Jeremy Corbyn

Personally I see little difference between Corbyn and Stalin’s ideas of Socialist democracy.

Seriously .. lol. You’ll have to take us through the similarities ..?

Personally I see little difference between Corbyn and Stalin’s ideas of Socialist democracy.

Is this jamba’s update on Godwin’s Law ?

Ninfan – no – they were never socialist. Now come on you must have read a bit about it. A totalitarian state cannot be socialist – the two are fundamentally different. You can keep a cat in a kennel and call it rover but it will never be a dog 🙂

Nicaragua under the sandinistas is about the best attempt at a socialist state – of course under constant military and economic attack from the US but even so in a decade took literacy rates from (IIRC) low teens to nearly 90% Halved child mortality etc etc. There is no doubt at all that average standard of living rose significantly and that is despite the US continual destabilisation and military attacks.

A totalitarian state cannot be socialist – the two are fundamentally different.

The Soviets and the Chinese certainly think you can be (Russia is Corbyn’s idol state wise and beyond rapproach). Vietnamese too (btw used to do quite a bit of business in Vietnam, senior execs at bank had been ex military, highly decorated against the US … clearly they where best qualified for the roles. Socialist principals at work eh ? Jobs for the boys more like)

(Russia is Corbyn’s idol state wise and beyond rapproach).

It is strange that he and Trump have that in common….

So there are all of the capitalist models that don’t work and all of the non-capitalist models that don’t work.

The difference is the capitalist models are doing what they are intended to do whereas the non-capitalist models have failed for all sorts of reasons.

Better to try a fairer, non-capitalist, non consumerist model and get it to work that continue with models that bring about massive inequality as a key part of their approach.

Of course, people would need to realise it would be good for them and understand why – looking at 2016 people are not very good at that….

Of course, people would need to realise it would be good for them and understand why

And what if they disagree?

Reeducation camps? A trip to the Gulag?

History tells us that a socialist state can only be sustained through subjugation of the masses. TJ is simply wrong bout the Soviet Union being totalitarian instead of socialist, it was totalitarian because it was socialist, as i) socialism in one country is impossible (Marx was clear that in order for socialism to thrive it required worldwide replication), and ii) constant revolution in the Trotskyist model is unsustainable.

Russia is Corbyn’s idol state wise and beyond rapproach

You **** wot?

Citation please!

And what if they disagree?

More of what we have now, I suppose – people voting for random protest candidates/causes, probably becoming ever more bizarre til we end up electing the Monster Raving Lunatic Party.

Better to try a fairer, non-capitalist, non consumerist model and get it to work that continue with models that bring about massive inequality as a key part of their approach.

The Labour party is a front for the Fabian Socialists – the central dogma is based on deception – Even their emblem is a wolf in sheeps clothing – Only useful idiots Shills or Trillionaires support their policy proposals. I want the Labour Party to die not because I support the Conservatives – they are repugnant in equal measure – we need new political parties – the left/right paradigm over ..

Jobs for the boys

Lucky that sort of thing never happens here then

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38466990

Without wanting to get into this deep philosophical argument, anyone who thinks you can measure the success/failure of socialism with any single nation state is an idiot. A more interesting measure is to look at what happens in places where socialist principles have been implemented. The postwar consensus in Western Europe is arguably the best example of socialist principles being successful.

socialist principles

Which would they be then?

Socialism is defined by social ownership of the means of production

All the other stuff that it claims predates its creation

(Education for the masses, social support and free to access healthcare were pioneered by the church long before socialism ‘claimed’ them – just look at the history of the word ‘dole’ and why we use it, it goes back nearly a thousand years)

For Molgrips

Which would they be then?

The deliberate and systematic redistribution of wealth from the few to the many. There’s a huge difference between that and the ad-hoc charity you’re talking about.

The deliberate and systematic redistribution of wealth from the few to the many. There’s a huge difference between that and the ad-hoc charity you’re talking about.

Tithes were not deliberate and systematic?

Cranberry – give me a break. Actual evidence please not political insinuation.

You **** wot?

Citation please!

Look at Corbyn and Labour’s responce to Syria/Allepo – criticism directed at US, silent on Russia. Something numerous commentators have challenged them on.

Anti-Capitalist and thus anti-US sentiment is at the core of Corbyn’s Labour Party. Russia is their soul mate and kindred spirit. Cuba under Castro too.

So dazh, sounds like you are describing our progressive tax system.

Anti-Capitalist and thus anti-US sentiment is at the core of Corbyn’s Labour Party. Russia is their soul mate and kindred spirit.

So, political insinuation then, not actual information. Or bollocks as it’s also known. This kind of talk is what is so very wrong with the world.

Tithes were not deliberate and systematic?

🙂

Molgrips did you read the first paragragph, have you followed McDonnells various outbursts or Momentums agenda or Stop the War which is simply one gigantic anti-American coalition including some very very unsavoury people and groups.

The Toires are silent on all this currently as it’s electoral gold dust.

So, political insinuation then, not actual information. Or bollocks as it’s also known. This kind of talk is what is so very wrong with the world.

you’ll never find a smoking gun where you could quote Corbyn as saying “Russia is fantastic I wish the whole world could be just like them”. But the cumulative effect of his whole career suggests he has a soft spot for the place.
Thee BBC link is just a tiny part of that.

Yes, I have Jam, but not being a raging fact-blind Tory I realised that like I said, insinuation is damaging to political debate.

I strongly doubt a lifelong pacifist is going to be supporting a Putin led state. And also, they aren’t communist any more, did you know that?

And also, they aren’t communist any more, did you know that?

Russia no, Corbyn I am not so sure 😉

McDonnell said he was a Marxist, he’s the Shadow Chancellor FFS. Corbyn is totally blind when it comes to Russia just like his idiotic statement on Castro. Capitalism and America is the great Satan as far as Corbyn’s Labour Party is concerned.

Jamba is now as beyond parody as the chewbot. It’s funny but it’s sort of serious as this sort of debate by invention has now largely replaced real discussion, with judges labelled “enemies of the people” and whatnot. It can’t be beneficial for our democracy.

McDonnell said he was a Marxist, he’s the Shadow Chancellor FFS.

Do you really not understand the difference between supporting Marxism and supporting the Soviet state? Which does not even exist any more anyway!

You know, people like you who deal in insinuation and suggestion often can’t understand that some people do simply talk straight. So when Corbyn said that perhaps we should look at the USA’s actions, maybe that’s what he actually meant, rather than “I love Russia”.

Blah blah blah 😉

See you al in 2020 it’s going to be carnage.

Corbyn is an anti-Capitalist and wants to take people’s money and give it to others. Labour are going to be absolutely crucified. He of course has his £1.6m pension, lucky him. 30 years in finance and I have no chance to accumulate such a pension due to penal tax rates on pension pots. Pot vs Kettle.

Jamba is now as beyond parody as the chewbot. It’s funny but it’s sort of serious as this sort of debate by invention has now largely replaced real discussion, with judges labelled “enemies of the people” and whatnot. It can’t be beneficial for our democracy.

Of course in the Marxist state the free press is at the heart of the rights of the individual………

The odd thing about newspapers is that they are a great way of looking at the country as they are low cost and widely distributed.

What’s the circulation of the Morning Star?

Of course in the Marxist state the free press is at the heart of the rights of the individual………

Feel free to back up this claim with a reference to the relevant passage in Marx’s writing.

Anti-Capitalist and thus anti-US sentiment is at the core of Corbyn’s Labour Party. Russia is their soul mate and kindred spirit. Cuba under Castro too

I see you have still not run out of the XMas booze and, yet again, you did not get a big book of facts for xmas

McDonnell said he was a Marxist, he’s the Shadow Chancellor

Corbyn is an anti-Capitalist and wants to take people’s money and give it to others.

Both positives to me. Are you saying it is a problem, and to who – the fortunate rich people who have been lucky?

Feel free to back up this claim with a reference to the relevant passage in Marx’s writing.

Why? I talked of the Marxist state, I’m sure you have a long list of them and the free press enjoyed there

Why? I talked of the Marxist state, I’m sure you have a long list of them and the free press enjoyed there

Indeed – so please tell us which aspect of Marx’s philosophy has anything to do with your claims about free press. Or are you just spouting ignorant blx?

USA vs Cuba[/url]

The USA has done more bad in the world than Russia. Corbyn is right to treat Russia and the USA the same.

sounds like you are describing our progressive tax system.

Indeed. This is my point. Saying that socialism is a failure whilst capitalism is a success is silly. There are many aspects of our ‘capitalist’ system which are straight out of the ‘socialist’ rule book. Some people like ninfan would rather we do away with things like the welfare state and go back to charity based welfare, but the fact that this is still a fringe opinion would suggest that ‘socialism’ is more successful than people think.

Would I now? You learn something every day don’t you!

Read what I said, the ‘welfare state’ isn’t a socialist concept, it predates socialism by centuries.

Well chaps you have a few years yet to practice your doorstep winning arguments about the differences between Marxism/Trotskyism/Communism/Corbynism. That and how he’s not a terrorist sympathiser, how submarines with no missiles are a good idea and how Momentumites are not going to steal the Middle Class’s savings. There’s quite a long and growing list but there is time, 3.5yrs to be precise. Currently he’s making new problems faster than Labour can create solutions but that has to stop eventually surely ?

I did have the biggest laugh earlier about the coverage of Corbyn’s upcoming 2017 “rebranding” as the anti-establishment candidate. The man of great principals and a “new kind of politics” is getting a rebrand. How very Saatchi and Saatchi. Brilliant. 🙂

@dazh what we have in the UK is modern socialism. This is what it looks like. Welfare state, health provision, progressive tax system etc.