It hurts. It really bloody hurts.

Yes, it is.

Ok, I’ll take your word for it. You’ve still failed to provide an example of anything that needs changing, which suggests to me they’ve got it right.

You can’t do both those things.
But for what it’s worth things may have changed considerably since i was last busy here, but i would often see racist / xenophobic comments here and either get caught in discussion with mods or report it, only to have the comments stand, excused by weasel words.
I really have no desire to search through post to find examples of offensive terminology just to get caught up in semantic arguments or excuses.

Fair play Rachel.

I am with scotroutes, I don’t think this forum has become anymore offensive. Plenty of posters have said offensive things for years through basic lack of knowledge in the subject that they discussing, clumsy and thoughtless phrasing, or simply because they want to.

What has changed is that there is a wide ranging debate in society about gender and as you would expect that is then picked up here. Obviously this is a debate about something which is closer to your heart than probably anyone else on here and therefore there is a strong likelihood when confronted by opposing views you will find that deeply upsetting.

In a perfect world we would all listen to and be respectful of each others viewpoints, but unfortunately many are incapable of this because in their view, there is nothing to debate, everything is settled. We are all guilty of this to an extent.

Other than banning threads on certain sensitive subjects, I can’t see what STW can do as I think it is too much to expect them to moderate everything.

Saying that a poster’s opinion is ‘utter nonsense’ is caustic, corrosive and unpleasant. Those words are completely dismissive, and they can only be said to dismiss the contribution and belittle the contributor. Which makes people defensive and upset. I don’t want to live in a world (or use a forum) where everyone is dismissing each other all the time.

Thanks Molgrips – I thought that illustrated my point pretty well!

Remember for every arseohle, there is a good person. the arseholes just stand out more.

I’d like to think there are multiple good guys for every arsehole, but the arseholes are more vocal.
All the best to Rachel – you’re one of the people who make this forum a better place and I suspect you’re the same in RealLife.

is ‘flounce’ a comment designed to belittle

I’m not sure. Doesn’t it just mean “Person publicly leaving a forum”??? Maybe I should report my post and see what the mods do. If I’m still here tonight it’s kosher.

I’m not sure. Doesn’t it just mean “Person publicly leaving a forum”???

It implies a melodramatic exit in a camp or effete way. Which could also be a bit homophobic.

Just goes to show how ingrained negative behaviour is when people don’t even know they are doing it.

Maybe I should report my post and see what the mods do. If I’m still here tonight it’s kosher.

Bit draconian – maybe send yourself the handbags gif and even it out?

This has all rather passed me by I’m afraid – but I have noticed two things recently:

An increase in threads started about divisive topics with (it seems) the sole intention to start an argument.

An increase in the number of posters (or maybe just the number of posts?) who seem to post some stupid/outrageous shit. Maybe this is trolling, and they just get a kick out of riling people up – but I’m inclined to think that there is a trend at present for people with fringe views to feel emboldened to spout aformentionned stupid/outrageous shit, and demand that we all take their view seriously.

My own view is that this place is tolerant and friendly – but with the less tolerant and friendly voices somehow being louder recently. Maybe the rest of us with more informed/liberal viewpoint need to be more visible

Moderation on here (and everywhere else I suppose) is highly subjective, it’s a series of judgement calls. We let something slide, we’re accused of being too lenient; we delete something and we’re too draconian; different moderators do different things and we’re inconsistent or biased. There’s an element here of damned if we do and damned if we don’t, so we simply strive to do the best we can. We don’t always get it right, but we try.

Censorship is a tricksy thing, and something I’m not a huge fan of. As soon as you start removing controversial opinions it’s a slippery slope, where do you draw the line? Either you allow pretty much anything or you ban everything, any middle ground is where personal bias inevitably has to creep in. I can’t comment for the rest of the team but generally when I see something I’m not sure about I’ll err on the side of leaving it be unless someone reports it.

On That Thread yesterday I could have either started deleting posts with gay abandon as a moderator, or engage and challenge as a user. I chose the latter because I see nothing to be gained from brushing things under the carpet, but calling someone out might just make them (or other readers) reconsider their viewpoint. Optimistic and naive perhaps I know, and in hindsight it might not have been the correct call, but that was my thought process.

Rachel, I’m sorry if the discussion yesterday upset you. I’ve never met you but from your posts here you seem like an awesome person who has been through a lot. Some folk don’t seem to realise that when they’re frantically bashing away at their keyboards they’re actually talking about real people, they could do to remember that.

I quite like the pinkbike up/down vote system

 gay abandon

See – you just can’t help yourself…

It implies a melodramatic exit in a camp or effete way. Which could also be a bit homophobic.

You know, I never interpreted it like that at all, beyond the ‘melodramatic’ bit. “hey everyone, look at me, I’m leaving, don’t try and stop me. I said, DON’T TRY AND STOP ME! Uh, anyone?” sort of thing.

It implies a melodramatic exit in a camp or effete way.

You can be camp and/or effete if you’re heterosexual too, ya know!

Firstly, I can’t stand people being mistreated. I think you have faced a lot of insensitivity and negativity which isn’t right.

I agree that the forum needs to consider where it goes. Sometimes the place is fantastically supportive – grief, mental health and relationship issues are genenerally treated with a lot of empathy. Sometimes though…

I do heartily believe that some people now feel that they don’t have to be ‘politically correct’ anymore – or as I prefer to think, behaving in a considerate, respectful and decent way towards others. That’s not just here but everywhere. That we need to challenge and push against everywhere.

Sorry to hear this Rachel. You are consistently one of the good eggs on this forum.

I have definitely noticed a sharp rise in the gender politics threads that often border on incel / Turning Point / Shapiro / Peterson / Yiannopoulos “alt-right” rhetoric, often quoting those sources in fact, but like others I’ve been guilty of just ignoring those threads because I know the arguments they’ll contain and I really just can’t be bothered with them.

Plus it often feels like “white knighting” to be arguing from my safe middle-aged white male hetero cis-gendered position (something I’ve been correctly pulled up for by @CharlieMungus and others in the past) so I tend to stay out of it.

Rachel – your absence has been noticed and to be honest you have only confirmed what I already suspected.

Everyone else – this isn’t her problem, it’s our problem. Do we want this to be somewhere that allows trolling and negativity because “censorship” or somewhere that the people who positively contribute are made to feel welcome? Telling people to just ignore it is not the answer and frankly I’m surprised at those who have said as much. I didn’t see anyone being told to ignore the anti semitic abuse they encounter in the real world or Cougars misjudged use of the n-word so why is this different? The main thing I have noticed on here is a toxic lack of empathy in debate. For a forum predominately composed of middle aged plus folk it is remarkably childish in the way it conducts itself. There are ways and means of expressing yourself that don’t have to resort to belittling or insulting your opponent and similarly there are ways and means of framing a debate without causing offence, deliberate or otherwise. And if you do fall foul of that who is at fault? Take responsibility for what you say and if you don’t like the result then consider what you should do to change that.

Mods – where do you draw the line? Personally I’d say its where self censorship fails or people can’t be trusted to do that. Look at the forum ethos posted and use that as a windsock, if it crosses the line then nudge, if the nudge doesn’t work push and finally if that doesn’t work then moderate. Adjust approach as per previous behaviour. Sadly the adage of “nothing has ever been resolved by arguing on the Internet” holds true so frankly that approach is a non starter.

As others have said this place can be toxic at times.

I’ve seen forum users that seem to gang up on certain posters and almost bully them into leaving.

Do we want this to be somewhere that allows trolling and negativity because “censorship” or somewhere that the people who positively contribute are made to feel welcome? …The main thing I have noticed on here is a toxic lack of empathy in debate.

Unfortunately, this very post is already contradictory. Too many folk on here see any opinion other than their own as”trolling” purely down to that same lack of empathy, and “positively contribute” is basically the same as “agree with me”.

As an example, the Brexit thread covers the whole spectrum. There are/were obvious trolls and they can be easily dismissed by not engaging. Whereas there is someone like Mefty, whose opinions I happen to disagree with, but I’m glad he contributes a his responses are considered and measured. Some still call him out as a troll, though I think it’s still useful to hear both sides of the argument.

Unfortunately, this very post is already contradictory.

Not really, for the sensible reasons you have given. It’s not so much contradictory as opposed to its definitions being open to abuse by the aformentioned general childish conduct.

I’m not advocating concensus or the stifling of debate or opinion, I’m proposing that the forum, as a whole, should be more considerate in the way it expresses itself.

Couple of points further occur to me.

the posting on Gender / sexuality / equal rights stuff comes mainly from a very small number of posters who continually raise these things in what is IMO a very offensive way. However its not an individual post that is offensive – its the continually drip drip drip of repeat postings. Report a post and nothing is done – ‘cos in isolation the post is not that offensive. Call them out on it and get warned by the mods for showing your contempt for the poster. I got a warning for “bullshine and you know it” in response to some IMO foul assertions on a gender / sexuality thread. Again the single post I was objecting to was not so bad, the continual cumulative effect is abhorrent.

I don’t know what the mods can do about this cumulative effect – very hard to moderate. Maybe the culprits should join me on my shoogly peg. I don’t think its unreasonable that those like me who have caused offence in the past are in effect on a final warning continuously

The other point is positive. 2 or 3 posters I have argued with a lot and that I don’t have a lot of time for in general have made some very good posts and showed a lot of empathy and compassion. Thats a positive to me and reminds me its not all black and white

I feel really bad that you’ve had this experience Rachel. I’ve been aware of your posts for years and always found them valuable and I feel ashamed that you’ve had to actually post a thread to highlight this. you are absolutely correct that the forum users need to have a careful look how they use remarks, even if entirely innocent.
other than emploring people to think before they type I’m unsure what to do.
we are all people into bikes and gender, race and colour shouldn’t matter one bit.

Please tell me what remotely trans-phobic comment I’ve ever made.

I do have an issue, specificaclly with third wave feminism and in part because of the TERF issues that arise from that, but I am entirely unapologetic in my criticism of and challenge to the false truths pedalled by that doctrine, specifically the ideas summer up by the term patriarchy.

But trans rights, trans issue and the general acceptance of anyone with gender dysphoria is a subject extremnely close to my heart and one I feel very passionately about. To have it suggested that I have upset you Rachel by being trans phobic is not something I can accept. But if you are upset because of my criticism of feminism, then that’s just something we would have to sit down over a meal and a drink and talk about civilly and respectfully.

Rachel, I’m sorry if the discussion yesterday upset you. I’ve never met you but from your posts here you seem like an awesome person who has been through a lot.

I completely agree with this and also think Cougar, Scotroutes and Molgrips make good points. It’s important to hear different view points on any subject and unfortunately some of these views will be upsetting at times. One of the things about living in a democracy.

However if the views aren’t expressed in the first place how do you challenge them, how do you change a mindset if not through debate, education and reasoning? Those that are trolling just need to be ignored (easier said than done at times) and reported if necessary.

allthegear, don’t waste anger or sadness on those that offend. You know who you are and that is all that matters.

Saying that a poster’s opinion is ‘utter nonsense’ is caustic, corrosive and unpleasant.

Corrosive? Heavens to murgatroyd…

I still think you win the best username contest.
Matt

Please tell me what remotely trans-phobic comment I’ve ever made.

As I said earlier, AFAIK GT has never made a negative comment about LGBT issues, so I not sure what he has said that has upset the OP so much?

Firstly I’ve been around here in one form or another since the very early days of this forum, and over that time it has changed massively from a small group of like minded bike enthusiasts to the huge monster that i is today.

Secondly, I think the mods do a fantastic job of ‘policing’ the site and wouldn’t want their job for all the tea in China.

However as with all things as the site grows inevitably so does the cross section of society, and within this you will get elements that feel the ‘need’ to be controversial either sexually, racially, politically or some other …..ally…. And along with thids there is a need to ‘sensationalise’ their views ie need to be heard (often to mask their own problems and insecurities).

Now the mods are never going to catch all of these so sometimes people need to just let their comments pass you by……..The best thing you can do is completely ignore their comments as penny to a pound they are trying to incite responses and by not getting them irks and annoys them far more than anyone else……

Gobuchal
Constant low level misogyny?

the false truths pedalled by that doctrine, specifically the ideas summer up by the term patriarchy.

for example – thats opinion on a subject he appears to me to know little about and can have no experience of stated as fact and a fairly offensive opinion IMO at that.

This thread has me conflicted.

On one hand I feel that this place shouldn’t make anyone feel like that.

On the other hand I think we should be very careful about trying to censor or gag people on certain subjects. Correct me if I am wrong but nothing has been aimed directly at Rachel and part of me thinks that if that’s the case then should we be planning a forum re-write of the rules just because someone was offended?

Rachel, if you are still following this thread. Please don’t let these topics get you down. Its just someone expressing their opinion on the internet. You are not going to be able to avoid this subject everywhere you go, its getting more and more in the public eye. Some people will be very respectful in expressing there opinions, others will be dicks about it.

Constant low level misogyny?

TJ – Granted. I have had plenty of disagreements with him, some people considered I was way too harsh.
However, as you state “low level”, I don’t see how the JP bollox that he spouts could bring someone to tears.

its the constant drip drip drip perhaps?
IIRC Racheal was referring to a post by alpin that reduced her to tears

the false truths pedalled by that doctrine, specifically the ideas summer up by the term patriarchy.

That’s hate speech? I 100pc support the mods in not removing that, perfectly reasonably decision.

Constant low level misogyny?

Firstly I am not a misogynist, not in my opinion, not in my wife’s opinion and not in the opinion of any of my female friends and colleagues of which I have many and of whom I have solicited an opinion. Of course that doesn’t mean anything other than they and I all disagree with your view TJ but that’s OK.

Secondly, my issue with feminism has little or nothing to do with trans rights or indeed LGBT rights. Indeed, quite the opposite when trans exclusionary radical feminism is one of the reasons I have a problem with ‘third wave’ feminism, specifically those ideas that seem to regard all outcomes between men and women as being the product of an oppressive patriarchy. I reject that and I tend to use empirical data to support my argument. If you find that offensive, that’s your problem but as I’ve said before, I always liked you and I do respect you TJ.

Thirdly, I have an undergraduate degree in cultural anthropology which included one year of feminist studies and took in many notable works around feminist theory and thought, so I know at least a little about the subject.

Fourthly I know you don’t like Jordan Peterson and think what he says is incorrect but again, that’s OK, we’re meant to disagree. Just keep in mind that he is highly respected by a great many other highly educated and respected thinkers.

Peterson is not respected by any respected thinkers. He is a pedlar of noxious philosophy. He is a pariah in the academic world

the bit I quoted was you making an (at best controversial) statement of opinion as a fact on a subject you have no experience of and apparently little understanding of.

Once again your postings make me utterly infuriated so I have to back off because otherwise I will be banned and of course its taking this thread away from the point. But take note you have been called out by many on here for your views, you create great upset by continually espousing them but you continue to do so seemingly uncaring about he upset you cause. Please just drop any comments about gender. Just stop.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think geetee1972 is sexist. I think he has an analytical and inquisitive mine, and is completely tone deaf. He thinks about things, and starts a discussion from an academic point of view and completely misses how it is likely to be received on an internet forum.

Just my opinion, not that I know the chap particularly well.

Please just drop any comments about gender. Just stop.

Respectfully, no. The moment we stop debating important issues for fear of someone being upset is the moment that free speech dies and tyranny takes over. I will never bow to that.

So you are happy to keep on upsetting people? to be constantly called out for your posts? really? You think your right to be heard means the upset you cause is OK?

Wow

I think all people are doign geetee1972 is suggesting that you choosing stw as the hill you’ll die on for the cause of your freedom to say what you want might not be in the best interests of the community as a whole.

The problem that we are having is that your desire to force the discussion on stw is causing other forum users to feel uncomfortable being here.

Frankly, stw is a tyranny already – Mark has complete control over the content he publishes – so if you’ll not accept a tyranny then you ought not to post on here at all. There are no doubt forums where the type of discussion you require is both expected and welcome but, to me, stw is increasingly not one of them and you continually trying to make it so is becoming the loud bore in the pub, you’re generally welcome and tolerated but sometimes you need to be reminded there are other customers who may not wanting your views shouted across the room for the whole evening.