It's global cooling, not warming!

Spongebob:

You seem to think that governments want us to believe that climate change is believing to they can tax us?

Get a grip – when has any government worried about taxing us? After the financial meltdown we're in they will tax anything and everything without having to put up some form of screen of 'ooh, green taxes'!

The simple fact that CO2 captures and re-radiates energy is proven and indisputable.

More energy is a system creates more turbulence and greater un-predictability, which in turn is harder to model.

It only takes a bit of cold weather to show how many people can't differentiate weather and climate.

As has already been discussed here, the Earth's climate has always fluctuated between warmer and colder periods. The issue is one of magnitude and speed, and how much the extra energy in the system, put there by anthropogenic sources, will push the natural cycle to one extreme or the other.

Monte-carlo simulations on some of the worlds most powerful super computers appear to suggest that we're facing a period of unprecedented and RAPID warming.

The RAPID bit is the important part, since its predicted to be so rapid that adaptation by the worlds habitats and species may be difficult or impossible – end result – extinctions and a massive impact to our traditional food production practices within decades rather than centuries.

The speed of the change will change weather patterns and affect water supplies so fast that we will see mass starvation, Climate refugee migration on a mass scale and food supply problems.

Its not going to be a problem for 'life' but it will be a problem for life and civilisation as we know it. If it goes the way the models suggest, the world in 100 years will be a rather different place from the one we know know, but isn't that always the case?

Yeah because some people on a car forum obviously know more than the majority of the world's climate scientists.

I wish people would just be honest enough to say that they don't really give a shit about climate change and whether man is having an impact on it, rather than claiming they know something about it.

I think with most people it's not that they don't give a shit about it, but just that they don't see how any decisions they make are going to affect it, or how it's going to affect them, their children, or their children's children.
As such they're quite willing to do things like get energy efficient lightbulbs instead of normals when it's convenient to do so, but don't rightly see how putting themselves out by a considerable degree in the name of climate change is anything but a completely thankless exercise.

**** me some people who can seemingly manage to write in a coherant manner are actually completete retards with astounding levels of arrogance in thinking they understand more about something than people who have dedicated their lives to studying it.

Get a grip – when has any government worried about taxing us?

When a general election is looming??

We'll all feel rightly put out when the cost of wheat triples and the cost of feeding ourselves consumes all our disposable incomes.

I think with most people it's not that they don't give a shit about it, but just that they don't see how any decisions they make are going to affect it, or how it's going to affect them, their children, or their children's children.

Yeah fair enough but why does no-one ever say that either? Instead they come up with the same rehashed and discredited arguments about ice ages and global conspiracies.

Get a grip – when has any government worried about taxing us?

Stealth tax = a tax they hope we won't notice, or one that we can see, but don't think will affect us much.

It's a form of deception IMHO and if they weren't worried about taxing us, stealth taxation would not exist.

I have a grip thank you very much AdamW!

**** me some people who can seemingly manage to write in a coherant manner are actually completete retards with astounding levels of arrogance in thinking they understand more about something than people who have dedicated their lives to studying it.

Work in any industry for a few years and you'll realise the industry experts are all bluffers and ****. The climate industry won't be any different.

anagallis_arvensis – Member

**** me some people who can seemingly manage to write in a coherant manner are actually completete retards with astounding levels of arrogance in thinking they understand more about something than people who have dedicated their lives to studying it.

Are you referring to yourself anagalliss_arvensis?

**** me some people who can seemingly manage to write in a coherant manner are actually completete retards with astounding levels of arrogance in thinking they understand more about something than people who have dedicated their lives to studying it.

They only hear want to the stuff that doesn't affect their selfish little lives I'm afraid.

> Get a grip – when has any government worried about taxing us?

When a general election is looming??

So in your considered opinion the vast majoirty of the world's climate scientists and the world governments have agreed to this global deception because the UK is going to have an election soon and folk might not like taxes much???

It's a form of deception IMHO and if they weren't worried about taxing us, stealth taxation would not exist.

It doesn't does it? What taxes am I paying that I know nothing about?
Calling a tax that everyone knows about a "stealth tax" seems a bit odd to me.

Spongebob – Member

"Get a grip – when has any government worried about taxing us?"

When a general election is looming??

How true. But what I don't understand, is why China is going along with this climate change nonsense. Because obviously they don't need to "worry about a general election looming".

Any clues Spongebob ?

China vows climate change action

If politicians take Climate Change so seriously, why is only 5% of green tax revenues then reinvested in renewable energy projects?

Why is the cost of public transport continuing to increase?

Why are governments unwilling to legislate against high CO2 emitting cars and air travel beyond simply adding more Green Taxes?

Why does Stanstead need another runway?

Why isn't the Severn Estuary being tapped for tidal energy?

How true. But what I don't understand, is why China is going along with this climate change nonsense. Because obviously they don't need to "worry about a general election looming".

International politics. Just another part of the game.

I don't really follow this sort of stuff too closely but at the Copenhagen conference there was a commitment [or talk] of restricting global temp rise to less than 2C over n years
How exactly can that be managed?

What I mean is, is it as easy as saying "we're warming up a bit fast, we'll ease back for a while"
Can we really see an effect of our actions that quickly?

Yes Ernie! China are going along with it because of international pressure (the countries that buy their goods are leaning on them), but it's only political rhetoric. I can't imagine they will really make significant changes.

PJM1974 – yes governments are no doubt using MMCC cynically, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

Why is the cost of public transport continuing to increase?

Privatised, have to make profit?

Why are governments unwilling to legislate against high CO2 emitting cars and air travel beyond simply adding more Green Taxes?

Because voters drive cars like that, and use air travel?

Why does Stanstead need another runway?

Because we want to travel by air a lot more and any climate issue goes out the window when business is involved(see Copenhagen for details)

China are going along with it because of international pressure.

Rightio …….. they are just doing what they being told to do. It's good to know that they are so sensitive to outside pressure – I had no idea.

And presumably so keen to help Western governments get re-elected.

Graham S

So in your considered opinion the vast majoirty of the world's climate scientists and the world governments have agreed to this global deception because the UK is going to have an election soon and folk might not like taxes much???

I didn't even suggest that! You are twisting what I wrote.

Now Ernie, give me an actual figure for this "vast" majority of scientists. Do you have a figure for all the scientists who don't subscribe to this and who are scared they would loose their research budgets?

You must also bear in mind that politicians all round the globe are like ours. For one they aren't scientists! Many of them have no expertise, but rely on paid, so called "experts". Politicans mostly lie and cheat their way to power and then continue this once in office. Their arrogance knows no bounds and the longer they are there, the worse they get! In my life I have seen plenty of evidence to support this. They are self serving egotists who are arrogant enough to think we should bother to listen to them. They will act on the advice they receive, but frequently come up with solutions to problems that clearly demonstrates that they haven't understood the problem! In most cases however, they seem clever enough to raise money from their schemes. OH what a cynic I am!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8299079.stm

For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

a decade isn't really a good timescale to measure things,
but the doom and gloom hasn't materialised like many said
interesting though, it does seem that none of the scientists can agree on what is happening out there 🙂

If politicians REALLY wanted to get us to significantly reduce our CO2 emissions, they would ban wasteful activities, not just tax them more!

They won't do this in a hurry because it affects economies and in turn, tax receipts.

Like killing the golden goose.

Now Ernie, give me an actual figure for this "vast" majority of scientists. Do you have a figure for all the scientists who don't subscribe to this and who are scared they would loose their research budgets?

It wasn't me what said it.

I'm well aware that the crafty buggers don't want to lose their research budgets.

That means that whilst we're still on our way out of the last ice age (so it's going to get warmer) we may be on a shorter term downward curve.

Some rentaprof on the news made this mistake the other week as well. Throughout the mid/late Quaternary interglacial periods have lasted ~10 thousand years, separated by much longer glacials of about 100ka. The current interglacial started ~12ka ago, so that would suggest the Earth should start getting colder any time now.

It appears that anthropogenically-induced climate changes are causing deviation from this pattern though.

(sorry to buck the trend and cite actual evidence by the way)

If politicians REALLY wanted to get us to significantly reduce our CO2 emissions, they would ban wasteful activities, not just tax them more!

But banning isn't compatible with our free world….

You must also bear in mind that politicians all round the globe are like ours. For one they aren't scientists! Many of them have no expertise, but rely on paid so called "experts". Politicans mostly lie and cheat their way to power and then continue this. Their arrogance knows no bounds! In my life I have seen plenty of evidence to support this. They are self serving egotists who are arrogant enough to think we should bother to listen to them. They will act on the advice they receive, but frequently come up with solutions to problems, that clearly demonstrate that they haven't understood the problem. In most cases however, they are clever enough to raise money from their schemes. OH what a cynic I am!!!

You now seem to have moved on from attacking the science of climate change to attacking politicians. So is this little rant of yours about climate change or paying taxes?

I don't really follow this sort of stuff too closely but at the Copenhagen conference there was a commitment [or talk] of restricting global temp rise to less than 2C over n years
How exactly can that be managed?

What I mean is, is it as easy as saying "we're warming up a bit fast, we'll ease back for a while"
Can we really see an effect of our actions that quickly?

anyone?
Genuinely interested BTW

I didn't even suggest that! You are twisting what I wrote.

Are you new here? 😉

I didn't twist it that much: you said it was an excuse for unstealthy stealth taxes and when asked why the government needed an excuse you suggested general elections.

The point stands: calling widely publicised taxes that everyone can see, "stealth taxes" is just an emotive attack. Suggesting that governments don't have the power to raise taxes without climate change is also a bit weak.

If politicians REALLY wanted to get us to significantly reduce our CO2 emissions, they would ban wasteful activities, not just tax them more!

Banning is hugely ineffective (ever heard of prohibition?). Doing something drastic like banning all car travel for one day a week would make huge impact, but would also cause huge public revolt.

Taxation is about the psychology of nudges.

Nice explanation of current winter conditions & its significance re climate change here:

http://metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2010/pr20100106b.html

Throughout the mid/late Quaternary interglacial periods have lasted ~10 thousand years, separated by much longer glacials of about 100ka. The current interglacial started ~12ka ago, so that would suggest the Earth should start getting colder any time now.

ahhh so its the fault of those pesky Romans 2000 years ago who stopped the earth heading back into an Ice Age.

I read something on here about low sunspot activity on the sun,and read some where that during the 90's and early part of this century there was increased activity also astronemers during the little ice age reported low sunspot activity! Seems a logical explanation to me…. 💡

I read something on here about low sunspot activity on the sun,and read some where that during the 90's and early part of this century there was increased activity also astronemers during the little ice age reported low sunspot activity! Seems a logical explanation to me….

Someone best tell all the scientists (and the astronemers). They might not have considered the sun. 🙄

Grizzer: go read the Royal Society website. They have nice explanations of why it isn't due to sunspots, elleptical orbits etc etc.

The sunspot/warming correlation has been debunked, but it keeps getting discussed anyway.

http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/DamonLaut2004.pdf

(EDIT: GrahamS you beat me to it. Your source might be a bit more accessible though 😆 )

There are some entertaining studies correlating sunspot activity with election results and England's cricket scores too.

The fact is no one REALLY knows!

Historically it is natural cycles, we know that. Computer simulations are just that, simulations.

My computer simulated that if I try and attack a hoard of covenant with just a shotgun I would succeed. In real life i know i would fail!!

debunking the debunking…

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Historically it is natural cycles, we know that. Computer simulations are just that, simulations.

The simulations are useful to speculate causes and what might happen in the future.

But right now we have genuine non-simulated physical measurements that are apparently outwith those natural historical cycles.

Lord Summerisle, none of the links you provided are from peer-reviewed journals. They are also all criticisms of one specific paper (Lockwood and Frohlich, 2007). I haven't read it and it might indeed be bad science.

However, there are numerous other papers arguing against any significant sunspot/warming trend, particulary for the period post-1980. See for example Erlykin et al. (2009), Benestad & Schmidt (2009) and Wenzler et al. (2009), plus the Laut one i linked to in my previous post.

couldnt see the laut one, link didnt work for me.