Jeremy Corbyn

Being absolutely frank, Corbyn’s problem was that either he was too fond of his on ideology

Corbyn’s problem was that his near miss in 2017 terrified the tory and labour establishment so much that they deployed the issue of anti-semitism to defeat him. They could have done so in 2015 but they didn’t because they thought they could defeat him easily without resorting to such low tactics. I’d expect that from the tories, but the labour right have basically thrown the party, and the people who depend upon it, under the bus in order to prevent a Corbyn government. They were successful, but now the party is paying for it and its very survival is under threat as a result.

They were successful, but now the party is paying for it and its very survival is under threat as a result.

It’s survival isn’t in doubt, they’ll be arguing about AS for the next 20 years or until JC pops his clogs.

Their electability on the other hand, JC buried that very deeply somewhere……

The usual moans of those interested in Politics in the 90s was that you couldn’t really pick between the two parties who’d moved closer to the centre as it represented where the UK was at the time

No

they moved to target swing voters not “the centre”. Both sides took their traditional voters for granted.

The tories have been going further and further right since Thatchers time.

The only reason it isnt so obvious was for most of it Labour were chasing them rightwards and it then got accepted that even centre left positions were considered hard left whereas positions which Thatcher thought were too hard right were pushed through as centrist.
Our political spectrum is skewed to an extent which is only beaten by the US. What are seen as moderate left policies in Europe are portrayed as hard left.

Says “No” then agrees with me,

Then makes a statement that’s that’s a contraction of the previous sentence.

Then, makes a statement that’s another contraction of that one, which also untrue. Major, Cameron and May all more left that Thatcher. You might argue that Hague, Smith and Howard were to the right, but they lost. The Tories biggest leap to the right was when they lost the EU referendum they called and handed over power to the Loonies (eventually).

Corbyn’s problem was that his near miss in 2017 terrified the tory and labour establishment so much that they deployed the issue of anti-semitism to defeat him. They could have done so in 2015 but they didn’t because they thought they could defeat him easily without resorting to such low tactics

oh my god come on! The anti semitism in the labour party wasn’t created as some ploy to get rid of Corbyn this is a real issue. This just sounds like you’re totally pushing aside people that have been racially discriminated and passing it off as some conspiracy theory.

Says “No” then agrees with me,

Ermm no I didnt so try again. All of those carried on with Thatchers policies but took them even further. A classic example being the post office which she saw as a step to far.
They did throw some fluff around it on the social side of things (hence “Thatcherism with a human face”) but on the economic side of things they were to her right.

Corbyn’s problem was that his near miss in 2017 terrified the tory and labour establishment so much that they deployed the issue of anti-semitism to defeat him.

Wow, do you don’t believe that ANY of the issues raised by the report reflect badly on the labour leadership at the time? the smearing, the lack of appropriate investigation, the interference at a senior level, the undermining of valid complaints?

To quote SKS… frankly, you are part of the problem.

the interference at a senior level,

Out of curiosity have you looked at the examples of these? I assume you mean political interventions which were counted as wrong whichever way they went.

The anti semitism in the labour party

It was there yes, as it was in other parties and wider society. it’s always been there, the point is that Corbyn’s enemies found a way to weaponise it against him without it impacting everyone else.

This just sounds like you’re totally pushing aside people that have been racially discriminated and passing it off as some conspiracy theory.

There we go again with the racism accusation. It’s done a disservice to those people in actual fact because once it was unleashed it stoked the flames and amplified the problem. It’s not hard to mobilise the mob, especially on such a historically inflammatory subject. The use of AS as a stick to beat Corbyn made the problem much worse than it was.

Did anyone worry or obsess about anti-semitism before 2017? Before then no one even talked about it. Not in the labour party, not in society at large, because on the whole it wasn’t a big issue, and there were other forms of racism which were more prescient, like the long running race/culture war between muslims and the white population which resulted in terrorist atrocities.

If I was going to be conspiratorial about I’d say the reason they didn’t deploy it in 2015 was because they knew that once the genie was out of the bottle they wouldn’t be able to put it back. I doubt that’s the case though, and I suspect they stumbled upon it accidentally in the wake of the 2017 election as they were forced to consider other options beyond ‘Corbyn is an IRA sympathiser’.

I love how everyone is calling for Corbyn to shut up and stop making life difficult for the fairly elected leadership.

The irony is hilarious.

To quote SKS… frankly, you are part of the problem.

Part of the problem because I think AS was used as a political tool to damage Corbyn? Do you deny that Corbyn’s opponents used it as a political tool against him?

Funny that you can come out with McCarthyite rubbish like this and then say I’m being a conspiracist. Anyway, I’m stopping now because it’ll ultimately end up in me overtly being accused of anti-semitism, at which point I’d really lose my temper.

Instead of jumping to accuse people of racism or anti-semitism, why not ask questions of those who thought it a good idea to use it, and all the people who suffer because of it, to win a political game?

Out of curiosity have you looked at the examples of these? I assume you mean political interventions which were counted as wrong whichever way they went.

I’m referring to this

Political interference

The EHRC found evidence of political interference in the complaints process, with 23 instances of inappropriate involvement by the Leader of the Opposition’s Office (LOTO) and others in the 70 files looked at. This included LOTO staff influencing decisions on complaints, especially decisions on suspensions or to investigate a claim. Some decisions were made because of likely press interest rather than any formal criteria.

The Labour Party adopted a practice of political interference in certain complaints and the evidence indicates that it occurred more regularly in antisemitism cases. The EHRC has found this to be indirectly discriminatory and unlawful. The practice puts the person making a complaint of antisemitism at a disadvantage as they could face different and detrimental treatment and a risk that their complaint would not be handled fairly.

A transparent and independent antisemitism complaints process, where all cases of alleged discrimination, harassment or victimisation are investigated promptly, rigorously and without interference is an essential part of the reforms needed to rebuild trust.

Complaints processes and training

The Labour Party’s response to antisemitism complaints has been inconsistent and lacking in transparency in its process and decision-making. The report also identifies issues with record-keeping, lengthy delays and communication with complainants.

Those making complaints were poorly served by the Party, and those responding to complaints were often treated unfairly. For example, the complaints inbox was largely left unmonitored for a number of years and no action taken on the majority of complaints forwarded to it. Sixty-two of the 70 files reviewed had records missing, which required the EHRC to seek further information.

So it’s quite clear that there was senior interference in a significant number of complaints, and reason to to believe that complaints that had been ignored were also likely to be treated inconsistently if they were eventually reviewed.

If you are trying to suggest a specific example to argue that they were being overly diligent and proactive in their dealings with complaints of anti Semitism, then I don’t buy it.

If you are trying to suggest a specific example to argue that they were being overly diligent and proactive in their dealings with complaints of anti Semitism, then I don’t buy it.

I was simply checking if you had read it. To make it clear I am not suggesting I am stating.
There are some which reflect badly on Corbyn and co (namely the murals one) but if you actually read the examples rather than the headline you will see that several were ones where his office interfered to push for suspension/harder action.

I suspect they stumbled upon it accidentally in the wake of the 2017 election as they were forced to consider other options beyond ‘Corbyn is an IRA sympathiser’.

And this to me answers the question as to why I think you are part of the problem. You, and a fair few others, seem unable to accept that the issue might, just might, be that people quite rightly complained that they were subject to anti Semitic behaviour whilst members of the labour party, or whilst engaging with members of the labour party. They were then were treated so badly and ineffectually that it resulted in the party itself breaching the equality act.

So what if it was weaponised by the tories, the problem is that it was allowed to happen in the first place. Even if the tories fired the gun, the labour leadership gave them the ammunition.

It’s survival isn’t in doubt

If even fraction of the members who joined in 2015-17 leave, and the likes of Unite remove funding then that’s millions per year they’ll lose. Given they were worried about the party’s finances when paying out damages to the AS whistleblowers I doubt they can afford to lose that.

Corbyn’s problem was that his near miss in 2017 terrified the tory and labour establishment so much that they deployed the issue of anti-semitism to defeat him.

And so another “good socialist” speaks

It seems very odd that a party that was home to so many successful Jewish politicians suddenly became a toxic place to be and led to many giving up on their careers in one way or another

Part of the problem because I think AS was used as a political tool to damage Corbyn? Do you deny that Corbyn’s opponents used it as a political tool against him?

What were they supposed to do?, Be “good socialists” and keep quiet for the cause of a left wing opportunity to be in power?

There we go again with the racism accusation. It’s done a disservice to those people in actual fact because once it was unleashed it stoked the flames and amplified the problem. It’s not hard to mobilise the mob, especially on such a historically inflammatory subject. The use of AS as a stick to beat Corbyn made the problem much worse than it was.

You know what, what ever gets you through the day. Its hard to admit the party you support (myself included) have had a racist undertone for so long its not the ideals or behaviour i align with. Difference seems to be I can admit its a problem and that problem wasn’t solved by Corbyn you seem unable to for what ever reason.

For the record I never accused you of being racist I simply said it sounds like you fail to acknowledge it and are passing the blame to the Tories / ring wing part of politics. Fact is there are racists in the Labour party and those people need to go, if people want to deny it they are simply supporting those people too so they can also go… AND that includes Corbyn.

If this was JRM, Raab or any of the other Tories we would be calling for resignations so we have to expect the same when our own party fall short

I was simply checking if you had read it. To make it clear I am not suggesting I am stating.
There are some which reflect badly on Corbyn and co (namely the murals one) but if you actually read the examples rather than the headline you will see that several were ones where his office interfered to push for suspension/harder action.

I don’t believe that a lot of the complaints are actually public, but certainly some of Corbyn’s historical actions have been particular tone deaf. Its also clear that despite repeated public assurances that he would take a grip on anti-Semitism within the party, he was pretty ineffectual in his efforts.

Is he antisemitic? probably not. Did he sail pretty close to the wind? Yes. Did he preside over a party that increasingly became a hostile place for Jews? Yes, absolutely.

And all he did yesterday was make it worse.

the point is that Corbyn’s enemies found a way to weaponise it against him without it

The average voters couldn’t care less about anti-semitism in the Labour party and it would have had a very, very minor part in his loss.
Corbyn wasn’t liked/trusted for all sorts of reasons (rightly or wrongly) plus they liked Brexit, a lot.

I don’t believe that a lot of the complaints are actually public

Lets stick to your claim of political interference. So have you bothered to read the section yet and looked at the examples they have provided?

Lets stick to your claim of political interference. So have you bothered to read the section yet and looked at the examples they have provided?

Yes, I have ‘bothered’. And its not my claim. Its the legal finding of the EHR commission.

If even fraction of the members who joined in 2015-17 leave, and the likes of Unite remove funding then that’s millions per year they’ll lose. Given they were worried about the party’s finances when paying out damages to the AS whistleblowers I doubt they can afford to lose that.

Union funding would be a big deal, but why would they withdraw that? Who would they give it to instead?

They might make a modest cut as a way of showing displeasure if Labour start to look electable, but other than that I can’t see a big change coming.

Len McCluskey is always threatening to withdraw funding, I think he last did it when the labour party paid compensation to whistleblowers in the, hang on, anti-Semitism scandal!

Apropos of nothing, He also once told Peter Mandelson to go count his gold.

Yes, I have ‘bothered’. And its not my claim.

Do you still stand by your declaration “being overly diligent and proactive in their dealings with complaints of anti Semitism, then I don’t buy it.” bearing in mind that how many of the examples listed by the ECHR were his office forcing harder action.

Do you still stand by your declaration “being overly diligent and proactive in their dealings with complaints of anti Semitism, then I don’t buy it.” bearing in mind that how many of the examples listed by the ECHR were his office forcing harder action.

Yes I do. because I’m of the opinion that interference didn’t take place to fairly advance complainants, it was done for political purposes (hence the charge being proven). There was no need for the LOTO to be involved in the process, there was no need for Thomas Gardiner to be installed there when he did, and there is evidence that he and others subverted the process to the potential detriment of complainants or to lessen the punishment for those found in breach.

Its also worth reminding that the document references a sample of the total complaints.

Edit to add: I don’t want to give the mistaken impression that I think interference is ok, even if the outcome for the complainant is improved.

because I’m of the opinion that interference didn’t take place to fairly advance complainants, it was done for political purposes

Which would still be “overly diligent and proactive” even if the reasons for doing so were suspect.

and there is evidence that he and others subverted the process to the potential detriment of complainants or to lessen the punishment for those found in breach.

There is also evidence that they did so to increase the punishment.

Its also worth reminding that the document references a sample of the total complaints.

Are you claiming that the choice by the ECHR was flawed?

Which would still be “overly diligent and proactive” even if the reasons for doing so were suspect.

No it doesn’t, it could have been slapdash and tardy for all we know. If you want to continue to believe that they were being diligent and proactive then go on ahead.

There is also evidence that they did so to increase the punishment.

And evidence they did the contrary. seems like political interference doesn’t get anyone a fair hearing, does it?

Are you claiming that the choice by the ECHR was flawed?

what do you think?

You, and a fair few others, seem unable to accept that the issue might, just might, be that people quite rightly complained that they were subject to anti Semitic behaviour whilst members of the labour party,

If you can find a single instance of me saying those complaints were unfounded or should be ignored then go for it. I promise you won’t find any. I’m not disputing the existence of AS in labour, or anywhere else for that matter. I’m questioning the motivations of those who weaponised it to defeat Corbyn, and in the process made the issue a whole lot worse. Those people weren’t interested in eliminating AS from labour, they wanted to pour fuel on it, and that’s exactly what happened once they turned it into a partisan factional issue.

Yet again, why is it being presented as a binary choice between ‘it’s all just a conspiracy against Corbyn’ and ‘AS in the Labour party is all his fault and he’s awful’. Are we really only capable of tabloid newspaper level debate?

From an outside view, it seems labour is a split party, you’ve got your further left corbyns and your more centrist/establishment Starmers for a start.

All it takes is for the tories to toss a hand grenade over the fence, and they can sit back and watch the in-fighting, which seems to be labours biggest issue. They Can’t present a united party front.

Starmer seems to be addressing that but also alienating the corbyn types. Parhaps the labour party needs to decide what it is, and then those members who don’t like it, can form a new party.

Corbyn’s problem was that his near miss in 2017 terrified the tory and labour establishment so much that they deployed the issue of anti-semitism to defeat him

Mate, much as I love you, you really need to lay off the mushrooms during the day 😃

Nobody has ever been terrified of Jeremy Corbyn. Least of all the Tory party. They gave thanks to lord the day the sixth formers elected the clown and they’ve not stopped laughing since.

Well… until yesterday, anyway

Yet again, why is it being presented as a binary choice between ‘it’s all just a conspiracy against Corbyn’ and ‘AS in the Labour party is all his fault and he’s awful’. Are we really only capable of tabloid newspaper level debate?

It clearly can’t be all his fault, AS existed before and will exist after Corbyn. The sad reality is that some people believe the tropes or can’t navigate the issue due to their concerns about the Palestinian people. AS exists on the left and the right and the centre of British politics because it involves people, and people sometimes have nasty opinions in amongst their passion to help others.

Nor is it a conspiracy, AS became more open when the membership ballooned as very politicised people to the left of labour as it was, joined the party to get Corbyn and his fellow travelers in the driving seat of labour. There is a clear change in personality of the party which then drove out previously successful labour Jewish politicians.

The party machine struggled when it ballooned, he failed to lead, he failed to believe his supporters could include AS members. He had cognitive dissonance on the whole issue, he couldn’t see the problem and still doesn’t nor do his fellow travelers

I reckon. 1. The Israeli Govt does some shit awful things, 2. Many critics of Israel also dislike Jews  3. Corbyn’s leadership failed.  4. The left clearly has an anti Semitic problem, some of those folk are in the Labour party. 5. Some folk used an actual problem to attack Corbyn. It worked, because Corbyn (it turns out) wasn’t a very good political operator. 6 some people are still angry about it.

To my mind, all Corbyn had to do was STFU, and not play the victim, That’s literally all he had to do, and he even had an agreement with the current leadership to do that. In the context of an investigation into the failure of a leadership organisation to deal with an internal problem, this should’ve been obvious to the most clueless of first term MPs. That Corbyn couldn’t or didn’t, speaks volumes about the man (for clarity, and not in a good way)

you really need to lay off the mushrooms during the day

Fear not, this is all just mental exercise and distractions from work. Not that we ever would, as it’s a complete waste of time, but if we were to discuss in real life it would be somewhat more nuanced, sensible and a whole lot more philosophical 😉

The left has a problem with anti semitism implies it is only the left or mainly the left.

In other worrying incidents over recent months, the Tory MP for Bolton West last week apologised for sharing a poem on social media which included references to Rothschild conspiracy theories.

And last month a councillor, who also stood as a parliamentary candidate in December, was readmitted to the party after expressing regret over posts he made questioning aspects of the Holocaust.

In April, the Tories suspended an activist in Scotland who had promoted antisemitic posts suggesting “Jews are behind bestiality brothels

In 2015, the Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAAS) found that more than three in ten Tory voters believe that “Jews chase money more than other British people.” Twenty percent believe that “Jews think they are better than other people.” One in ten think that in business, “Jews are not as honest as most people” and would be unhappy “if a family member married a Jew.” Seventeen percent think that Jews have too much “power” in the media. Twenty-two percent think that Jews are more loyal to Israel than Britain and 12 percent think that “Jews talk about the Holocaust too much in order to get sympathy.”

In 2017, these figures were re-confirmed when CAAS’s Antisemitism Barometer found that 40 percent of Tory voters “endorsed” at least one anti-Semitic statement

Then there’s all the George Soros conspiracy stuff people like Farage have pushed on Alex Jones show etc

And that’s without even getting started on the Islamophobia

But yeah it’s just the left that has the problem.

If you can find a single instance of me saying those complaints were unfounded or should be ignored then go for it. I promise you won’t find any. I’m not disputing the existence of AS in labour, or anywhere else for that matter.

Perhaps not but what it sounds like is you are trying to make excuses for a group of people who have behaved appallingly by claiming there was some tory / labour ploy in the background seeding these anti semitic views and comments to people like its some big game to get rid of Corbyn. And its that which basically makes you sound like your denying it happened. I just don’t understand when he was the leader of the party you can’t see that its his fault. Corbyn simply didn’t do enough.

No one has claimed anyone was ‘seeding anti-semitism’, but there was a concerted effort by right wing press, right wing of labour party and the Tory party to ‘get’ Corbyn by making out anti semitism was somehow exclusively a trait of his supporters. He fell right into the trap because he’s crap at politics.

Corbyn simply didn’t do enough.

Doesn’t Jeremy Corbyn even concede this? Pretty sure he does.

Are people even reading his actual statement or just making it up for themselves?

https://m.facebook.com/JeremyCorbynMP/posts/10158940021628872

Joepud you have to read the report.

But yeah it’s just the left that has the problem.

I don’t think anyone is saying that

When it comes to the Tory’s, from their leader down, I expect to attach a lot of ‘ists’ to them. Racist, sexist, everythingist…

But I expect a far higher standard from a party that I’m a member of. Especially from a man who’s supporters are perpetually wanging on about being a ‘man of honour and integrity’

Do I think Jezza is personally antisemetic? No

But I always got the impression that he was, at best, indifferent to the issue, and I suspect that that was because a lot of those responsible for it were idealogical fellow travellers from his particular wing of the party, and those who were hounded out of the party, he was quite happy to see the back of

But yeah it’s just the left that has the problem.

No it’s not, the centre and right has a problem.

They just manage not to drive their successful Jewish elected members out of the party. Don’t remember this happening in the libdems or conservatives.

No one has claimed anyone was ‘seeding anti-semitism’,

To quote another person on this forum “Corbyn’s problem was that his near miss in 2017 terrified the tory and labour establishment so much that they deployed the issue of anti-semitism to defeat him.” it would be nice to get clarity on the wording of “deployed” but it normally means do something, take action and so on so suggests someone was doing something to “deploy” anti semitism within the Labour party.

There was a concerted effort by right wing press, right wing of labour party and the Tory party to ‘get’ Corbyn by making out anti semitism was somehow exclusively a trait of his supporters.

It’s a hysterical witchhunt stirred up very successfully by people who have benefitted politically from it. It’s got nothing to do with racism, anti-semitism or anything else. It’s politics, plain and simple

Can you not even for a second reflect on how comments actually sounds. How do you think people who have been victims of this would feel? It sounds like these claims are just being denied. Corbyn was head of the table he should have put a better structure in place but didn’t so its his fault.