[Closed] Japanese whaling

Thoughts?

Personally, I'd expect any ship to defend themselves from acts of piracy on the high seas - no different than what we're seeing off the coast of Somalia really, is it? the only difference is their motivation, but thats down to international Whaling laws, and protest cannot be used as an excuse for piracy.

Regardless of the whaling....

You can't disregard something and then discuss the actions taken in response to protests about the thing you're disregarding.

It is all about the whaling.

If there was no whaling (or whaling was less contentious) there would be no pushing and shoving and no grenades being thrown about.

Yeah saw the Sea Shepard in Hobart a while back with battle scars.

Japan needs to think about this one a bit,

Would suggest watching this too

I thought Japan had called it off after those vids first came out?

Edit; looks like they just suspended it for a couple of days until the military arrived 🙁

Personally, I'd expect any ship to defend themselves from acts of piracy on the high seas

Which acts would those be then?

The hunting of whales in a designated sanctuary against the wishes of a sovereign state? Nope, that would be the Japanese.

Is it the use of high pressure water cannons to attempt to flood ships' engines and leave them stranded in teh Southern Ocean? Nope, again, that would be the Japanese.

How about the use of sonic weapons and flash-bangs near an oil tanker? Nope, that's the Japanese too.

Deploying propellor-fouling equipment? The Japanese

Carrying heavy fuel oil below 60S? Japanese. Doing it in a ship not rated for work in ice? Japanese again. Attempting to refuel below 60S? You guessed it - the Japanese.

Then you have the deliberate ramming of three vessels and the (presumed accidental) ramming of the tanker. Yep, you guessed it - the Japanese.

So just run that by me again - who's doing the piracy?

Pretty controversial outfit.

Looks like the whalers have notched it up a level to even things up.

Why shouldn't we eat whales? If it can be demonstrated that the stocks can be fished sustainably, then I don't see a problem. The issue is demonstrating sustainability, but as we harvest plenty other vertebrates without understanding their population dynamics fully, its hard to make a special case for whales.

So just run that by me again - who's doing the piracy?

Why shouldn't we eat whales? If it can be demonstrated that the stocks can be fished sustainably

It can't, mainly because they were decimated by everyone cashing in a few decades ago.

Then there would be the method of their despatch - fancy an explosive harpoon to the back of your neck, but with the knowledge that it will take a few minutes for you to die?

Nope, thought not.

Why shouldn't we eat whales? If it can be demonstrated that the stocks can be fished sustainably, then I don't see a problem.

One ship chugged out of port intent on getting in another ship's way.

That would be the Sea Shepherd Ships. Now then, correct me if I'm wrong, but I [i]think[/i] that getting in another ship's way, especially when you're a fraction of its size, is hardly an act of piracy.

Especially if that ship is Australian flagged, and in Australian territorial waters, and the ship doing the ramming has been ordered to leave by the Australian Government.

As long as we're not eating too many of them,

And that would be the problem. That, and as I said, the method of their despatch.

Oh, and the fact that commercial whaling is illegal.

Then there would be the method of their despatch - fancy an explosive harpoon to the back of your neck, but with the knowledge that it will take a few minutes for you to die?

Nope, thought not.

Do you drink milk?

I would suggest it is the Australian govt's job to police its own seas if it has the balls to take on the Japanese.

Why are they hiding behind the Sea Shepherd?

Funny, where are Greenpeace these days? I guess waffling on about windfarms is less dangerous than directly confronting aggressive whalers... 🙄

zokes - Member
As long as we're not eating too many of them,
[b]And that would be the problem.[/b] That, and as I said, the method of their despatch.

[b]Oh, and the fact that commercial whaling is illegal.[/b]

We don'y know what a sustainable catch is, but I'd be surprised if Japan was taking more than what is sustainable.

[b]Oh, and the fact that commercial whaling is illegal.[/b]

I think you'll find that's covered (for right or wrong) under the f[i]or scientific use [/i]clause.

TBH, it's time the debate moved on - I guess the WDC are at least raising awareness. They just need to be careful how that awareness raising pans out.

Do you drink milk?

Yes, usually from a small organic farm purchased at the local farmer's market. Are they harpooning male dairy calfs now?

I would suggest it is the Australian govt's job to police its own seas if it has the balls to take on the Japanese.

Why are they hiding behind the Sea Shepherd?

That is a question that is being asked quite a lot here. Something to do with apparent issues of having a naval presence in the antarctic treaty area (but there's already an armed Japanese vessel there), there being a court case due in the international courts some time next millennium, and the risk of it causing a 'diplomatic incident', I think.

Whilst I'm anti-whaling and largely support most of the Sea Shepard stuff I don't really agree it's ramming if you you park you boat right in front of another thats going slowly and expect them just to stop and wait. OK it might be illegal under maritime law but I can see why the whalers kept going (it looks more like the ships kissed than rammed to...) and SS can't be especially surprised by it. The times in the past where the whalers have deliberately altered course and rammed/attempted to ram are different and should have had consequences.
It's most the Australian government need to grow some balls and board, seize and impound the whaling ships when they break the terms of their licences. But ofc money talks and the Aussies aren't going to risk upsetting the Japs.

Yes, usually from a small organic farm purchased at the local farmer's market. [b]Are they harpooning male dairy calfs now?[/b]

Not the last time I looked, but you could argue that as an industry dairy is crueller than whaling.
Personally, I'd take a few minutes of pain at the end of a free life versus being milked to within an inch of my life every day for a few years.

YMMV

Edit: removed the confrontational remark at the end for fear of ferrousness

It's most the Australian government need to grow some balls and board, seize and impound the whaling ships when they break the terms of their licences. But ofc money talks and the Aussies aren't going to risk upsetting the Japs.

They certainly seem happy enough seizing illegal fishing boats and burning them. Not to mention illegal immigrants. Perhaps Sea Shepherd's best hope is to plant some refugees on board one of the 'research' vessels. The Navy would be on to it in minutes in that case.

YMMV, but don't get upset when folk don't automatically agree with your stance.

I'm not. But as I said, I make decisions on the purchase of my food based on animal welfare and sustainability, so the milk thing is a bit of a straw man.

Edit: removed the confrontational remark at the end for fear of ferrousness

Edit: you didn't remove it quick enough. Though I suspect I'm more carbonaceous than ferrous.

We don't know what a sustainable catch is, but I'd be surprised if Japan was taking more than what is sustainable.

To me, the very idea that we, the Human race are deciding what is 'sustainable', in other words, how much we can plunder other species without letting them die out and therefore become useless to us, is what I find really, really abhorrent. We are a parasite...

Anyone know [i]why[/i] the Japanese are being so arsey about the international whaling ban thingy and carrying on regardless?

I could understand if whales were the only food available to you, but there always seems to be excellent choice in Japanese restaurants and hotels. I assume the locals also have massive supermarkets brimming with an unimaginable variety of stuff.

Anyone know why the Japanese are being so arsey about the international whaling ban thingy and carrying on regardless?

Because they can, it seems.

Oh, and there's lots of money in it too...

I wonder what a Narwhal tastes like, got to be the closest thing to a unicorn you are going to get I would imagine?

Anyone know why the Japanese are being so arsey about the international whaling ban thingy and carrying on regardless?

They're not though, the catch is for scientific purposes, so they take only the 500 or so that they need for research each year, then onsell the meat rather than wasting it.

The only countries now that defy the ban on commercial whaling are Iceland and Norway.

I could understand if whales were the only food available to you, but there always seems to be excellent choice in Japanese restaurants and hotels. I assume the locals also have massive supermarkets brimming with an unimaginable variety of stuff.

There's plenty of evidence to suggest that demand is pretty low, with younger Japanese not very keen at all.
It's a cultural thing though innit.

vinnyeh - Member

Looks like the whalers have notched it up a level to even things up.

That happened a while back tbh, there was lots of speculation that the Shonan Maru 2 had been refit purely as an escort boat (it didn't have a harpoon mount). Don't think there was ever any concensus on the sinking of the Ady Gill but the video did seem to show them turning into it immediately before the collision, and there was no question that they failed to offer assistance afterwards- in fact they were still spraying the boat with water cannons after the collision.

The heavy fuel thing is interesting, there at least the whalers do seem to be totally in defiance of the rules of the area. I think most people accept that the "research" is bogus- they're just researching how many whales you can eat.

uwe-r - Member
I wonder what a Narwhal tastes like, got to be the closest thing to a unicorn you are going to get I would imagine?
POSTED 2 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

I'd heard that findus lasagne was the nearest to unicorn actually.

I think most people accept that the "research" is bogus- they're just researching how many whales you can eat.

Man v’s Food, Christmas special?

Do you drink milk?

Cows are bred by human for the sole purpose of providing us with food and milk. If we had not bred them that way the cow as we know it would not exist. Yes the milking regime may be considered cruel for the cow but the fact remains that is what they are bred for.

Whales are not bred for human consumption. [url= http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/animal-bytes/animalia/eumetazoa/coelomates/deuterostomes/chordata/craniata/mammalia/cetacea/endangered-whales-fs.htm#table ]Some whales are endangered.[/url] Though it is not lear whether any of those whales that are endangered are currently being hunted.

I wonder what a Narwhal tastes like

I find it tastes a bit like Kraken.

I’d quite like to try Kraken but it seems you can only get it through, the somewhat questionable, Eastern European suppliers. That and I have my doubts over sustainable fishing.

We don'y know what a sustainable catch is, but I'd be surprised if Japan was taking more than what is sustainable.

Well, as a species we've not managed to achieve sustainability in any other field.

I very much doubt we're about to start now.

They're not though, the catch is for scientific purposes, so they take only the 500 or so that they need for research each year, then onsell the meat rather than wasting it.

I have actually found a paper by a Japanese research institute that obtained its samples from the Nisshin Maru:

[b]Habitat and prey selection of common minke, sei, and Bryde’s whales in mesoscale during summer in the subarctic and transition regions of the western North Pacific[/b]

Their methods section is a bit vague though:

[i]We conducted surveys of oceanographic observations and whale prey species from on board the R/V Shunyo Maru (887 GT, National Research Institute of Far Seas Fisheries) in the western North Pacific from 21–25 July 2008 and 10–22 July 2009 (Fig. 1). These surveys were conducted concurrently with whale sighting and sampling surveys as part of JARPN II by researchers on the Nisshin Maru (7575 GT, Kyodo-Senpaku Co., Ltd.) and two sighting/sampling vessels (Yushin Maru No. 2 and No. 3, 742–743 GT, Kyodo-Senpaku Co., Ltd.) on the same survey track lines during daylight periods from 1 h after sunrise to 1 h before sunset. In 2008, we conducted a survey of Bryde’s whales within a survey area bounded by 35–39°30?N and 146–148°E, where the SST ranged from 17.5–27.6°C (Fig. 1). In 2009, surveys of common minke and sei whales were conducted within an area bounded by 43–45°N and 154°30?–157°30?E (SST 10.2–14.7°C), and 39–41°N and 156–160°E (SST 14.9–18.8°C), respectively (Fig. 1; Table 1). According to previous reports [1, 11, 12], these areas covered the southern part of the main distribution area of common minke and sei whales, as well as the main distribution area of Bryde’s whales, in terms of both latitudinal and SST ranges.[/i]

It's OK - they're just "surveying" the whales, just like ornithologists survey birds with a shotgun prior to roasting them 😕

[i]versus being milked to within an inch of my life every day for a few years.[/i]

Having worked on a dairy farm, this is nonsense.

To me, the very idea that we, the Human race are deciding what is 'sustainable', in other words, how much we can plunder other species without letting them die out and therefore become useless to us, is what I find really, really abhorrent. We are a parasite...

.. in which case, carry on, you're only doing what comes naturally, surely?

Before we all sharpen our pitchforks and get all het up, has anyone here tasted whale? Tasty stuff. Can't really fault them for hunting it.

[img] [/img]

While we're on the cows argument, If they want to eat Whales - and they clearly do - could they not farm them like we do Salmon. I mean, I know they're pretty big and everything, but how many could you fit in that Olympic swimming pool in London? Quite a few, I'd imagine. Once you've kicked Tom Daley and Jo Brand out.

Its a win/win when you think about it. just think of the difference to the trade deficit of flogging tinned Whale with 'Made in Britain' and a little union jack logo on the side. Also it'd save all this nonsense with harpoons and ramming each others boats, and stuff. You'd just be able to stand by the pool and shoot it through the head. Humanely of course.

And we could put the mechanically recovered stuff into burgers and Lasagna, an save a few horses too. That'll cheer up the tree-huggers as well, I'd have thought

It's OK - they're just "surveying" the whales

Doesn't it strike them as a bit odd that each whale they carefully scientifically survey somehow ends up dead on the deck of their ship?

I suppose it's a reliable method to avoid re-counting the same whales over and over again. If they're not moving. And not in the sea.

Or it it that an important part of the survey involves renowned food and restaurant critics?

I don't like what the Sea Shepard et al do regarding their confrontational approach to stopping the whalers BUT it seems that they're the only ones really doing anything. The Discovery program made them look a bunch of disorganised wannabe hero's and in my opinion didn't do them many favours, however the fact remains that they're the only ones really going out on a limb to stop them.

I abhor whaling and this suggestion that it's for scientific purposes is a joke. They really do need to be stopped and if it takes a couple of 'hippy' boats being sunk and people being injured to make a point, then all power to them...

Jam it zokes. They won't hunt them into extinction as they like eating them. Doesn't make sense. Hippy propaganda.

+1 flange.

I'd much rather an Australian Navy or Coastguard vessel kindly showed the Japanese the door and both defended their own territory and upheld the relevant international laws in the region. They're quick enough to stop any boats with asylum seekers or 'illegal' fishermen*

However, in the absence of that, it's pretty amazing that Sea Shepherd are getting the results the seem to be achieving. And this time at least, compared to multiple Japanese attempts to sink or disable them, they've simply put themselves in the right (or wrong, depending on your outlook) position and made whaling nigh on impossible. They'd not even been using their own water cannons on this campaign until the latest incident. I don't normally agree with direct action, but the brazen manner in which the Japanese are carrying out their commercial whaling activities requires [i]some[/i] action. And if Australia won't do it, then better Sea Shepherd do than noone at all.

*When they have no connection to regional powers

They won't hunt them into extinction as they like eating them.

Like cod then, or bluefin tuna?

You seem to be particularly hard of thinking. Find a playground to play in - you'll probably find a level of intellect you're more accustomed to there.

How's this for an idea? Why don't they not hunt them because it is illegal to do so, that being an international treaty based upon scientific evidence? Or were there too many long words in that sentence for you?

The only countries now that defy the ban on commercial whaling are Iceland and Norway.

there are friends of mine aboard the Bob Barker at the moment.
i know that they know the risks involved, but at the same time i hope they stay safe. it looks dodgy at the moment.

Jam it zokes. They won't hunt them into extinction as they like eating them. Doesn't make sense. Hippy propaganda.

Do you drink milk? 😆 what do you say to that level of wit and sophisticated discourse.

Scarily I am with Zokes on this one, the Japanese have been flouting rules on this for years. Scientific research my ass!

i've watched a few series' of Whale Wars and found them brilliant TV but the Sea Shepherds do come accross as a bunch of gobshites who are taking protesting a bit too far.... If I was against the HS2 railway the last thing I'll do is park my car on a railway line and try and stop a 10,000 ton piece of metalwork in it's tracks, the laws of the seas don't count against the laws of physics and people will die because of their beliefs.

Any whale isn't worth a human IMHO

i've watched a few series' of Whale Wars

Sweet Jesus and the orphans!! They're making them fight each other?!! Does their inhumanity know no bounds?!!! Is it like cock fighting, but on a massive, blubbery scale

Greenpeace were regarded as a bunch of eco nut job terrorists so much so that the French secret service murdered one of them and sank a ship docked in another country. Greenpeace are now lauded for there work. Same will happen to Sea Shepherd.

Is it like cock fighting, but on a massive, blubbery scale

No, that's this place.

Sweet Jesus and the orphans!! They're making them fight each other?!! Does their inhumanity know no bounds?!!! Is it like cock fighting, but on a massive, blubbery scale

They strap "lasers" to their heads.

Re: Hunting whales. No No No No. End of story. We have deliberately domesticated certain animals to provide food, why do we need to continue to plunder the rest of the animal kingdom? This is especially true when there is no humane way to kill the animal and their numbers are shaky at best.

Any whale isn't worth a human IMHO

A commonly held view and why essentially we as a species have such utter tunnel-arrogance, claiming dominion over everything we can dessimate, turning creatures into farmed products.
I am ashamed by my species to be honest, so capable of intelligence but so often failing to use it.

I am ashamed by my species to be honest, so capable of intelligence but so often failing to use it.

Surely breeding all those daft, furry things specifically so that you can have a readily available, and cheap source of burgers and kebabs is the very epitome of intelligence?

Its a bit pathetic that Japan is even trying to justify this as "scientific", we don't need to eat whales, there are other things.

Mind you I think much the same thing about powdered rhino horn remedies - tatty bye bye, rhinos. And elephant tusk trading. And eating turtles or gorillas. And making love potions from tiger tadgers.

The list is sadly, quite extensive.

we don't need to eat whales, there are other things.

To be fair, we don't [b]need[/b] to eat any animals 😕

To be fair, we don't need to eat any animals

except for the ones we have eugenically bred to be slaughtered. It would be cruel to let them roam free. They cannot operate without us.

binners - Member
[b]I am ashamed by my species to be honest, so capable of intelligence but so often failing to use it.[/b]

Surely breeding all those daft, furry things specifically so that you can have a readily available, and cheap source of burgers and kebabs is the very epitome of intelligence?

Yeah and let's not forget all the downsides and unnatural processes needed to create and sustain that cheap source of burgers and kebabs but hey, thanks for reinforcing my point.. 😉

To be fair, we don't need to eat any animals

except for the ones we have eugenically bred to be slaughtered. It would be cruel to let them roam free. They cannot operate without us.

[img] [/img]

fourbanger - Member

Jam it zokes. They won't hunt them into extinction as they like eating them. Doesn't make sense. Hippy propaganda.

Good effort this, for a second I actually thought it was serious.

Before we all sharpen our pitchforks and get all het up, has anyone here tasted whale? Tasty stuff. Can't really fault them for hunting it.

I think you'll find that's covered (for right or wrong) under the for scientific use clause.

Excellent logic......and while we're at it, they may as well go and shoot a few tigers, rhinos, elephants etc etc for a bit of research as they might be tasty too, with the added bonus they can utilise other bits to pep up their sex life, make dodgy potions for medicinal purposes and even attractive carvings

This.

The "scientific hunt" is no different. Many species of whale are endangered, and as joao3v16 points out, their method of "scientific survey" always seems to land up with the whale they've just surveyed dead, in bits, on their ship's deck.

If they were better at cetacean research, they'd have worked out how to leave the whale in the sea without a grenade-tipped harpoon poking out of its neck as a marker.

They're not though, the catch is for [s]scientific[/s][b]commercial[/b] purposes, so they take only the 500 or so that they need for [b]can just about get away with claiming it's for [/b]research each year, then onsell the meat rather than wasting it.

The only countries now that defy the ban on commercial whaling are Iceland and Norway [b]and Japan[/b].

It's a cultural thing, the whaling industry receives huge subsidy from the Japanese government. Some of that money was donated by other governments following the Tsunami. It's fairly shocking that a government would push something so far. There is plenty of evidence of bribery of smaller nations to keep the International Whaling meetings in favour of Japan and away from outright bans.

Aye, that was eye-opening- $30 million from the tsunami fund for whaling, justified because it would help the whaling port recover- even though none of it was spent on the port.

In inadvertently ate right whale in Norway. It taste good BTW. I don't sanction with hunting whale while it remains internationally outlawed. Attacking protester ships is bang out of order.

I'm surprised some enterprising and sneaky type hasn't made up some small but powerful explosive devices, in waterproof casings, with magnets on, and snuck into the whaling fleet home ports at night, and attached them to the hulls of the whalers and factory ships. A warning to the crew to get the hell off, then nice big holes punched in the bottom. The loss of entire fleets that I'm pretty sure couldn't be economically replaced, thus ending the whole disgusting industry.
Economic loss without loss of life. Result.

I'm pretty sure SSCS used to go in for sinking whalers after making sure everyone was off (or able to get off). I guess they're trying to move away from the "terrorist" label, hence their non-agression this time.

[img] [/img]

What you want is to escalate the whale war to full scale war so that they get to meet Fat Boy and Little man again ... 😈

Or launch something from Japland to the land of Dear Leader ... to see fireworks.

The weird thing is, the fleet runs at a loss, it's been kept afloat by subsidies for years, never mind the cost of the government support. It genuinely is a cultural/idealogical thing not a financial greed thing. Not that it makes any real difference.

So, just hitting them in the wallets doesn't seem to do the trick. Sea Shepherd do claim 10 "kills" including some sunk by explosives though. (others scuttled, some seized by national forces and subsequently sunk)

The only countries now that defy the ban on commercial whaling are Iceland and Norway and Japan

If and when whale stocks return there is no reason why the IWC shouldn't open up more extensive whaling with the following controls: "[i]complete protection of certain species; designate specified areas as whale sanctuaries; set limits on the numbers and size of whales which may be taken; prescribe open and closed seasons and areas for whaling; and prohibit the capture of suckling calves and female whales accompanied by calves.[/i]"

http://iwc.int/history-and-purpose

New video not looking too good for the 'evil Japs rammed us' narrative...

Hard to tell what's going on from the deck of a ship tbh, no fixed points.

This one seems pretty unequivocal though... That's the Sun Laurel's lifeboat rig that's taking the blow too, nice move.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/environment/sea-shepherd-claims-whalers-using-stun-grenades-20130225-2f1is.html

More footage from the same sequence here

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/whale-watch/military-icebreaker-arrives-to-defend-japanese-whalers-20130225-2f0hj.html

Don't think there's much question here of what's going on in these films?

I think all the who-rammed-who thing is sometimes a bit of a nonsense, if you're using this sort of physical interference tactic, things are going to collide, and ships aren't exactly precision instruments. A lot of it's basically full-contact sport. But not always and that definitely doesn't look like "oh we got too close, oops" to me.

designate specified areas as whale sanctuaries

They are currently attempting to whale in one of those sanctuaries.

And then as discussed, another very sound reason for not allowing any whaling is the method of their despatch, which TBH makes bull-fights appear humane.

A couple of frigates would a better job of [s]sinking[/s] warning off those whalers.

Time the whole "cretacean research" baloney cover was blown [s]out of the water[/s].

They are currently attempting to whale in one of those sanctuaries.

With hindsight, maybe the power to grant the scientific licenses shouldn't have been left with nation states in the first place.

With hindsight, maybe the power to grant the scientific licenses shouldn't have been left with nation states in the first place.

y'think? 😯