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Legal advice please – cancelling a new car dispute
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aracerFree Member
this bit is relevant:
The mass-outrage on this forum, seems to be that I have been “punitive” in wanting to charge a £500+vat (£600) agency fee to the customer (not Mick), to recover some of my costs, to repay to the supplying dealer. I normally waive that, and swallow costs…
Good, because you’re not entitled to charge a customer anything when they cancel the arrangement within the 14 day cooling off period.
but in this case I was annoyed
which doesn’t entitle you to ignore the law.
This charge is still being looked at and discussed
I hope you have a lawyer helping you out – it should be a quick discussion.
just a 3rd party who wanted a new car he would not have passed finance approval, on.
So you wouldn’t have ever ordered the car would you, given you don’t place the order until the finance is approved. Maybe you could clarify this one for us, you’ve been asked several times but you’re rather coy about it – exactly what external costs have you incurred on a car which you haven’t ordered?
JamieFree MemberJust for the record, it’s not mass outrage. Don’t confuse those who shout the loudest and most frequently as the majority. Most of us are sat up in the cheap seats throwing peanuts at both sides.
Although it does look like the professional arguers have rolled in.
PiknMixFree MemberEveryone seems to have forgotten some key facts here…
Ding a ling a ling . . . round ~78
AlphabetFull MemberThis charge is still being looked at and discussed
Well it certainly is on here.
lingFree MemberTiger6791 – Member
Quote from geordieboy00
I’ve not signed the finance docs, or paid a deposit yet. Her approach is aggressive and she’s told me on the 2nd message she has a 100% record of suing people who back out!
Here we go again. I’ll say this once. The person posting here is not the customer, so is posting hearsay.
This is what I told the customer verbatim, copied and pasted directly: “I’ve recovered this in court before and never lost a Small Claims Court case regarding this charge.” Which is very different to the MADE UP comments from Geordieboy00.
Re the timeline, of course I told the customer (not Geordieboy00) of the charge, prompting the original post where Geordieboy represented himself as the customer.
That first post just reinforced my opinion. As did subsequent events.
However, I also told the CUSTOMER (not Geordieboy00) before Geordieboy00 made the first post: “I’ll do my very best to minimise those costs, I need to argue your case to the supplier”.
You see, I was trying my best to sort out what I thought was a *genuine* customer, not an accommodation deal.
Ling
tomhowardFull MemberHow does an hourly rental of £500 +VAT sound?
Can I have it cheaper if I only need it for a minute?
aracerFree MemberYou could always just sort him out by giving him his statutory rights. I’m still really enjoying how upset you’re getting over something that hadn’t happened though.
What external costs have you incurred?
Have you even ordered the car?
wwaswasFull MemberMost of us are sat up in the cheap seats throwing peanuts at both sides
very much this.
tomhowardFull MemberTomhoward that is an irrelevant picture. You’ve merely used a modified image of an occasion where the Chinese authorities tried to ride roughshod over the tights of the people
Lolz, missed that.
But they are yellow, and they are ducks…
Are there any other metaphors in the pic I’ve missed?
lingFree Memberaracer – Member
given you don’t place the order until the finance is approved.
Let me put this ordering cars stuff to bed.
1. The finance WAS approved in this case, on Oct 11th.
But, I think you might mean I don’t order cars until the finance docs are signed…
Of course I DO. I order as soon as the customer send me a signed car order. At the moment I’m selling Audi A4s at £221/mth. They are Feb/March 2018 delivery. I have to get them factory ordered, so I order them via my supplier as soon as the customer signs an order form, then the factory order is placed. I’m doing loads of these at the moment.
If they get cancelled by the customer before they land in February, then I will have charges. Of course, what to do with new cars that roll up in Feb without customers? By them the price will change if re-financed then (guaranteed) as residuals go up and down like prostitute knickers.
Sheesh.
I do over 1000 new cars a year, glad you seem such an expert aracer.
Ling
JunkyardFree MemberAlthough it does look like the professional arguers have rolled in.
we are just enabling someone to make a Killing
“I’ve recovered this in court before and never lost a Small Claims Court case regarding this charge.” Which is very different to the MADE UP comments from Geordieboy00
both statements claim 100% success what makes you see them as very different?
PS you forget to evidence the claims you are making. Did Trading standards approve your T & C ?
Yet again you berate someone on accuracy whilst ignoring any question on the accuracy of your statements. The lack of answers is going to lead to many concluding that you were indeed being less than 100 % honest in at least some of your statements.lingFree MemberJamie – Member
Just for the record, it’s not mass outrage. Don’t confuse those who shout the loudest and most frequently as the majority. Most of us are sat up in the cheap seats throwing peanuts at both sides.
Although it does look like the professional arguers have rolled in.
Oooops, sorry. Thank goodness for the silent majority, then 🙂
– Ling
martinhutchFull MemberAt the moment I’m selling Audi A4s at £221/mth. They are Feb/March 2018 delivery. I have to get them factory ordered, so I order them via my supplier as soon as the customer signs an order form, then the factory order is placed. I’m doing loads of these at the moment.
Awesome stealth ad! Precisely targeted at the STW audience. 🙂
Are you sure you can’t get into Santa Cruz leasing?
orangespydermanFull MemberFrank I’d be interested in your argument as the why The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, don’t apply to lings business model , and why you think a cancellation clause claiming an unspecified sum may fall due in unspecified circumstances is contractually binding.
Ling – crankboy asked this to another poster earlier, but I would be very interested in your answer to this fairly clear question. You could shut up a lot of the “mass outrage” by a clear answer to the above, I think.
ScamperFree MemberIsn’t there a screenshot about 50 pages back which indicated the car would not be ordered before the finance docs were signed?
aracerFree MemberMy apologies. What I actually mean is that you don’t order cars until finance is in place. Which would appear to require signing of the finance documents, because until they’re signed the finance isn’t actually in place is it, whether or not it’s approved?
gofasterstripesFree MemberHave we finished the popcorn yet? I only meant to miss the trailers, oops.
funkmasterpFull Memberwhat if they bring it back before they rent it?
Highly likely given that it’s a time machine 🙄 😉
Jamie – can you pass me some more peanuts please?
johnnersFree MemberMost of us are sat up in the cheap seats throwing peanuts at both sides
Absolutely. Also, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the issue, Ling’s posts on Ps 42 & 43 are easily the most lucid and least hyperbolic on this thread.
A4 anyone?
lingFree Membermartinhutch – Member
At the moment I’m selling Audi A4s at £221/mth. They are Feb/March 2018 delivery. I have to get them factory ordered, so I order them via my supplier as soon as the customer signs an order form, then the factory order is placed. I’m doing loads of these at the moment.
Awesome stealth ad! Precisely targeted at the STW audience.
Thanks so much!!! Repeated again above.
Unsure why it’s a “perfect match with STW audience”?
Because most are tight?
Because it’s an image thing and an Audi badge suits?
Because some are Nazi-leaning and can’t afford a BMW?
Here’s something I made to annoy the Remoaners to lighten the tone: …
I worked closely with a current UK Gov Cabinet Minister to make sure I did my utmost to help promote Brexit. Glad I could help 🙂
– Ling
aracerFree MemberWe have sensible ling today, the ranting version is locked in a cupboard. She’s still writing a load of whataboutery and running a business model which doesn’t respect consumer rights though.
Not really surprising she’s a Brexiteer though – I wonder if she had anything to do with all the Brexit BS?
lingFree Memberaracer – Member
ling » But, I think you might mean I don’t order cars until the finance docs are signed…
Of course I DO.My apologies. What I actually mean is that you don’t order cars until finance is in place. Which would appear to require signing of the finance documents, because until they’re signed the finance isn’t actually in place is it, whether or not it’s approved?
No, aracer. Finance docs can’t (maybe legally?) be raised until the vehicle exists in the UK. Why?? Cos, a car has to have a reg number on the docs, and the DVLA won’t issue one unless a car is physical UK. So, of course factory order cars must be ordered, hammered together, shipped on Das Boot, and then land UK before finance docs can even be raised, never mind signed. Or else they would not be able to have a reg plate appended to them.
But car orders are almost 100% always placed before the finance docs are even raised.
It’s not really a point to argue about, it’s just a fact.
Thanks for the nice tone in your post, appreciated.
– Ling
aracerFree MemberDoesn’t seem that special a deal in case anybody was tempted: http://www.appliedleasing.co.uk/personal-lease-cars/audi/a4-saloon/a4-saloon-14t-fsi-se-4dr-245747327
aracerFree MemberOh, so “I can’t hold any deal until finance is in place” would be a lie?
johnnersFree MemberDoesn’t seem that special a deal in case anybody was tempted:
Annual mileage half that of Ling’s deal, to save a fiver.
Remarkable that you didn’t notice that…
twicewithchipsFree MemberI have a question about process please. If Ling’s approach has been tested at small claims court, surely the hearing/finding is a matter of public record?
Would that record confirm the opinions expressed about legality, and does that set precedent for other cases?
outofbreathFree MemberDoesn’t seem that special a deal in case anybody was tempted: http://www.appliedleasing.co.uk/personal-lease-cars/audi/a4-saloon/a4-saloon-14t-fsi-se-4dr-245747327
6.1 If the Customer for any reason (except in accordance with clause 2.6 ) wishes to terminate the Contract he must inform AL in writing and will incur an administration charge of £250 which shall be satisfied by the forfeit of the Deposit. The Customer shall also be liable to AL for any additional cancellation fees or costs incurred by AL in respect of the cancellation and such sum shall be paid to AL within 14 days of AL receiving written notice and any sum outstanding thereafter shall attract interest at a rate of 5% per annum above Barclays Bank plc base rate.
Just like Ling they charge a cancellation fee. Just like Ling their T&C’s don’t mention the statutory cooling off period (which two of our resident lawyers say is a criminal offence.)
lingFree Memberaracer – Member
ling » But car orders are almost 100% always placed before the finance docs are even raised.
Oh, so “I can’t hold any deal until finance is in place” would be a lie?
Tsk, aracer, you got me there… if you made any sense.
But you don’t.
“Finance in place” means a customer is a) proposed, and b) approved.
That’s it. The finance is in place and approved and ready.
THEN (and this may be months afterwards) the car lands in the UK, (or an existing UK car is allocated sooner), and the finance docs are raised for signing. Then signed and returned, than cooling off (on the finance aspect) applies.
But the car is ordered as soon as finance is approved and a customer returns signed order form. Of course it is.
Unsure why you want to argue on and on about this non-point? Surely most people see the sense in what I’m saying here?
– Ling
andyrmFree MemberAn interesting question for the “Mick hasn’t done anything wrong – it’s not illegal so the moral aspect doesn’t count” crowd.
How do you all feel about the Starbucks/Google (et al) offshoring thing to avoid tax? I think pretty much to a man, we’d all agree that while grossly immoral, by making use of the relevant bits of law not necessarily in the spirit of fair play, there’s a big similarity to Mick’s original intent – that intent being to try and find something in the terms to use as a get out clause.
Remember, this is someone who’s post and thread starting history suggests (many, many times if you read back – I’ll not do him the disservice of quoting but it’s all there to see) that his first thought when up against it isn’t “what’s the right thing to do here?”, but “how can I get out of this?”.
No doubt someone will roll out the classic STW phrase “whataboutery” – I’d counter that by saying what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. We can’t expect mega corporations to hold themselves to higher ethical (if not legal) standards if we first don’t hold ourselves to those same standards. “Is this a bit of a d*ck move?” is always a good starting point when thinking out loud about what to do, in my experience.
If – and only if – there are flaws in the legality around Ling’s paperwork, then of course, that needs to be looked at in this case.
But what it doesn’t do is undo the OP’s intent right at the very outset, which was to try and wriggle out of something and find a “get out of jail free” – and from a personal perspective, this is the bit I have biggest issue with, someone who’s intent is always to try and get away with not owning the consequences of poor decision making and . Add that to the sense of entitlement to have a vehicle the OP can’t afford (as per industry accepted credit and affordability check facilities) by any means necessary including bending rules, leveraging other people’s finances with scant regard for what happens if the deal goes wrong at any point in the chain, the multiple changes of story, self-admitted lies on this thread, some irregularities to the back story when you use post history for timelining & verification, and all of a sudden, this feels like someone who’s used to playing the game to get what he wants. That’s where I have issue – the lack of ownership. Life doesn’t happen to you, it happens because of you.
If ever there was a fitting time to use the phrase “two wrongs don’t make a right” it’s probably this. Nobody’s covered themselves in glory (I’d even include myself in that as I’m self aware enough to recognise that my own moral compass makes me extremely unforgiving of those who look to blame others for the consequences of their own actions) here, but I’d definitely be interested to see how this plays out in court.
lingFree Memberoutofbreath – Member
Doesn’t seem that special a deal in case anybody was tempted: http://www.appliedleasing.co.uk/personal-lease-cars/audi/a4-saloon/a4-saloon-14t-fsi-se-4dr-245747327
6.1 If the Customer for any reason (except in accordance with clause 2.6 ) wishes to terminate the Contract he must inform AL in writing and will incur an administration charge of £250 which shall be satisfied by the forfeit of the Deposit. The Customer shall also be liable to AL for any additional cancellation fees or costs incurred by AL in respect of the cancellation and such sum shall be paid to AL within 14 days of AL receiving written notice and any sum outstanding thereafter shall attract interest at a rate of 5% per annum above Barclays Bank plc base rate.[/b]
Just link Ling they charge a cancellation fee. Just like Ling their T&C’s don’t mention the statutory cooling off period (which two of our resident lawyers say is a criminal offence.)
[/quote]AND it seems they charge a “DEPOSIT” (from that quote), and just keep it. Which I don’t. I work on trust, which is fine when you can trust the customer to do what they say they will. 99% of the time this is the case, working on trust is cuddly and nice, and anyone (a few) on STW who have had a car from me, will agree.
– Ling
thegreatapeFree MemberUnsure why you want to argue on and on about this non-point?
Are you new here?
Surely most people see the sense in what I’m saying here?
Yes, and I suspect most of my fellow peanut chuckers do. But the ones who’ve dug their heels in won’t ever admit it.
JunkyardFree MemberI work on trust
I dont so where is the proof that your terms and conditions were approved by trading standards ?
lingFree MemberJust to say, everyone posting here (sweeping, I know) is still ignoring the FACT that the OP (geordiebird00) is NOT the customer in this case.
He is just a 3rd party, trying to wing a car he can’t qualify finance for, via a “mate”. Or “bro-in-law” or whatever.
Yes, my order form is being LOOKED AT at the mo, I do accept differences of opinion on the wording… but FFS, the real customer hasn’t spoken a single word, on here; just that person (geordieburp00) giving you the Jackanory stuff.
– Ling
lingFree MemberJunkyard – lazarus
I work on trust
I dont so where is the proof that your terms and conditions were approved by trading standards ?
Unlike the OP, I don’t lie.
– Ling
nealgloverFree MemberJust to say, everyone posting here (sweeping, I know) is still ignoring the FACT that the OP (geordiebird00) is NOT the customer in this case.
Literally nobody is unaware of that irrelevant fact.
Also literally nobody has seen any proof that Gateshead Trading Standards approved your order form and said it was “the best they had ever seen”
So how about that ?
JunkyardFree MemberI am aware of your claim i was asking for proof
Have you got it or not?
Can you proof that on this one point you were not lying?Yes or no will do with the yes including the proof obvs
thegreatapeFree MemberSince my P has lapsed, can someone post a Volvo for Rent tag to complete this thread.
sadexpunkFull Memberi have a feeling that linghammer gif may be seen a lot more on here from now on.
*saves gif for future use.
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