone but myself if I was in that situation, but how would you pay your mortgage or keep the family in food and clothes? Sure, you might have a bit put by, but do you think everyone would selflessly turn down the change to make use of the insurance they’ve been paying for? I’ve been laid off a couple of times, and I’ve certainly filled out the insurance paperwork in preparation for not being able to line up another job.

CTC third party wouldn’t cover someone under the conditions you mention above, by the way.

and the shark has been jumped! nice one, it was good while it lasted

yes bent_udder – If I’m going to stack bad then I need to go all the way and leave it to life insurance. If Mrs Winterfold is on here asking about Hayes brakes let me know :D. The sickness and accident insurance is too expensive and looks too difficult to claim on.

What the State provides is fair enough – dont have problems with people claiming that – the DWP arent going to sue the Forestry Commission cos I fell off Cliff Richard though are they? Not that I do those, too much chance of it going pear-shaped to be responsible.

Broken collarbone type stuff should be doable as it is ‘knowledge work’ so not like being a builder.

Better check the small print on the CTC membership…

I guess the point here is that stuff like this has been done before – quite a bit, in fact – but it’s always kept a low, low profile. As Jon put it:

Idea is great. Getting on with it quietly is great. Shouting about it on web forums – very not great.

There’s a big difference between having a laugh and not cheesing other users and landowners off, and making a big old song and dance about it on t’internet. To answer the OP’s question – Who knows about it? – I’m guessing pretty much everyone now, and not just mountain bikers. 🙁

Yeah fair do’s.

I wonder if J1m would let us run through on his land? 🙂

Ask him! One of the things I’ve found out over the years is that, once you start talking to the landowners, you find out that they’re remarkably open-minded about stuff – but also have to take into account factors that would never occur to the average mountain biker, walker or horse rider. The mountain bikers round this neck of the woods have made a lot of progress over the last ten years simply by talking to the authorities and showing that we’re actually pretty easy to get on with.

No animals were harmed or anyone injured. Before people realised what was happening it was over . Between 15 and 20 minutes ,sorry ,14 and 20, of great fun, except the poor protester in red lycra who met Herman the German touching 30 mph… It was a one off event that came and went with no real upset or inconvenience to any householder , horse rider or dog walker. We all appreciate what is being done for riders in the area which is why designated routes and bridleways were used . The only time there was 30+ riders was at the top and at the finish,groups of 6 or 7 were only together other than that. Thanks to those involved ,who planned and organised, especially the cold ones at the end.No more negatives please, we are all riders, just some are better than others .

Some are better than others, I agree.

Better at being stealthy.

So…

Inspired by this thread I went for a ride on Leith today doing something like this route…

And I saw 3 lots of people. One was another MTB rider in the car park , another wasca group of young mums and kids on path to tower and the last was a (miserable) dog walker when I did windy willows before going MEGA 🙂

And then i did not see a single soul – including journey back to starveall

This was 2-4pm on fri avo in June on some of the most desirable land in our crowded isle – which is anything but IMO

If riders want to do this kind of thing I guess all they need to do is take 1/2 day off

For all those in the loop we are taking this under ground keep an eye on your text and do not post on this forum.
For all the anity grumpy kill joys see you next Tuesday!

jake-snake – Member
For all those in the loop we are taking this under ground keep an eye on your text and do not post on this forum.
For all the anity grumpy kill joys see you next Tuesday!

Maturity and thinking-of-other-people FAIL!

“For all of those in the loop”……..why you writing that here rather than ‘in the loop’.

When your actions get my biking fun restricted in my favourite place, killjoy won’t quite describe you.

…or it could just be to wind people up further… 😛

Sound plan. How’s Bull Track going, Jake?

The jam its hard to bet them

They didn’t do a very good job of taking it underground, “around 70” riders this time, riding racing down leith hill. The national trust ranger was around to see it too.

PPPPPPLLLLLLLLEAASE don’t get us banned/restricted any further.

Its all over twitter and strava.

The great and good of surrey biking won it.

Howard wagstaff – pedal and spoke
dany milner – mbr

they should know better really, although it was probably good fun!

@freeridenick – so that’s what you were talking of last night outside Nirvana then !

36 riders last year according to this thread, and I heard 70 this year. Doubled.

So what’s liable to happen is:
* a walker or someone will get injured or worse
* there’ll be a clampdown, with enforcement, on access

Not cool in anyway at all. People who did it, think through what you’re doing please. It’s not harmless fun.

Go do something like the Weekender. Leith Hill is not the place for this.

Nice job, there are enough access issues as it is

Thought Howard would know better

Yep, nice one, just whats needed in that area, what a stupid and foolish idea.

Well according to Strava, the great and good of Surrey as you put it were slower than Tony B who I believe is from Sussex.