Jeremy Corbyn

Ok so he should have just totally ignored the approx one third of labour voters who voted leave

As opposed to ignoring the two thirds who voted remain, the 90%+ of labour MP’s who wanted to remain, and the 80%+ of labour members who wanted to remain?

I’d say so, yes.

You really are the authentic voice of northern working-class labour voters aren’t you binners.

I don’t think I’ve ever claimed to be that. I’m presently drinking a latte, I’ve got today’s Guardian sat in front of me, then I’m drawing some pictures, which is what I do for a living. I’m hardly about to do a shift darn’t pit, am I?

He didn’t though did he, he just equivocated. I think it was a mistake and showed poor leadership but there would have been an absolute shitstorm of newspaper headlines about how he was betraying the north/’traditional labour voters’ and how out of touch he was, etc etc if he’d campaigned properly for remain. He’d have been characterised as being pro Romanian child snatchers and against bendy bananas.

He couldn’t win.

Sorry grum,

I remember Corbyn descending the steps of a campaign bus, holding a few scraps of A4 paper in his hand and declaring that he’s had a look at options and thought we might be a bit better off if we stayed but wasn’t really too sure.

That was his sum contribution to the Brexit debate, it made Nevile Chamberlain’s ‘peace in our time’ moment look like a victory speech.

If I had had my doubts about him before, that moment confirmed to me how he was completely incapable of leadership.

He couldn’t win?

He never even bloody tried! He went AWOL for 2 months instead!

So much for being a man of integrity? He always wanted Brexit. He doesn’t give a toss what anyone else thinks. The only views Jeremy Corbyn has ever been interested in representing are Jeremy ****ing Corbyn’s.

So he simply disappeared for a couple of months and in doing so, fully facilitated it, leaving us in the present shitshow. The only time he was honest was when he made his rant about triggering article 50 immediately, the morning of the result

He’s a charlatan and a fraud!

Well that’s tough comrade as the country isn’t ready for the glorious revolution

And this just about sums up the pessimism and fatalism of the centrist position. No one wants revolution, we only want new solutions to old problems where the old solutions have demonstrably failed. We keep repeating the same mistakes, and ignore the existential problems staring us in the face. Why? Because the ‘grown ups’ are in charge, and they do very well out of this shitshow so have no reason to change it. Their problems are different to everyone elses.

So we can continue doing what we’re told like obedient little children who know our place, or we can try to change it, and in the process hold on to a tiny amount of hope and optimism that one day we won’t have to worry about things like climate change, pandemics, economic collapse, war or whatever else, and can be confident that our kids will be be happier and bettor off than we were. No doubt I’ll be called a hopeless fantasist, well rather that than accept that global destruction and economic/societal collapse are inevitable, because that’s a one way ticket to some very dark places.

Ever wondered why we have so many discussions on here about suicide and depression?

I desperately wanted him to campaign for Remain too but I can also see that it wasn’t as simple as you are making out,and that my opinion isn’t the only one that matters.

sorry Grum, but he completely dithered on the issue as he is wont to do.

It was a referendum with a binary choice, he needed to clearly come down on one side and he didn’t. Tbh that was due to him being a clear euroskeptic who actually wanted us out. Where was the courage of his convictions then?

I was supportive of him up until then.

It was a referendum with a binary choice, he needed to clearly come down on one side and he didn’t.

Anyone who thinks labour could have solved the brexit conundrum by taking a binary position is a fantasist. The labour party, like the country, was diametrically split on the issue. There was no solution, and whatever they did would have lost them seats somewhere. Stop with the revisionist history to suit your position, it’s makes you look pretty stupid.

Um… I said it was poor leadership and that he equivocated so I’m not sure why everyone is telling me I’m wrong whilst agreeing with me.

I’m not even claiming that Corbyn’s socialism was the best solution at all, but as dazh says there are so many huge issues at stake that nitpicking over coronavirus response while offering nothing different isn’t going to cut it.

In the short-medium term future we are going to see seismic shifts from climate change, automation, AI/algorithms, destruction of ecosystems, loss of soil fertility, food security, future pandemics, antibiotic resistance etc etc.

And here we are arguing about when PPE got ordered or whatever it is this week and being terribly impressed by how much cleverer KS is than a buffoon.

The model we have of the need for constant economic growth is at the heart of so many of our problems but we just blithely accept it because, well….

He couldn’t win.

We’ll never know, will we, as he **** off and didn’t get involved as he wanted out against the most of the rest of the party, and rather than get stuck in, he abdicated his responsibility.

Anyone who thinks labour could have solved the brexit conundrum by taking a binary position is a fantasist.

No one is saying the party should have campaigned one way or the other. We are saying he should have made his position clear. Even **** Cameron managed to do that.

What we are saying here is that we can’t cope with nuance or balance and we need over-simplified binary choices because we are idiots. We really do get the politicians we deserve.

What we are saying here is that we can’t cope with nuance or balance and we need over-simplified binary choices because we are idiots.

The risk of offering a nuanced message is that you’re up again a bunch of liars whose message is plain, direct and emotionally weighted.

That’s the problem for not just the likes of Corbyn, but any ‘I can see both sides of this’ politician. Be reasonable by all means, but expect to get steamrolled by someone who doesn’t share your intellectual approach or ethical values, or has jettisoned them because they would rather win. A sad state of affairs, but that is where we are. The proportion of the electorate who respond to nuanced discussion is far too low.

An even better one. Cue insults about being a utopian dreamer..

Who are the growups? Those who blindly carry on as if nothing is wrong and refuse to recognise what’s obvious, or those who use their common sense to come to the very simple conclusion that something has to change?

https://www.waterstones.com/book/why-we-get-the-wrong-politicians/isabel-hardman/9781782399759

An even better one. Cue insults about being a utopian dreamer..

Who are the growups? Those who blindly carry on as if nothing is wrong and refuse to recognise what’s obvious, or those who use their common sense to come to the very simple conclusion that something has to change?

There is nothing wrong with the premise that something has to change. What the left need to realise is that they need to take the voters on a journey. Saying that everything is going to change immediately after being elected is the fastest way of not being elected. That’s why the last election was such a disaster, radical manifesto with daily announcements on extra spending or commitments, it didn’t add up, people didn’t believe it could be done, you lose by 80 seats

What we are saying here is that we can’t cope with nuance or balance and we need over-simplified binary choices because we are idiots. We really do get the politicians we deserve.

Not at all, but the referendum ‘was’ a binary choice. Corbyn could possibly have shown leadership and pushed for remain whilst arguing for a looser relationship, or he could have come down in favour of leave and explained his position that way. He could have been more bipartisan in his politics and reached out to moderate conservatives, in fact there a a myriad of other choices that were better than going into hiding for two months.

What surprises me the most is why if he caused that much trouble the party didnt vote him out years ago.

No one wants revolution, we only want new solutions to old problems

Yes, that is exactly how the majority of people feel. They would not see a revolution as a good thing and it may actually end up worse afterwards – see history for results of revolutions…

Believe it or not the country would like a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories. What we don’t want is yet more internal party politics an infighting for the sake of scoring policy points.

Believe it or not the country would like the Tory party as is – they’ve only just been voted in!

We are sleepwalking into revolution whether we like it or not. Some kind of strategy and planning might make it much easier on people when it really starts to bite.

What surprises me the most is why if he caused that much trouble the party didnt vote him out years ago.

Because at the time he was a harmless backbencher who had friends you wouldn’t invite round but who could keep a section of the left wing base happy. Why get rid of him when you could ignore the constant votes against whip and keep the peace and claim to have a broad church of the left.

Those who blindly carry on as if nothing is wrong and refuse to recognise what’s obvious, or those who use their common sense to come to the very simple conclusion that something has to change?

Or those who fail to realise that change does not happen overnight: Demanding radical change has to happen NOW means you don’t get elected & you instead get a government that takes you even further away from where you want to be.
Yes, you are a fantasist if you believe that a party which stands for the immediate overthrow of the existing norms of society will ever succeed in an election, especially in the UK which has always managed to transform society in a non-revolutionary manner(see history). As someone said above. You have to take the public with you.

pondo,

Could it not be both?

I think it is, completely, despite what our resident propagandist shrieks.

We are sleepwalking into revolution whether we like it or not.

You lot have been saying that since the Russian Revolution.

And we’re no closer to it happening in this country than we were then. In fact, it’s infinitely less likely than it was then

How about re-engaging with reality and the 99.9% of the UK population who have zero interest in any form of revolution, and would just like some reasonably competent people in charge who aren’t a gang of utter ****s!

I’m not talking about a socialist revolution FFS. I’m talking about all the stuff mentioned above regarding climate change, automation etc that’s already affecting us right now.

KS’ crap Tony Blair tribute act without the charisma is rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

It’s funny the main person hung up on 70s socialism seems to be you binners, you see it everywhere apparently.

And anyway, what makes you think that any form of revolution would hand power to the left to deliver a socialist utopia

Surely the last 5 years have shown us that any revolution in Brexit Britain (and you could argue that Brexit itself is a revolution of sorts) would be far more liKey to deliver something more akin to fascism than socialism?

I don’t, which is why I never suggested such a thing.

No one wants revolution, we only want new solutions to old problems

You’re quite right, that sounds terrible.

Demanding radical change has to happen NOW means you don’t get elected & you instead get a government that takes you even further away from where you want to be.

But where does chasing a Tory party moving further and further to the right get us? The only meaningful opposition is still massively pro-capitalism, hell even Corbyn was.

It’s a peculiar form of doublethink when you are accused of being a lunatic for thinking we should pay attention to the most serious issues facing us, rather than just fiddling around the edges and carrying on pretending everything is ok.

Its not about chasing the Tory party, it’s about chasing the public, gauging their mood and finding ways to sell or implement policies without scaring the horses.

Revolutions will always lead to uncertainty. Those who start them are rarely there when they end, the situation nearly always being exploited by bad faith actors. The public knows this so is wary of those with utopian visions.

You can’t teleport yourself into a utopian future, progress is not made that way, it is made piecemeal, through small steps and adjustments.

If you’re trying to sell an idea of the future that hinges on everything in the present being wrong then you are presenting yourself as a messiah. This is as true for Trump as it is for Corbyn, it’s just that Corbyn isn’t as good a salesman as Trump.

IME most people in this country hate each other and begrudge anyone that’s not like them a living, unless it’s viewed as noble enough! Most things are done via stitch-ups and spite, which is encouraged in the survival of the fittest workplace, where you are constantly reminded how grateful you should be and how lucky you are.

People continually vote for liars, as long as it’s broadly (in the loosest sense) in-line with their ideology and stoked rage du jour, then complain about them being liars.

The only radical things that gain fervent support are usually punishments of one form or another.

Agree, the majority of the country are pretty horrible and selfish people which explains why we have a tory government most of the time, it is what people want. That is democracy I’m afraid.

I’ve got some news for all the people saying change can’t happen fast, you have to wait til the people want it etc. WE DON”T HAVE TIME. If you haven’t been paying attention climate change is approaching the pointy end. The forests are burning, the rainforests disappearing, the sea is almost dead, the permafrost is melting, and the arctic will soon be free of ice. When the tipping points kick in there is no way back, and some of them are happening now. When it really gets going all the major crises that have affected human civilisation throughout history will look like a tea party, and the result will be widespread economic, social and poltical collapse.

Rapid change is possible, it’s happened many times, the latest example being covid. Pretty much overnight we threw out decades of economic dogma and decided we could support workers by paying their wages, and prop up businesses who would otherwise close. We could take away freedoms when it was necessary with a few days notice and shut down entire industries, and we can massively accelerate the development of vaccines, and reorganise society to combat the virus and care for those affected. History actually shows that we can change much faster than anyone thinks. So why don’t we? Because the public allow themselves to be fooled that everything is impossible, by the people who stand to lose out if anything does change.

He’s always been a protester rather than a politician. He got promoted way above where he was comfortable and that showed his incompetence and idealism to everyone. He let brexit slip by whilst he hid, he let anti-semitism run rife in the party and he had 2 appalling election losses. If there are enough people in the labour party that really want it to move farther left they really need to get behind a leader not a protester. I still don’t think that would work though as you need to win over the voters first. As the tories have shown, get into power whilst right of centre and then let the loonies take control and off you go to the extremes.

IME most people in this country hate each other and begrudge anyone that’s not like them a living, unless it’s viewed as noble enough! Most things are done via stitch-ups and spite, which is encouraged in the survival of the fittest workplace, where you are constantly reminded how grateful you should be and how lucky you are.

People continually vote for liars, as long as it’s broadly (in the loosest sense) in-line with their ideology and stoked rage du jour, then complain about them being liars.

The only radical things that gain fervent support are usually punishments of one form or another.

Thoroughly depressing.

And entirely accurate.

That is the basic reason for all the shite that has gone down the last 4-5 years. Petty spite, general nastiness, selfishness and barely hidden prejudice. All being exhibited by (in a global sense) on of the most privileged populaces in the world.

**** Brexit, **** Trump, **** Johson, **** Cummings, **** them all.

**** Brexit, **** Trump, **** Johson, **** Cummings, **** them all.

I can agree with he last one but the the others were all voted for by the public. Ask yourself why? Because we allow ourselves to be conned and bought off even though it’s not in our interests.

Until people wake up and start demanding the things we are always told are impossible, the likes of Trump and Boris will always be on top. And as long as people like Starmer, Blair, Brown, Clegg, and every other centrist politicians tells us we have to be ‘realistic’ Boris et al will get away with their lies and obfuscation.

Boris et al will got away with their lies and obfuscation while Corbyn was the alternative.

while Corbyn was the alternative.

Yawn. This has been going on for decades. If you seriously think Corbyn was the blockage to change you need to have a major rethink. I promise you nothing will change under Starmer. It’s a game, and he’s playing it very well, but the aim of that game is not to solve the problems that face us.

Rapid change is possible, it’s happened many times, the latest example being covid.

People saw the need for the changes required by Covid (well, most people) but would they have voted for a party that was proposing such changes without a pandemic as the reasons?

Just because you don’t like how it is and think it should change that doesn’t mean you are right and it appears the majority don’t agree with you. You are right about climate change but take a look at the Green party for example, not exactly popular is it – the majority of people don’t care about it and unless you run a green dictatorship you will not bring major change.

I have accepted the fact that the major countries of the world are going to do f all about sorting out climate change and will deal with it when it is too late in 30 years times.