It may have hit the fan in Ukraine – passenger jet shot down

why not ? worked really well for the Czechs and Slovaks.

Lets not forget Kosovo!

And the unfortunate ‘mistake’ could probably be avoided by the simple act of not supplying massively advanced technical weapons systems to nutters, who you have little control over.

I think the Jury is very much out on where they got the weapons, but as mentioned, the evidence seems to point to them having seizied them off the Ukrainians

As the Americans found out in Afghanistan.

Or your own highly trained armed forces, as the Americans found out (at the cost of an Iranian civilian airliner) in the persian Gulf.

Would be kind of hard to record radar when civilian airliners don’t have any. It would be useful to have the flight recorder, but given everybody agrees it was shot down by a missile it’s unlikely to add anything very much – just information on exactly how it crashed after hit by the missile (or not necessarily even that – there’s a good chance it’s a normal recording and then suddenly stops when the missile takes out the power to the flight recorder – nobody will have known anything was wrong until the missile hit).

That changed when Kiev decided to retake the areas by force. It is reasonable to assume that there will be considerable more bloodshed

I am not sure what on earth you are referrign to here

Most observers consider russia [ and russian nationals who live in the Ukraine] to have taken areas by force via an armed insurgency [ this is what happened after they “annexed the crimea of course]and international law [ as with palestine] would allow them to “retake”, as you seem to wish to call it, their own country from a alargely foreign force.

I doubt if Israel[ russia] had a vote on occupied land or took it by force you would be asking that palesitine[ ukraine] respects this and does not try to “retake” the land that is theirs but instead it looks for another solution instead.

Saying Putin is bonkers is not helpful but I am your analysis of the conflict is at odds with the facts.

FWIW I agree peace will only come from negotiation but very few countries would negotiate with foreign insurgents who stole parts of their country.

not supplying massively advanced technical weapons systems to nutters

Why are those who live in Eastern Ukraine and don’t want to be under the control of Kiev “nutters” ?

the ‘intercept’ tape aparrently refers to kazaks, and there is a large ethnic Ukrainian but russian sympathetic population in Kazakhstan.

The audio refers to Cossacks (??????), not Kazakhs (??????). You’re misunderstanding and then making stuff up.

Why are those who live in Eastern Ukraine and don’t want to be under the control of Kiev “nutters” ?

Come on Ernie. They’re all permanently pissed on vodka brewed in old shoes. Everyone gets a bit lairy when they’ve been drinking meths for a week

Are we having a sweep on when Russia pro-russian militias start a massive military onslaught to distract attention from this unfortunate shooting down an airliner business then? I’m going for 2 o clock this afternoon

Most observers consider russia [ and russian nationals who live in the Ukraine]…negotiate with foreign insurgents who stole parts of their country.

You’ve found yourself painted into a weird corner where on one hand you think that Crimea is part of Ukraine but on the other hand the insurgents are just “Russian nationals who live in the [sic] Ukraine” and “foreign insurgents”.

Just had confirmation my good friend that neither he nor any of his friends an family where aboard. He said he had a friend who overflew Ukraine two days ago and his cousin and family where booked on the same MH flight AMS to KL today. Very strange feeling to be so glad it’s not someone you know but a the same time there are 295 casualties

Just stating facts 😉

Come on Ernie. They’re all permanently pissed on vodka brewed in old shoes

I see.

Are we having a sweep on when Russia pro-russian militias ..

I don’t know why but there appears to be the belief held by some that no one in Ukraine is pro-Russian, and that anyone who is must actually be Russian.

The last time a unified Ukraine had a presidential election, one which was recognised as free and fair, the Ukraine people elected a pro-Russian.

Perhaps some people should delve into the history of Ukraine with maybe some focus in different experiences between east and west. Perhaps even why it’s called Ukraine.

and other media are going on about the exact numbers of american and english and dutch people who where on the plane, sadly nothing about the malaysians who have died.

Totally pathetic coverage so far.

A news agency presents its news in the way thats most relevant to its audience – a european news channel will focus on the information most relevant to a european audience because there will be people in that audience who need to know how that story effects them directly – a malaysian agency will focus on the aspects most relevant to a malaysian audience. The reason they’ll mention the number of UK citizens involved in an international incident is because there are two stories – one of the event itself and one that the viewer might have a personal involvement in.

The discussion of numbers of UK /european /US passengers on our news channels is because there were people like me who were were waiting to find out whether relatives had died on that flight. Five minutes ago I found out he didn’t, but he was on the same route one, same airline, same airspace but just one flight ahead. However his friends and colleagues that he was travelling to meet were on the downed plane. But we knew to take note of the story because the news coverage described the nationality, professions, and destination event of the passengers involved, if it hadn’t we wouldn’t have known that this story was relevant to us.

You mean like when Ukraine secured its independence from Russia ?

Ok, i’ll bite.

Ukraine securing independance from Russia is like India securing Independance from Britain.

Donetsk securing independance from Ukraine is like the London Borough of Southall tring to break away from Britain.

This isn’t the 1930s any more Ernie. You don’t have to proove your socialist credentials by supporting the Soviet regime at any price.

If the UK governmented want to re-establish the empire and had Putin’s territorial ambitions you would be amongst the first to express your disgust.

Stop acting smug and presenting half truths and twisted facts to justify your Putin fanboism. Its getting boring.

you think that Crimea is part of Ukraine

The Autonomous Republic of Crimea (Ukrainian: ????????? ?????????? ????, Avtonomna Respublika Krym; Russian: ?????????? ?????????? ????, Avtonomnaya Respublika Krym; Crimean Tatar: Q?r?m Muhtar Cumhuriyeti)[2] is internationally viewed as an autonomous republic of Ukraine, located in the Crimean Peninsula. It is currently subject to a territorial dispute between Ukraine and the Russian Federation, which administers the territory as one of its federal districts. Population: 1,965,177 (2013 population estimate)[3].

“Russian nationals who live in the [sic] Ukraine” and “foreign insurgents”.

Its possible to live somewhere and still be a foreign national as these are not mutually exclusive. I think all but the most pedantic would agree that Russian forces or people loyal to russia are the ones doing this so o think the description [ though garbled] is reasonable].

I don’t know why but there appears to be the belief held by some that no one in Ukraine is pro-Russian, and that anyone who is must actually be Russian.

I’m not questioning that Ernie. Thats no doubt true. I was commenting on the ridiculous charade that the ‘militias’ aren’t largely made up of Russian troops, and tooled up to the teeth with Russian hardware?

I mean… come on… seriously? … is there anyone who actually believes it? Especially this morning? Whoever could these mysterious gentleman be? Whose uniforms bare the slightly faded signs of recently removed russian insignia. It truly is mystifying

When the big hitters get involved these threads taken on the look of written masturbation.

I’m standing by Putin is bonkers and if this plane had been full of Americans Moscow would now be a big whole in the ground.

Stop acting smug and presenting half truths and twisted facts to justify your Putin fanboism. Its getting boring.

It’s stuff like that that reduces what could be a reasonable debate into a pointless point scoring game. Shame.

I think all but the most pedantic would agree that Russian forces or people loyal to russia are the ones doing this so o think the description [ though garbled] is reasonable].

I just think it’s interesting you that you are trying to paint them as Russian nationals that just so happen to live in Ukraine and “foreign insurgents”, but not really people that have a right to live there.

Good luck konabunny.

I was commenting on the ridiculous charade that the ‘militias’ aren’t largely made up of Russian troops

They aren’t, though. They’re mostly just a bunch of yokels and halfwits.

Putin isn’t trying to fight a ground war in Ukraine: Russia has had ongoing wars for 25 years. They have an extremely battle-hardened military that spent the last decade pouring oil money into weapons and making conscripts peripheral. Ukraine is trying to rustle up a national guard to prop up a rickety military. If Russia actually wanted to battle the Ukrainian army, it would crush them in a matter of hours – and then provoke an international response.

It’s much better for Putin to deniably make trouble for the Kyiv regime by supplying a bunch of local gangsters and allowing a few inept numpties to run amok in Eastern Ukraine for a whole: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/15/separatist-fighter-russia-eastern-ukraine-interview . It’s cheap, too!

There are a few professionals on the ground, but when it suits Putin he can just pull the plug. The pros will slip home and the locals will get killed, convicted or do a runner.

Sky news contact one of the friends of someone who died via twitter;

Friend posts:
I lost a great friend, a wonderful professional comrade & the world lost a fantastic man 🙁 RIP Glenn Thomas

10 minutes later:
I am sorry to hear about the death of your friend. Would you feel up to speaking to Sky News about him?

I guess it’s how they work but seems a tad insensitive to me.

It’s a small world – I saw a friend on fb commenting on someone else (who they thought might have been on the flight but was actually on a later one) but that person did know someone who was on the flight.

I guess it’s how they work but seems a tad insensitive to me.

@wwaswas – at least a Murdoch news company isn’t try to hack his phone eh ?

Putin is just copying what the West has done in regions it wants to destabilise for years, arm the locals, send in a few deniable SF troops to lend a bit of support. Sit back wait for chaos.

Works very well

Ukraine did a pretty good job of destabilising itself, what with the 23 years of kleptocracy and crony capitalism up to this point.

@nickc – I don’t think the West has been arming people with surface to air missiles. Military advisers yes, special forces yes, automatic rifles yes, explosives yes. Not missiles.

Could be a Western world plot to make Russia look bad.

As an aside I don’t think anyone will be showing their left wing credentials by supporting Russia, its one of the most right wing capitalist countries there is.

I don’t think the West has been arming people with surface to air missiles.

Mujahideen. Stingers (after they realised the British Blowpipe was a piece of merde).

Instantly decreased the threat of the MI-24 Hind gunship.

Russians were consequently booted out of Afghan.

@pimpmaster – sorry I should have been more accurate, yes the West has given smaller handheld weapons to attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft. Interestingly these handheld units have batteries and other components that expire after 12-18 months so the weapons have a limited lifespan without specialist maintenance.

What I was speaking of was high altitude missiles.

You can’t have large swathes of a country just deciding they want to break away.

What, like Scotland? 😉

sorry I should have been more accurate, yes the West has given smaller handheld weapons to attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft.

I did guess that. There was an element of pedantry there too. 😉

Could be a Western world plot to make Russia look bad.

I don’t think they need any help really. And look bad in the eyes of whom? Does the tufty-tufty shark wrestler look like he gives a **** what anyone outside Russia thinks? He’s got 70%+ approval ratings at home (read that and weep Obama!). Thats the only audience he’s interested in playing too

Jambalaya, I’m ready to believe/accept some of those in eastern Ukraine are probably (up until v recently) ex Ukraininan military personnel. I don’t find it surprising or unlikely that there are bits of sophisticated kit in the area that were part of the Ukarian armed forces, and its not a surprise or unexpected that there are people within the separatist/militia that know who to use them.

@nick, the pro-Russian rebels posted a picture of their surface to air missiles, shot down a high flying, slow moving Ukrainian cargo plane two days ago and posted on twitter they had shot down another cargo plane yesterday before deleting the tweet. It’s common knowledge the Russians have been supplying the rebels and probably fighting alongside them. I think the “captured kit” and conspiracy theories that somehow the Ukrainians have done this to draw the West in are pretty unlikely to the extent we can discount them. The rebels don’t have any aircraft so the pro-Ukrainian forces have no need to shoot at planes.

I don’t find it surprising or unlikely that there are bits of sophisticated kit in the area that were part of the Ukarian armed forces, and its not a surprise or unexpected that there are people within the separatist/militia that know who to use them.

What jambalaya said basically. Retreating military forces might, if they really were in a hurry, leave a few tanks or whatever, like in Iraq. I very much doubt they’d leave, in a fully functioning condition, surface to air missile batteries, with the massively sophisticated radar equipment to operate it, so you could take out an airliner at 32,000 ft, or your own aircraft flying considerably lower

Any military force worthy of the name would do the same thing. If they couldn’t take it with them, they’d blow the thing to ****ing pieces to put it out of action. You don’t just happen upon that type of hardware. So the whole idea it was captured, or found, is absolutely ridiculous, really. Theres only one place that kind of kit has come from.

I doubt if Israel[ russia] had a vote on occupied land or took it by force you would be asking that palesitine[ ukraine] respects this and does not try to “retake” the land that is theirs but instead it looks for another solution instead.

+1

Your posts in this thread have served to strengthen my opinion about your views on Israel Ernie.

binners – Member

You don’t just happen upon that type of hardware. So the whole idea it was captured, or found, is absolutely ridiculous, really. Theres only one place that kind of kit has come from.

eBay, of course!!

There was one on the classifieds on here last week. Wrong sized wheels though apparently, so no takers 😉

Perhaps some people should delve into the history of Ukraine with maybe some focus in different experiences between east and west. Perhaps even why it’s called Ukraine.

Yeah all these dirty Ukrainians wanting to break away and form their own state with the help of a large international player. I bet it’s a Zionist Jew conspiracy.

Any military force worthy of the name would do the same thing.

We’re still talking about the Ukrainian military, right? The one that sent armoured vehicles into a town only for the residents to seize them and half of the servicemen to defect? The one that failed to stop a lightly armed insurgency rising from under their noses?

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/insurgents-in-kramatorsk-in-armored-personnel-carriers-fly-russian-flag-live-update-343745.html

Big chunks of the Ukrainian military didn’t retreat, they defected or just abandoned base.

Will I have time to get this in if Russia hits the nuclear button/everything escalates?