Jeremy Corbyn

The leadership voting debacle was Ed’s gift, no ?

Indeed. Thing is Ed didn’t turn out to be the union puppet Len McCluskey et al thought he would be and like many labour leaders before him, only paid lip service to them in favour of electoral expediency. The result being that he ceded to blairite MPs on reform of leadership election procedure to reduce the influence of the union block vote. Maybe it was a reaction to the tory press calling him Red Ed? He wouldn’t be the first labour leader to try and prove his rightwing credentials in the face of Daily Heil, Torygraph and The Scum influence.

The horses are already gone I think.

If the labour party really want to jump on the populist bandwagon, there’s really only one person to do it…

If the labour party really want to jump on the populist bandwagon,

They need to, they won’t win by politely pointing out the errors in the populist ways. They need to adopt a similar style (with less lies). Ed Balls is exactly the sort of person they need as their front man (likeable, sounds honest etc,.).

The front man is all that matters now, the policies are hidden away in the background and most people don’t even seem to care about them. Do you think the Labour voters who swing to UKIP have really read and understood the UKIP policies and how most of them would be detrimental to them…

The front man is all that matters now,

Is a point well made. A good deal of the electorate agree with Corbyn’s stance on many things, but he can’t personally connect with those same voters.

The front man is all that matters now

That’s handy for Labour then as they don’t really have a shadow cabinet as most won’t serve in it 🙂

Tom Watson, decent guy potential leader doing his best to hold things together
John McDonnell, IRA sympathiser and self proclaimed Marxist and anti-Capitalist and he’s the shadow chancellor ffs
Diane Abbott, personification of the Islington dinner party elite

Corbyn’s lost of faults has been discussed here at length

It doesn’t matter who leads the Labour Party. If they stick to being the Tory-lite party to satisfy the UK media then it just allows the Tories to move further right. If they present any other option then the media will alternately ignore/eviscerate the new leader as they have with Corbyn.

self proclaimed Marxist and anti-Capitalist and he’s the shadow chancellor ffs

Those things are not necessarily mutually exclusive, Marxism is just another economic theory.

Marxism is just another economic theory

And a much fairer one than the mixes of capitalist rubbish we seem to live with.

Indeed, more people would be better off, but we seem to have collectively shrugged our shoulders in order to buy more stuff.

Corbyn’s lost of faults has been discussed here at length

That doesn’t seem to stop you repeating them over and over and over and over and…

Indeed, more people would be better off, but we seem to have collectively shrugged our shoulders in order to buy more stuff.

on credit.

Do you think the Labour voters who swing to UKIP have really read and understood the UKIP policies and how most of them would be detrimental to them…

*Adopts coloquial estuary Warren Mitchell  accent*

“But Ukip will keep the cooooons owt, wonitt?”

That was me taking the piss BTW, my best mates actually a white middle aged IT professional

Marxism is just another economic theory
And a much fairer one than the mixes of capitalist rubbish we seem to live with.

For consumerism to work well, you actually need a certain something, i cant quite place my finger on what i might be?

Oh, thats it, consumers!
Not 6 years of austerity lead policy and wage surpression whittling away at disposable income or even full scale total removal of income for those hardest hit.

And a much fairer one than the mixes of capitalist rubbish we seem to live with.

Indeed, and every time it’s been tried it seems to work out so well for the masses…

And a much fairer one than the mixes of capitalist rubbish we seem to live with.

Please give examples of these utopia’s

Please give examples of these utopia’s

well, Socialism has pretty much always been tried in third world countries. And pretty much always with the most powerful country in the world invading, assassinating, restricting, fomenting coups and scalping it’s children.

Alternatively can you say that capitalism “works”? A system in place in most “developed” countries, yet we have regular crises, millions go hungry, loads are without healthcare throughout the world, without the bare necessities even in the best of times. And how is even this level of failure sustained during the best of times? Mass slave labour, sweatshop labour, child labour; the subjugation of most of the world’s people to sustain the lifestyles of the few.

The New Year statement is not quite something

Remarkably underwhelming

well, Socialism has pretty much always been tried in third world countries. And pretty much always with the most powerful country in the world invading, assassinating, restricting, fomenting coups and scalping it’s children.

So any examples of the utopia’s lauded? Or is it that there are none? Or are you blaming everyone else for the model never working?

Alternatively can you say that capitalism “works”?

I would suggest it works better than the examples you have yet to quote of successful Marxist economies

Incase you missed it Big n daft..

well, Socialism has pretty much always been tried in third world countries. And pretty much always with the most powerful country in the world invading, assassinating, restricting, fomenting coups and scalping it’s children.

edited for brainfart moment and no time to fact check

The list of socialist utopia’s is blank. McDonnell etc want to take the wealth created by capitalism and share it out amongst those who do not believe in it. Not something anyone in the middle class is going to vote for. Not something that people with wealth or companies are going to allow themselves to be subject to. The anti-Capitalist tag will see Labour truely crushed at the next election, personally I don’t see how they can distance themselves from it given the personalities and track record.

High punative taxes in France have been a disaster with wealth simply leaving the country and the most impacted individuals have been farmers whose theoretical wealth is in their land (most definitely not in their pockets) and have been trapped by the wealth tax.

Venezuela was doing quite fine

Can you provide dates when it was “fine” in Venezuela so I can update the extensive list of other utopia’s

So any examples of the utopia’s lauded?

B&D, have a look at the causes and outcome of the ’73 coup in Chile, fomented by the US who feared “a well-functioning socialist experiment” on the region and exerted diplomatic, economic, and covert pressure upon Chile’s elected socialist government.

Chile wasn’t ever going to be allowed to be socialist. “Utopian” or otherwise TBH. It was never in the interests of the US to allow the people of south america to see if socialism works.

And it’s interesting, don’t you think, that while the supporters of Capitalism allow it to have failures, and even admit that it’s not perfect, somehow Marxism or Socialism has to be Utopian, a state that no political system could achieve TBH, but strange how the Capitalist system has to crush it ruthlessly whenever and wherever it appears.

Please give examples of these utopia’s

Who said it would be utopia? It would be fairer and better on average and closer to a utopia than any consumerist capitalist system where few people are actually happy (even those with the money)

It would be fairer and better on average

Hurrah, everyone join the queue – free jar of Spreewald gherkins included with every Trabant sold.

Nicaragua under the Sandinista did pretty well.

The Soviet union was never socialist. It was totalitarian

The UK is a mixed economy – neither capitalist nor socialist nor any other -ist.

kerley – i am glad to report that i met plenty of people who appeared to be really quite happy today

The list of socialist utopia’s is blank

It’s about the same length as the list of capitalist utopias you pillock!

Double post, for this capitalist land of plenty

Getting back to Jezza, he actually came out with something half-decent the other day, comparing The Maybot with Henry the eighth, with her desire to use archaic royal perogatives to drive through Brexit legislation.

If he carries on that theme he’ll be on to something. I bet she’all absolutely hate that! Pity he did it when no-one is listening as it’s between Christmas and new year and nobody is watching the news as they’re all full of mince pies.

So that potentially effective plan of attack will no doubt be immediately jettisoned in favour of banging on about unilateral nuclear disarmament, or something.

We’ve established that he’s politically clueless, but FFS who on earth is in charge of the labour press office?!!

Certainly not…

I expect the big relaunch will be handled in the same utterly clueless manner

But his comments (as reported) on the EU we’re simply vacuous – at least that is the antithesis of spin, but equally useless!

The Soviet union was never socialist. It was totalitarian

What a pointless attempt at mixed metaphors

What you appear to be trying to say is that the Soviet Union was a series of totalitarian socialist states rather than liberal & democratic socialist states

The question that opens is whether it is truly possible to be both socialist and a liberal democracy, or whether the principles of socialism and collectivism are fundamentally incompatible with democracy and individual freedom. All we know is that so far nobody appears to have succeeded in maintaining one for more than a few fleeting moments, perhaps primarily because their very existence is tied to the instability of permanent revolution.

It’s about the same length as the list of capitalist utopias you pillock!

Nobody said there are capitalist utopia’s, the challenge is for people to name Marxist economies that were measurably more utopian than the numerous capitalist economies around the world.

At the moment the list comprises of Venezuela during an undefined period and a whistful glimmer in Chile during the 70’s. Happy to take more suggestions.

“or whether the principles of socialism and collectivism are fundamentally incompatible with democracy and individual freedom”

It certainly is at the start because initially the richer 50pc of the population all have to move abroad to save their cash from being reallocated to the less rich 50pc.

So straight away you have to build a Trump-esque wall to keep people in.

Hence Corbyn’s lifelong anti EU stance. Socialism doesn’t work with freedom of movement.

Sorry Binners but the Henry the eighth bubble has already burst

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/sorry-jeremy-comparing-theresa-may-henry-viii-depressingly-ignorant/

So straight away you have to build a Trump-esque wall to keep people in.

Stop it, the anti-fascist protective wall was built purely to stand up to western military adventurism, and you know it.

Stop it, the anti-fascist protective wall was built purely to stand up to western military adventurism, and you know it.

No it wasn’t, it was to stop the hordes of economic migrants pouring over the border threatening the purity of the proletarian revolution

“No one should think we are in love with the Wall; that is by no means the case… The anti-fascist protective rampart was necessary to stand up to the military adventurers,”

Walter Ulbricht (East German head of state) 8th Sept 1962 speech to German Workers Conference

Can you provide dates when it was “fine” in Venezuela so I can update the extensive list of other utopia’s

Brilliant. Could be the best STW laugh of 2016 🙂

Venezula, Nigaragua, Cuba … yup all election winning comparisons come 2020. Can’t wait. I appreciate those on the Corbyn side of the argument don’t want to listen to me but those of us on the other side can’t think of a bigger positive for us come 2020 than JC and his legacy. Even if he’s gone by then the residual hint of Momentum (ie Militant Tendancy) around Labour will be enough. The Tories are not attacking Labour as they don’t want to see a change.

Personally I see little difference between Corbyn and Stalin’s ideas of Socialist democracy. Momentum’s agenda is to deselect, democratically of course at a few £ a vote, those who don’t agree. Sound familiar ? A purge is a purge.