Jeremy Corbyn

It sounds like these claims are just being denied.

Only in tabloid newspaper/the internet bizarro-world where straw-manning is an Olympic sport and nuance is strictly prohibited.

People can say until they’re blue in the face that anti semitism is a real problem in the Labour party and JC was bad at dealing with it, but that doesn’t count unless you also say that no-one has ever cynically exploited it and that media treatment isn’t insanely one-sided.

Corbyn was head of the table he should have put a better structure in place but didn’t so its his fault.

Except this is Trump / Corbyn we’re talking about, so he can never be at fault and never takes responsibility for anything. It’s always someone else’s fault (deep state anyone) whose out to get him.

Corbyn talked about stopping selling arms to Saudi in his first speech as Labour leader.

Awesome, so he’d just sell arms to the leftist despots he refused to condemn and had so much time for such as Chavez and Castro.

He’s just like his central hate figure Thatcher and her support for Pinochet in that regard. The fact that he got called out on this whilst the Tories don’t is that the Tories don’t pretend to care about human rights, whilst Corbyn does.

Awesome, so he’d just sell arms to the leftist despots he refused to condemn and had so much time for such as Chavez and Castro.

These “leftist despots” were democratically elected or led popular revolution. I don’t remember the House of Saud standing for election at any point?

Otherwise, yeah, thanks for your balanced viewpoint

FWIW I have today become a member of the Labour Party, a party that should be my natural political home. A party that I have not voted for since the Iraq war. I hoped that a generational change after that debacle would give me the confidence to vote for them again. Instead there was (as it came across to me) leadership by a group so convinced of the correctness of their own ideology that they could not engage with another who held even slightly differing views. Today I have some confidence that the Labour Party is rebuilding into something decent and electable.

These “leftist despots” were democratically elected or led popular revolution. I don’t remember the House of Saud standing for election at any point?

So was Hitler.

Am I right in assuming that you think massive human rights violations are okay as long as it’s done by despots imposed via democratic elections or *cough*popular*cough* revolution – and as long as they’re good little socialists?

Corbyn was a **** wit and it’s for the best that he’s gone.

A discussion on the polarization of the party

https://unherd.com/2020/10/is-corbyn-really-an-anti-semite/

Corbyns reaction is making this more of an issue than it should ever have been

But starmer now gets to distance himself from corbyn and dinosaurs like Mccluskey get flushed away too

The daft thing is, just as the Tories are screwing the pooch themselves

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 42% (+5)
CON: 37% (-3)
LDEM: 8% (-)
GRN: 5% (-)

via @IpsosMORI, 22 – 28 Oct

— Britain Elects (@BritainElects) October 30, 2020

big and daft’s link pretty much sums up how I feel ^^^

@oakleymuppet

People were saying that the left was obsessed with Israel and what about Saudi. I pointed out that he talked about Saudi in his….etc

Am I right in assuming that you think massive human rights violations are okay as long as it’s done by despots imposed via democratic elections or *cough*popular*cough* revolution – and as long as they’re good little socialists?

Where has anyone said this? Why make stuff up?

Jeremy Corbyn should not be the news this week. He made sure that he is. His choice. His doing.

I would argue it’s the guy that kicked him out of the party for saying something fairly uncontroversial that’s the one who made sure Corbyn was the news.

Which guy is that then? David Evans?

This is simple stuff. Accept the report, apologise, point out that changes had been made since the events of the report to improve things while he was leader, offer support to those who should now make further improvements based on the report’s findings, point out that everyone in the Party should now focus on the mess the current government are making. Oh, and don’t bother bringing up the strawman of a poll that shows that the public have no real idea what they’re talking about… the rarely do when polled.

From big n daft’s link

Yet, with yesterday’s decision by the general secretary, David Evans, to suspend Corbyn, that prospect seems inevitable.

One cannot help but conclude that Evans has boxed in Sir Keir in a way that raises the stakes dramatically. Any decision to reinstate Corbyn would be perceived as weakness and an affront to Jews, while his expulsion risks a veritable bloodletting. The gauntlet has been well and truly thrown down.

The whole thing is worth a read, it’s very balanced.

Where has anyone said this? Why make stuff up?

They haven’t but they do seem to think that Corbyn being anti-israel is because he’s a pro human rights saint as opposed to being an anti-Semite. He doesn’t have a good track record of the former, given his support for left wing lunatics. So that makes him at best either the type of cynical tinpot socialist that supports the enemies of his enemies or an anti-Semite at worst.

He doesn’t have a good track record of the former

The facts if you are interested: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north/votes

Almost always voted for laws to promote equality and human rights

big and daft’s link pretty much sums up how I feel

Absolutely superb piece. Why can’t he lead the party?

Kelvin nails it

This is simple stuff. Accept the report, apologise, point out that changes had been made since the events of the report to improve things while he was leader, offer support to those who should now make further improvements based on the report’s findings, point out that everyone in the Party should now focus on the mess the current government are making.

Yet again, a naive(?) comment by Corbyn has completely undone the party of opposition at a time when they should have the Tories feet in the coals over their handling of the pandemic.

And more importantly, all those waivering voters are thinking “look at them, they are no better than the Tories”

Corbyn is like the bloke in a group of friends who go out for dinner from time to time. Despite the fact that all the other members are fine with splitting the bill evenly…..

Oh no – because he is a man of principle and has to take every possible opportunity to demonstrate how principled he is, they are left sitting there while he goes through the bill penny by penny. It reaches a head one day when he insists that he should pay his half of a shared pudding to the penny. Problem is, the price on the bill is an odd number of pence. The group can now never leave the table.

He needs to shut up. Acknowledge he was ‘played’ (god knows he gifted his enemies the opportunity) and realise that a united and competent opposition is needed with what De Pfeffel, Cumstains (couldn’t resist) and rubber-faced zealot Gove have got in store for the ordinary people in 2021 and beyond.

It’s a bit pointless all this digging up of why Corbyn as an awful narcissist whose voting history was only for virtue signalling. In times of a crisis what bliss to have the victims preoccupied with squabbling amongst themselves over identity politics blaming a principled if naive member of the left. All this was well planned in advance, filmed and broadcast in 2017 and discussed above. Many more MPs (76?) have been identified for a roughing over, this hasn’t nearly ended yet.
By hobbling the potential parliamentary opposition, there will be even less LP resistance to the Tories and any organised anger will take place in the workplace or on the streets and sorted by the police and the press. I sincerely hope people don’t hold their breath waiting for Sir and Dame to ride to their rescue.
If the LP loses members and union funds that’s a result. If some sort of new socialist party is created that will split the vote and become the new Hattonists/Miltant whipping boy then that’s a result. Expulsions could also mean some new opportunities for the right people to get a seat and get claiming. Disaster capitalism is not just about power grabs in the economy, it happens in politics too but parliament is only part of the picture. Like many I vote Labour by default but by the next election I expect everything to be completely unrecognisable.

Yet again, a naive(?) comment by Corbyn has completely undone the party of opposition at a time when they should have the Tories feet in the coals over their handling of the pandemic.

It wasn’t naive

He knew the immediate consequences

He knows that he will be martyred for the left wing cause.

He doesn’t care about the impact, he still believes that a truly left wing labour party is the only route to a pure victory.

He would happily damage the electoral chances of his successor because he feels that his detractors in the party did that to him.

Stand back everyone! ‘The Left’ is flexing its muscles.

Landsman is threatening to leave the party* and Richard Burgon held an ‘online rally’ last night. Whatever that is. It was unclear whether further plans were discussed for the Tony Benn Memorial University.

Meanwhile, Len has clearly been told to STFU and is backpedaling, and all the Corbynite MPs threatening to quit, haven’t. What a surprise!

In other news, Labour are now 5 points clear of the Tories in the polls, compared to the 26 point deficit that was grandads parting gift to us all only 6 months ago.

* Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out, will you?

The sooner all the Corbinyte idiots go the sooner we will have an electable opposition and get Johnson out.

Whatever else you say about Corbyn he was unfit to lead, he couldn’t handle the press which like it or not is a key job requirement. All the whining about right wing bias was irrelevant, you deal with the press you get and win them to your side, moaning about them never achieves this.

Let the idiots go off and form a splinter party, it will be as irrelevant as 1970s politics and leave them Labour party to the grown ups.

I know there are those who feel that anti semitism was used as a stick to bludgeon Corbyn to death. They might also rightly point out that AS exists across the political spectrum and society in general.

The issue of AS has been sublimated in the UK, we could always point to how it was much more of a problem in Europe, though we should remember that the least racist is still racist. And then there’s Hitler, we defeated Hitler so therefore we saved the Jews type of thing.

Anti semitism wasn’t seen as much of an issue in the UK, it was there if you looked for it, graveyards were a good clue, if you cycled past a graveyard (as I did in North Manchester) and the headstones were either toppled or smashed to pieces you knew it was a Jewish graveyard from the first glance, you didn’t have to read the inscriptions.

A problem undiscussed will find an outlet sooner or later, an issue or figure around which to coalesce. The issue of anti semitism needed a poster boy and Corbyn stepped up to fill the role. Gullible, yes but also complicit given his history.

As much as Zionism is a product of anti semitism, anti semitism can also be a by product of anti Zionism. The left has a problem with de coupling the two things, or is at least prepared to turn a blind eye to some of the nastier undercurrents in order to flag their pro Palestine credentials.

I support the idea of a Palestinian homeland, I just feel that the posturing on the left with regards the issue does more harm than good, only succeeding in hardening perspectives. Making Europe, the UK or more specifically the Labour party a more hostile place for Jews is hardly going to bring about a solution to the Israel /Palestine question, it more accurately points to why Jewish people felt the need for a safe homeland in the first place.

leave them Labour party to the grown ups.

And by definition nothing will change. At the end of the next labour govt we’ll still have an unsustainable economy which consumes more than the earth can provide. Carbon emissions will still be rising, the poor will still be poor, the rich will be as rich as they are now, and the rest of us will still be slogging away at pointless jobs with ever decreasing real wages and longer hours to make up the shortfall, while we watch our kids get increasingly stressed and depressed about their futures. It’s ok though, because proper grownups who understand what they’re not allowed to do are in charge. My 16 year old daughter has a better understanding of how the world works than these so-called grown ups.

In other news, Labour are now 5 points clear of the Tories in the polls, compared to the 26 point deficit that was grandads parting gift to us all only 6 months ago.

I’m sure that’s totally down to Corbyn’s departure, and nothing to do with the Tories literally voting not to feed hingry kids.

pondo,

Could it not be both?

As much as Zionism is a product of anti semitism, anti semitism can also be a by product of anti Zionism.

How very insightful.

I support the idea of a Palestinian homeland, I just feel that the posturing on the left with regards the issue does more harm than good

Posturing? FFS. The people on the left and others are the only outlet in the western world for information about the crimes and atrocities committed by the Israeli state. Politicians, the media, and as a result the population at large are wilfully ignorant about it. They’ve covered their eyes and put their fingers in their ears and are shouting ‘la la la I can’t hear you’. So yeah, they should carry on ‘posturing’, because what goes on in the West Bank and Gaza is nothing more than organised state terror and murder, and people need to know about it, whether they like it or not.

I’m sure that’s totally down to Corbyn’s departure, and nothing to do with the Tories literally voting not to feed hingry kids.

Since Corbyn’s departure (after delivering the worst labour election result in 85 years, lest we forget), the polls have shifted over 30 points in favour of the labour party

A man in possession of even a modicum of humility or intelligence might think on that stat when considering their present conduct and if they’re in any position to be gobbing off

So yeah, they should carry on ‘posturing’, because what goes on in the West Bank and Gaza is nothing more than organised state terror and murder, and people need to know about it, whether they like it or not.

And while the present Israeli regime enjoys the full support of the American government, what Tower Hamlets friends of Palestine think isn’t going to make a right lot of difference. And hounding Jewish MPs out of the Labour Party most certainly isn’t

It’s ok though, because proper grownups who understand what they’re not allowed to do are in charge.

What dazh said. Starmer’s platform of ‘we are a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories’ is just going to lead us nowhere. JC wasn’t the right man but radical solutions are needed, and soon, or we are all totally ****.

@binners during that period we have also had a deadly pandemic AND the Brexit they were elected to sort out handled spectacularly badly – the fact that Labour are now creeping marginally ahead is really not something to be crowing about.

hounding Jewish MPs out of the Labour Party most certainly isn’t

Which precisely no one is advocating. Insightful.

It seems age, as a form of social stratification, 6th formers and grown-ups, have to be employed when you have no arguments or evidence. Most old people have had even more than the rest of us of being confused and dazed by the media, the workplace, events and they don’t read much. These people must seek political advice and analysis from their elderly rellies. Vote grown up, vote Trump.

I see no one has attempted to explain why it’s ok to have a third of the shadow cabinet in an avowedly pro-Israeli lobby group. Is this another grown-up thing?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/08/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-plotted-against-mps-set-up-political-groups-labour

More grown up stuff ^^^^

Starmer’s platform of ‘we are a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories’ is just going to lead us nowhere. JC wasn’t the right man but radical solutions are needed, and soon, or we are all totally ****

That is about where I am. I think it we all want a better party in power. Some are focused on the “better party” bit. others on the “in power” bit.

the fact that Labour are now creeping marginally ahead is really not something to be crowing about.

Who’s crowing?

I’m merely pointing out that under the stewardship of Magic Grandad, we lost 2 elections, one of which by an absolutely thumping majority. As it stands at the moment, if there were an election tomorrow we’d very probably have a labour government.

Maybe certain individuals should take a moment to reflect on that before embarking on their latest ego trip?

One good poll result in the midst of a crisis and suddenly we are guaranteed a Labour government. Yay.

I’ve no doubt Corbyn harmed electoral results with some people but the main issue AFAICS was Brexit. What would Starmer’s magical solution have been that got red wall voters, swing voters, and the ‘metropolitan liberal elite’ you apparently hate so much on board?

‘Get Brexit done, but not as badly’? Remind me who was in charge of Labour’s Brexit policy at the last election?

BTW ‘metropolitan liberal elite’ is considered a coded AS dog-whistle by some people. Funny eh

but the main issue AFAICS was Brexit.

Humour me for a moment and remind me where our hero stood on this

Allow me to jog your memory

Dazh,

I agree that the injustices inflicted on the Palestinians need to be pointed out and the fact that they need to be addressed is obvious.

I used the word posturing deliberately. I work in the Arts and music sectors, ask anyone and support for the Palestinian cause is near ubiquitous, as is the ignorance with regards the history of the Middle East. Showing solidarity with the cause whilst providing no solutions and having no skin in the game can easily be seen as virtue signalling and, as I said before, do more harm than good, both for the cause in whose name they are fighting and in relation to feeding into anti semitism in general.

Humour me for a moment and remind me where our hero stood on this

If he’d been anti Brexit you’d have been whining on about how he’d ignored labour voters ‘in the real world’ who wanted Brexit.

Again, what should he have done? Easy to criticise but not so easy to actually say anything useful/constructive is it.

What was Keir Starmer doing at the time? I found JCs leadership over Brexit hopeless but actually his ambivalent position reflected both sides of the division in the labour party. It’s funny how he’s apparently both a Marxist despot and too indecisive.

Starmer’s platform of ‘we are a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories’ is just going to lead us nowhere.

Well that’s tough comrade as the country isn’t ready for the glorious revolution, maybe another 10 years of Johnson might do it.

Even if a radical Labour party got elected (history shows that won’t happen) things will get a lot worse during the great leap forward before we get to utopia. Our election system runs every 5 years, complete overhaul of of system will take a lot longer than that.

Believe it or not the country would like a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories. What we don’t want is yet more internal party politics an infighting for the sake of scoring policy points.

If he’d been anti Brexit you’d have been whining on about how he’d ignored labour voters ‘in the real world’ who wanted Brexit.

Again, what should he have done?

What he should have done is put aside his 1970’s Lexiteer personal prejudices and campaign for remain, to reflect the overwhelming view of the Labour membership

Instead, he took a 2 month sabbatical on his allotment, then reappeared on the morning of the result to go full Farage

Ok so he should have just totally ignored the approx one third of labour voters who voted leave, more concentrated in traditional labour heartlands in the north, and go with the ‘metropolitan liberal elite’
you claim to despise, who all wanted remain. Tell the racist northerners that they were wrong.

You really are the authentic voice of northern working class labour voters aren’t you binners.

I desperately wanted him to campaign for Remain too but I can also see that it wasn’t as simple as you are making out,and that my opinion isn’t the only one that matters.