It's global cooling, not warming!

I'm still interested in hearing if anyone has any idea on my question from earlier
I've looked about a bit but haven't come across anything that really addresses it

I don't really follow this sort of stuff too closely but at the Copenhagen conference there was a commitment [or talk] of restricting global temp rise to less than 2C over n years
How exactly can that be managed?

What I mean is, is it as easy as saying "we're warming up a bit fast, we'll ease back for a while"
Can we really see an effect of our actions that quickly?

Hainey has hit the nail on the head.

I however do believe however that climate is influenced by industrialisation, but my arguments are exactly the same – there is an inconsistent approach from politicians who have been utterly inept at provisioning for alternative energy production, public transport and being straight with the public about the biggest sources of man made carbon emissions.

The research must be open to reasoned criticism, we don't live in the dark ages and screaming "heretic!" at someone who doesn't agree with you isn't the way to go. We live in the 21st century and not under the threat of the Spanish Inquisition.

Whatever happens, we all need to wean ourselves off fossil fuels – the sooner the better.

However there is no evidence or proof that climate change is due to man.

Its not proveable so thats not a suprise.

uplink, to answer your question, I would imagine its just a best guess based on current models, I thought at the time it was a fairly stupid thing to try to do, but I suppose it enables politicians to put a price tag and look at costs and benefits.

Where has anyone ever called anyone a heretic in any scientific literature?
It is a label that those given to themselves as they like to think they are victims of some sort of global conspiracy – if there is one it is an attempt to educate them. It is like when people who believe in psychic powers accuse you of having a closed mind – it is a pointless insult/slur that adds nothing to your argument.
reasoned criticism – what like research being peer reviewed by other experts in the field – yes why have they never thought of that 🙄

people seem to be unable to understand that science never prooves anything.

Tthey also seem to want to ignore the weight of evidence and data and give equal eight to any theroy /hypothesis no matter how [prima facia] ludicrous. Creationism or evolution, astrology or astronomy, psychic powers or psychology. you can never prove a negative- nothing can be proved to be right or wrong in science it either has no evidence/poor evidence/weak evidence to support it or lots. In this example which set off evidence is the strongest.
hainey will be along in a minute to explain why gravity and other things are proved and this is just theory.

The reality of the situation is that our lives are hugely impacted by green taxes, initiatives and policies all in the name of man-made global warming. Some impacts are always good – encouraging less reliance on fossil fuels is always a win win for example.

Don't agree. What "green" taxes are you talking about?

I would say the reverse is true, for example no fuel duty on aviation fuel, which encourages people to fly more, relative to other forms of transport (as opposed to 50+ p / litre on petrol/diesel)

But in any case you seem to be making the very common mistake of thinking that tax is something that is just taken away, which of course it isn't because all of our taxes are used for something.

Tax is about redistribution and any government will try to balance the amount of tax it collects with the program of spending it wants to put in place. In doing that it can try to modify behaviour by taxing one thing more or less relative to another.

So if there were no fuel duty on petrol (say), then something else would have to be taxed to keep our hospitals open (say).

But in any case you seem to be making the very common mistake of thinking that tax is something that is just taken away, which of course it isn't because all of our taxes are used for something.

Porn, duckhouses, the scottish parliament, nice office chairs, £250K salaries for council managers. Yep, it gets used. For worthless crap.

The planet is 4billion years old? I'm sure it will bo ok for another 40 years or so, after that I dont care.

And that's (possibly, or possibly not) how we got in this mess in the first place.

At what point should we start caring?

Gen 1: "Ah the waters only up to my ankles, I'll be dead before it reaches my calfs"
Gen 2: "Ah the waters only up to my calfs, I'll be dead before it reaches my knees"
Gen 3: "Ah the waters only up to my knees, I'll be dead before it reaches my nuts"
Gen 4: "Brrrr…."

🙂

For what it's worth, I reckon if you live 40 years from today then it is quite likely that your life will be impacted by climate change (man-made or not) and population pressure. Certainly the lives of your children or grandchildren will be.

Porn, duckhouses, the scottish parliament, nice office chairs, £250K salaries for council managers. Yep, it gets used. For worthless crap.

All emotive and controversial stuff. Sell papers well, but it's also a tiny, tiny drop in the ocean of tax expenditure and public finance.

In any case I wasn't really talking about WHAT the tax gets spent on, (though I believe more gets spent on the national health service than on duck houses).

What I was trying to get across is that any government will tax some things in order to pay for some other things. Whether the things being taxed are 'green' things or not won't increase or decrease the overall tax take significantly.

Again…

Green taxes.. Just so I can work out how much of my own earnings go on them can someone please give me a list of them?

…Some of them?

..one of them?

What are these green taxes that are having such a huge impact on my life?

<Tumbleweed>

Whether the things being taxed are 'green' things or not won't increase or decrease the overall tax take significantly.

Unless presumably, the "green tax" actually does what it is supposed to do. In which case, the government will have to put up tax/find new ways to tax, to make up for the shortfall.

Because as far as I am aware, green taxes are the only taxes which are specifically designed to encourage people not to pay them.

Don't like green taxes ? Simply solution ……… don't pay them.

Sorted.

Tax the bads……..not the goods.

er..

What Green Taxes?

we should all try to consume as little as possible. that includes fewer flat screens, cars, cans, bottles or anything else that requires large volumes of energy and resources to produce.

we should try to leave as small a trail as possible all the way to the grave.

if we keep using up the earth's resources mankind will be fecked.

population growth will have a bigger impact upon the earth than global warming – or climate change depending upon which paper you read. have a look at Easter Island for an example of what the depletion of resources does to a community.

as long as you all keep having kids, mankind is fecked.

er..

What Green Taxes?

Well they are obviously having very little effect on your life………Excellent ! ……..carry on as you were 8)

What Green Taxes?

there's got to be some – hasn't there?

Landfill tax?

Just checked my bank statements and I seem to be in the clear on that one..

Any more?

as long as you all keep having kids, mankind is fecked.

er… Hmmm.. what's wrong with this statement? 🙂

Just checked my bank statements and I seem to be in the clear on that one.

I would guess that if you pay council tax – it's in with that
Along with the supermarkets & shops etc.
in fact anyone that produces waste that you buy goods or services off

there's got to be some – hasn't there?

Well of course there is. "Green taxes" is an accepted term to describe taxes which are designed to encourage environmentally friendly behaviour.

A quick Google will give you lots of results for the term :

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=green+taxes&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

I agree that the comment, "our lives are hugely impacted by green taxes" is complete nonsense though.

Which is a shame really – because if they were that effective, we'd all be a whole lot better off.

Mark – Resident Grumpy

as long as you all keep having kids, mankind is fecked.

er… Hmmm.. what's wrong with this statement? 🙂

thinly vieled swearing….? i apologise profusely… 😉

A quick Google will give you lots of results for the term : [green taxes]

But a quick glance through the first page of results shows that none of them are about actual "green taxes"

They are all stories reporting "fears that…", "suggestions that…", "moves to impose…", etc.

In fact just the sort of media hysteria that prompts the ill informed comments of the likes of Hainey.

But a quick glance through the first page of results shows that none of them are about actual "green taxes"

What about the landfill one?

What about the landfill one?

Well alright……….let me also Google that one for you :

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=O9w&q=landfill++tax&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

How's that ? Any more ?

Sorry uplink, I hadn't seen the preceding post to yours….I had assumed that you had wanted someone to google "landfill taxes" LOL ! 😀

Sorry ….. 😳

have a look at Easter Island for an example of what the depletion of resources does to a community.

Although all the raids by slave traders and outbreaks of smallpox and TB brought by outsiders probably didn't help.

Fuel duty has increased in the name of green taxes
Road Fund license has increased in the name of green tax
Airline tax has increased in the name of green tax
Where does the money come from for the car scrappage scheme?
Where does the money come from for the boiler scrappage scheme?
Where does the money come from that we have pledged under the various treaties for combating climate change?
Where does the money come from for building wind turbines – the most mind boggling useless, environmentally unfriendly thing ever?

It all grows on the magic government money tree i am sure!

Road Fund license has increased in the name of green tax

Did VED actually increase though? I thought they just altered the way they determined what band you were in?

Certainly this was one of the change that was touted as "revenue neutral" – i.e. they didn't gain or lose money from it, just altered who was paying it to make it "greener".

Yeah i am sure that all the struggling families out there were really happy when to tax there people carriers it suddenly cost twice as much.

VED tax rates in the 2008 budget looked something like this

VED for petrol and diesel cars
Band A (up to 100g/km CO2) no fee
Band B (101-120g/km CO2) £35
Band C (121-150g/km CO2) £120 – £5 increase
Band D (151-165g/km CO2) £145 – £5 increase
Band E (166-185g/km CO2) £170 – £5 increase
Band F (185g/km to 225 CO2)£210 – £5 increase
Band G* (226g/km and above ) £385 – £100 increase

Now try and find many cars out there under 120g/km!

no fee
£35
£120 – £5 increase
£145 – £5 increase
£170 – £5 increase
£210 – £5 increase
£385 – £100 increase

So none have "suddenly cost twice as much" then ?

BTW, why do "struggling families" need people carriers ? …….can't they struggle in saloon cars ?

Well… they brought in the change in the way VED was charged in March 2005, moving from a system based on engine capacity to a scale based on CO2 emissions – but it only applies to cars registered after March 2001. Older cars stayed on the old system.

So "all the struggling families" that apparently suddenly found themselves paying twice as much must have been driving pretty new people carriers, with remarkably small engines, yet terrible emissions. 🙂

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

Thats fine to scorn families, go for it if it makes you feel better about yourself, but the reality of the situation is that with most of these so called green taxes it is families that are worst hit.

I'm not scorning anyone, I'm saying that they don't exist 🙂

Under the old system the costs are:

Under 1549cc: £125
Over 1549cc: £190

I don't know of many 1.5l people carriers built between 2001-2005, but assuming you were driving one at the time then it would have to have Band K (201-225g/km) or worse to come anywhere even close to paying twice the amount (£215 vs £125)

Note: I'm using current VED rates because I can't be arsed finding the rates circa March 2005 when the change was brought in. Feel free to find them and adjust my figures

Now try and find many cars out there under 120g/km!

# Nissan Note 1.5 dCi Acenta 5dr with 119g/km CO2 and 62.8mpg combined.
# Citroen Nemo 1.4 HDi 8v 5dr with 119g/km CO2 and 62.8mpg combined.
# Fiat Qubo 1.3 Multijet Active 5dr with 119g/km CO2 and 62.8mpg combined.

— according to http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2008/02/27/top-5-green-car-people-carriers/

Hainey said:

The reality of the situation is that our lives are hugely impacted by green taxes, initiatives and policies

"Hugely impacted"?

Well, you had a good long time to think about it and your list looks a bit thin to me.

VED's been done, so I'll move onto some of the others.

The fuel duty escalator has been repeatedly not applied in recent years.

Airline tax – as I already mentioned the airlines get a massive subsidy from those of us who don't fly as they pay no fuel duty and any other taxes that are paid on flights do very little to restore a balance.

The car scrappage scheme wasn't a "green tax" it was a response to the recent financial crisis to save jobs in the motor industry.

The boiler scheme hasn't started yet, so really it hasn't "hugely impacted" on anyone has it?

What money have we pledged under "various treaties" for combatting climate change?

The money for building wind turbines comes from private industry – not out of taxation.

So in fact you've not managed to name one "green tax" although you are sure that green taxes HUGELY IMPACT on our way of life.

Grow up mate.

Oou look GrahamS, all those examples you have given are 119g/km, which is just a touch under 120g/km.
It's almost as if the car manufacturers have done it on purpose to keep the emission levels below 120g/km.

What a happy coincidence, as it happens to comply rather favourably, with the governments "green tax" policies.

Not that "green tax" policies have any sort of positive effect ……. you understand.

fools you should have agreed they were all secret green taxes to fuel his paranoia …pun intended 😉

Thats fine to scorn families, go for it if it makes you feel better about yourself, but the reality of the situation is that with most of these so called green taxes it is families that are worst hit.

No one is scorning families.. Instead your own numbers and quotes have just been used to comprehensively dismantle your entire argument by showing up your opinions for the media driven, headline soundbite nonsense that it actually is..

Just taking for a brief second your own argument.. if I were to buy a small car having scrapped my old one, then get a new boiler, could actually benefit by several thousand pounds!

I like these green taxes! But don't they usually get taken away rather than handed out?

Oh wait! Now I remember… Governments collect taxes in order to spend on the country and in order to modify the behaviour of society as a whole.

Do you actually have a problem with that? I don't. It all sounds logical, rational and overall rather sensible.. Kind of like what your arguments so far have not been 🙂

🙂