It hurts. It really bloody hurts.

Whilst I would not want to defend any of the more bigoted or spiteful posts that have been made, I do often feel that several people on here are genuinely confused re sex, sexuality, gender,… etc. The whole area is relatively new and whilst some people have been dealing with the issues for all their lives, many are only now beginning to consider them. I have seen posted “go and read about it”, but sometimes I think people need to talk things through with others. It may take time to see the change people want/expect, but things will progress.
(Yesterday there was a hoo-hah about the use of an offensive word. When I was young you would hear that word daily, it has taken decades for that change.)

Are we excluding the excluders then?

What do you think?

Rachel, you’ve mentioned that you are trans in the past and, to be honest, it does not bear any relevance to how I would respond, Internet or f2f. One treats everyone with dignity and respect. Keyboard warriors who want to win the Internet should just be pitied and ignored.

And this is definitely not a microcosm of society! It is a microcosm of middle aged, mainly male ABC1’s with an overly healthy professional interest in IT, who like riding bikes. Sometimes off road.

I always read your insightful comments and can tell the conviction with which you write.

If people are deliberately setting out to discriminate or upset others they should banned for a month. Repeat offenders get a permanent ban.

Gender issues are a minefield and for some, difficult to comprehend. That does not excuse them from being a dick though. Life is simple, treat others they way you want to be treated.

 the nearest I get is reading the comments under Youtube videos, which I find absolutely shocking. I simply can’t believe the trash that people post, the hatred, the venom, the spite.

And this place is a veritable haven of considered and reflective posting by comparison.

FWIW I think the mods and STWers have got it about right. On ‘Trans’ issues we are 10,000,000 times more woke than Mumsnet.

If people see posts that are personal, abusive or break the rules we all need to hit the report button.

Why should it be upon the forum to work out what it needs to do? , have comments been made directly to yourself ?

The list of excuses and justifications from those who perpetuate these microaggressions, in race, in gender identity , in sexual orientation is long and you can never tie them down. There is always a loophole of some sort which turns the offence back on the the offended or the complainant. Not coincidentally, the perpetrators are often straight white males who enjoy a privileged position sin society, for whom the greatest discrimination experienced is to be called privileged.
I spent a lot of effort on here calling out racism or cultural insensitivity when i saw it, not once do i remember anyone recognising that what they said might not be OK, and only once did someone accept that they might change their behaviour in certain circumstances. The mods have not been supportive on occasion posting racially insensitive material themselves.

If people see posts that are personal, abusive or break the rules we all need to hit the report button.

how about a reconsideration of the rules?

ransos

Subscriber
What do you think?

I think I asked you a question and didn’t get an answer

Yesterday there was a hoo-hah about the use of an offensive word. When I was young you would hear that word daily, it has taken decades for that change.

where was that?

Firstly I find your contributions valuable. You have taught me things about trans issues I needed to know. There are complexities in that the needs and rights of different vulnerable people can appear to be mutually exclusive ie woman’s refuges. However one thing you showed me was that I do not know enough to have an informed opinion so I tend to stay out of these debates

On moderation there has been a clampdown and one effect of this is it makes it harder to call people out for nasty posts. I was warned for calling someone out recently and because of my history on here I will always be on a shortly peg and this makes me reluctant to call people out as I seem unable to do so without falling foul of the mods

Report the posts Rachel and don’t give up on us please

Some people are dicks unfortunately, and recently seem to be abusing freedom of speech, to justify continuing being a dick.
I know it’s easy for someone else to say Rachel, but all you can do ignore it (I know you shouldn’t have to) and carry on.

Whilst I would not want to defend any of the more bigoted or spiteful posts that have been made, I do often feel that several people on here are genuinely confused re sex, sexuality, gender,… etc. The whole area is relatively new and whilst some people have been dealing with the issues for all their lives, many are only now beginning to consider them.

Really? What’s to be confused about? Just because someone can’t imagine feeling a particular way about their own gender/sexuality/whatever shouldn’t prevent them from understanding that someone else does feel that way. Nobody has a problem with people asking questions to try and understand something – the issue is using dismissive/derogatory terms that make people feel bad or excluded.

I’m really sorry that Rachel is upset about all the trans posts on here however being “woke” and accepting everything the TRA’s say is not canon. There are debates to be had especially about gender recognition, self id, transgenders in sport etc.

You don’t have to accept the “born in the wrong body” mantra to be kind, accepting and understanding of the no doubt invidious position of transgendered people.

I’ll admit to having read threads and posts by the usual suspects you list in your post (rene59, technicallyinept and geetee in particular) and thought “what does Rachel think about this?”. I doubt they realise that ther are trans people using the forum, but more scarily I don’t think they care.

Rachel,

I’m sorry if anything I’ve posted has upset you.

I am concerned at:
– the level of hatred directed at gender critical women on social media (twitter especially)
– the sports situation (especially in youth sports e.g. Andrea Yardwood),
– real (not literal) violence when women want to meet (bombs threats, masked protesters),
– twitter bans/suspensions for people (including transsexuals) for such wrongthink as quoting the definition of rape in UK law etc etc.
– the ‘transing’ of confused kids (many of which would grow up to be gay)

I cannot believe you support this either.

Anyone who thinks I’m anti trans, you are deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying.

how about a reconsideration of the rules?

Why not? What new rule would you suggest?

wrongthink

Your duckspeak is ungood.

What some middle aged muppets on a bike forum say is a shit metric by which to measure your worth

you are deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying.

or maybe what you’re saying isn’t what you think you’re saying?

You only have to glance through the thread Rachel refers to in her OP to see that there are some on here as thick as the average Youtube commenter..

Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society. As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.

Utter nonsense, this place is incredibly liberal, open and inclusive. If I walk away from my desk and up to the mechy workshop*, within 5 minutes I’ll have heard some form of racism, gay jibes or other nonsense, this place is nothing like that.

In general, society is way more tolerant than it’s ever been, but you get the odd dick here and there, fact of life I’m afraid.

*Thankfully, these kinda attitudes are dying out, but they’re still about.

As it appears my presence and contributions here cause more upset to others than any entertainment I get from being here, I’ll delete my account and stop posting. I believe anyone should be free to live life how they want to and be safe doing so, but that way of life cannot be allowed to disadvantage others doing the same without meaningful and proper discussion taking place first. If some people get upset by that discussion then that’s another issue. Adieu, farewell, titty bye etc etc.

should we have a sweepstake?

Why not? What new rule would you suggest?

I would suggest the following is more clearly defined as a rule rather than an ethos

The ethos of this forum must be one of mutual respect for everyone who uses it.

and some clearer operationalisaton of

when the argument becomes heated or abuse begins to creep in, then you will have crossed the line. If you don’t step back from it then you will likely be moderated.

which appears to allow abuse, so long you step back. Also, why only ‘likely’?

you are deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying.

or maybe what you’re saying isn’t what you think you’re saying?

Such as? Though maybe this thread is not the place, perhaps someone would like to start another personal attack thread.

Whilst I would not want to defend any of the more bigoted or spiteful posts that have been made, I do often feel that several people on here are genuinely confused re sex, sexuality, gender,… etc. The whole area is relatively new and whilst some people have been dealing with the issues for all their lives, many are only now beginning to consider them. I have seen posted “go and read about it”, but sometimes I think people need to talk things through with others. It may take time to see the change people want/expect, but things will progress.

I’m going to out myself here, in more ways than one. My youngest (12yo) is having severe gender identity issues and we are part of the way down the process of a FTM transition. I personally don’t really know how I feel about this other than i love them dearly and will do anything to protect them. Rachel has provided some sage advice already and i know I can turn to her again at any time, and I’m saddened if she feels she is not welcome here. I too have read some stuff recently on here and thought whether I need to step away.

I’ll also out myself in the sense that even as someone who has inevitably read and spoken to more sources about this than i suspect many on here, I still haven’t much of a clue about navigating my way in this area without causing offence, but I also think I can spot someone who ‘doesn’t know better’ and someone whose intent is to stir shit up. And I think some on here fall into that category, I’m afraid.

I would suggest the following is more clearly defined as a rule rather than an ethos The ethos of this forum must be one of mutual respect for everyone who uses it.

I’m all for that, care to offer an example of something that has been allowed in the (say) the brain thread that would break a ‘rule’ version of “showing mutual respect”. (The deleted stuff already breaks the rules and is gone.) If that became a rule the political threads would go, which would be a good thing IMHO.

which appears to allow abuse, so long you step back. Also, why only ‘likely’?

I’m all in favour of that. Abuse is wrong and should be reported and removed. I think you’d be hard pushed to find instances of reported abuse that haven’t been removed. Maybe we’re all a bit slow in reporting stuff.

Here was me thinking the thread title was going to be about some of the things Rachael has mentioned in the past…..

There are lots of opinions on here I find offensive but that doesn’t mean they should be shut down or closed off.

It’s the same away from the internet too, no matter who you are you’re always going to hear things you don’t like or upset you at some point in life. It might sound harsh but you just need to learn to deal with that and ignore it.

If you can’t do that you’re just going to waste your life getting upset about things that are out of your control!

I’m all in favour of that. Abuse is wrong and should be reported and removed. I think you’d be hard pushed to find instances of reported abuse that haven’t been removed. Maybe we’re all a bit slow in reporting stuff.

lots of the racism stuff
abusive terminology, abusive language

lots of the racism stuff
abusive terminology, abusive language

You haven’t provided any examples. Find me something racist, I’ll report it, I bet it’s gone by tomorrow.

If you want rule changes you really need to be specific. It sounds to me like the stuff you’d ban is already banned.

“Adieu, farewell, titty bye etc etc.”

Some good has come out of this already .

I’m not really on here enough anymore to suss it, but I’m assuming rene59 used to be on here under a different alias?

Anyway seems like he’s flouncing, sincerely feel free to never come back! Your posts have caught my eyes over the last few weeks as bigoted, racist and narrow-minded. You’ll not be missed.

You haven’t provided any examples. Find me something racist, I’ll report it, I bet it’s gone by tomorrow.

It’s been a while, but it wasn’t when i reported it. Perhaps you have more influence

I was not aware you were Trans, and it should not matter, i simply thought you were a cool lady that rode motorbikes and liked Morocco, both things i’ve been lucky enough to enjoy also.

So just carry on being you, ignore the idiots unless they cross a line, then report them. Unfortunately there will always be fools, and any forum whatever it is based around, from mountain biking to knitting will be a mirror on the world in parts.

I have always enjoyed your posts and you have more than most to contribute, so please keep doing so.

I also think I can spot someone who ‘doesn’t know better’

Who hopefully can be educated

and someone whose intent is to stir shit up.

I know it’s hard but they are best ignored.

There are clearly some blinkered views on the thread in question but I suspect it’s largely ignorance and a touch of arrogance perhaps, rather than malice.

Utter nonsense

“Adieu, farewell, titty bye etc etc.”

Some good has come out of this already .

Ok look. Can we just leave the casual nastiness please? On a thread condemning casual nastiness?

Saying that a poster’s opinion is ‘utter nonsense’ is caustic, corrosive and unpleasant. Those words are completely dismissive, and they can only be said to dismiss the contribution and belittle the contributor. Which makes people defensive and upset. I don’t want to live in a world (or use a forum) where everyone is dismissing each other all the time.

Likewise the snide comments about someone leaving. Not at all helpful, and it just spreads nastiness. If you make comments like this you are being part of the problem.

It’s been a while, but it wasn’t when i reported it. Perhaps you have more influence

Ok, I’ll take your word for it. You’ve still failed to provide an example of anything that needs changing, which suggests to me they’ve got it right.

I think STW mods have got it about right.

Ok, today STW has made one person on one side of a debate cry, and one person on the other side of a debate flounce. That doesn’t mean there’s a problem with the site or the modding, that’s just forums.

What has surprised me in recent weeks and months, is not just the output of the usual agitators and their crusade against women and lgbt persons, but the amount of 70’s style casual bigotry that others have injected into those threads.

Along with a defense of the agitators, by pretending that their bodies of posting history don’t exist, and trying to isolate every single post they make as the only one on the subject.

But that is IMO where modding becomes very difficult. There was, for example, one regular poster who expressed deep concerns about sex crimes, each post he made could on the face of it appear quite reasonable, and frankly when taken individually nothing to report to the mods. But, when looking at the body of his posts he only highlighted and railed against sex crimes committed by muslim migrants, he had no interest in the victims or the crimes other than to use them as a weapon against a whole group. Very hard for the mods to pick up on such things though.

is ‘flounce’ a comment designed to belittle ;-)