Issue 147: Column: What New Standards Have Been Worth It?

Maybe don’t go to the pub with Benji if you’re a bike industry engineer… Words: Benji   When I say ‘new’ I’m going to be talking about any standa …

By ben_haworth

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I like post mount callipers – easy to centre and never had an issue with them drifting out of alignment.

Beats messing about with tiny shims IMHO.

*doh, should have read the article

Came here to say post mount calipers.

Also direct mount (single) chainrings. Recent attempt to purchase a replacement set of double chainrings confirmed this.

142×12 is one of the best- since 135×12 was mostly a development of standard QR and 142 x12 was the same thing but slightly wider, you got the slight advntage- easier wheel fitting- and you got the potential for full backwards compatibility. I have DT240 hubs that are literally older than the 12mm standard, all I had to do was replace the axle.

15mm wasn’t worth it.

Dropping IS brake mounts was.

Headsets are an absolute mess.

Frames should be IS for brakes, but calipers post mount. This means all the threads are in the £5 adaptor bracket so if you screw one up, you don’t have to throw away your frame/forks.

 

XD/Micro Spline freehubs

Huh???

I don’t see why these are here at all. Your justification is for 1x drivetrains, but HG does that fine, just with an extra tooth on the smallest cog. The only XD hub i ever had was a nightmare as the tiniest speck of grit would cause the most annoying graunch. And the associated cassettes are overpriced.

An extra tooth on the smallest cog can be a big deal, though, that’s basically how you get the full wide range. I have bikes built both ways but imo the smaller cogs are what made it mainstream- useful for enough people that it could be so widely adopted. I used to have HG 11-42 single ring setups but the 10-50 lets me have a high pedalling gear AND a low end-of-day grovelling gear. (my fatbike doesn’t need a high gear so it’s fine without that range, and my dh bike doesn’t need the low gear, my #enduro bike needs both)

Agree that IS frame to PM brake is just the best way to do it. Honestly can’t see any argument to the contrary except looks and sometimes a little weight, and even then only sometimes. Puts the thread in the easily replaced part, puts the adjustment in the easily replaced part, simplifies the frame slightly, and most times you end up with an adaptor for PM-PM anyway. Doubly so for forks! I doubt anyone ever wrecked a brand new fork with an IS adaptor, I know people that have done it with too-long bolts in a PM.

Bought my son a new Vitus hardtail about a year ago. I was surprised that the frame had an IS brake mount. Not sure if it was on purpose or just a hangover from an older design.

An extra tooth on the smallest cog can be a big deal, though,

But you can get 11-50+ on HG. And if you normally run a 32t chainring and change to a 30t, well everything smells of roses.

Frames should be IS for brakes, but calipers post mount. This means all the threads are in the £5 adaptor bracket so if you screw one up, you don’t have to throw away your frame/forks.

Yes. I used to use Hayes HFXs back in the day. Could never understand why all brakes weren’t like that.

Don’t ask me, my only bike has 100/130 QR axles, 68mm threaded BB, 1 1/8 headset and canti brakes.

I am with Kerley but we have 130mm and 135mm rear spacing and disc. Gave up buying bike when they niched them.

WHICH new standards have been worth it?

I can’t read the article, but off the top of my head:

29in wheels

UDH

DM chainrings (but why-oh-why can’t there just be one fitment?)

Tapered headsets (as above)

Through-axles (as above)

31.8mm diameter handlebars

And yes, PM brakes

Most of my wheels are XD, but I’d have been happy to stick with HG. Ideally we’d all be on the same standard, whatever it was.

XD/Microspline is an interesting one.  I personally still have HG-everything, and yes you can get 11-50ish cassettes which is fine for me.

But on the other hand if I were starting from new with no existing wheels (and assuming an XD/Microspline setup costs about the same as HG), I’d sooner have a 10-50ish cassette, because why wouldn’t you?

So I find myself in the position of agreeing that XD/Microspline is better, but disagreeing that it was worth it for primarily selfish legacy reasons 🙂

For those making the very good point about PM brake threads in frames, take a look at what Nicolas (& Geometron) do; replaceable inserts with the threads, solves any issues.

But you can get 11-50+ on HG. And if you normally run a 32t chainring and change to a 30t, well everything smells of roses.

Ordinarily I’d agree with that but I’d rather save weight on my lowest gear than my chainring.

For those making the very good point about PM brake threads in frames, take a look at what Nicolas (& Geometron) do; replaceable inserts with the threads, solves any issues.

So basically a pre-fitted helicoil? Makes sense.

replaceable inserts with the threads, solves any issues.

Just make 140 mm post mount the standard then bolt an adapter to that, with the caliper bolting to the adapter, not the frame or fork.

Does flat mount not solve the threaded PM frame thing? (never having actually fitted a FM brake I might be wrong)

XD/microspline yes and no in that order, XD is an improvement over hg without a doubt, smaller sprockets, no mangled splines, lighter & open standard (granchy grit on an xd freehub isn’t a function of xd reeksy, you possibly had a duff freehub but it’s not a common feature), the lack of cross/back compatibility is a downside sure but you can’t do with hg what you can do with xd so sort of inevitable.

Microspline though adds absolutely nothing to the xd standard except a shimano license and hubs/wheels that you can’t easily change between two brands. The only thing it really brings is less consumer choice. Years late to the party and brought nothing. (and that’s not brand loyalty, the opposite would be true if Ms had landed years before xd )

Id agree microscpline/XD is pointless, very marginal gain for potential incompatibility issues & we have enough of those already

I quite like Torque caps, definitely makes it a bit easier locating the wheel if you take it out a lot, even if any stiffness benefits are all in my head

Its cumulative; 148×12 rear, tapered headsets, 15mm front axles, torque caps, 30mm rims, 36mm stanchions, OS bar &stem, my bike is way stiffer and more solid feeling, my bike of 20 years ago would be noodling itself into destruction if I rode the stuff I do now

I’m conflicted over XD/Micro Spline. On one hand I totally agree that it’s another standard and there are enough already, on the other Micro Spline has a far stronger interface. Yes, Shimano pattern freehubs can get chewed up but only if you use an already (comparatively) weak material and even then it’s hardly much work to straighten out.

Just make 140 mm post mount the standard then bolt an adapter to that, with the caliper bolting to the adapter, not the frame or fork.

But you could still strip the frame threads. With an IS mount the threads are all in the easily replacable adaptor.

@kimbers what advantage do you think a 15mm axle has over 20mm?

Sorry but I’m still a big fan of IS for at least the rear brake. I make my own frames / custom dropouts, and it is far less work to make, easier to keep aligned and is very simple to make adjustable for use with singlespeeds and hub gears.

I like direct mount chainrings, but only if they allow rotational repositioning / flipping of the ring to wear the unused quadrants. Some DM rings are dished, or have a crank arm recess / master spline that prevents that.

15mm axle has over 20mm

I’m happy with either tbh, I still have 20mm bolt thru z150s, my point was that either better than flappy qr skewers

I’m with whoever suggested frames should have IS mounts.

1) 95% of statistics are mare up on the spot and 99% of people run a post-post adapter anyway, so you gain nothing by having a post mount frame.
2) It means you can take a caliper off and re-fit it without having to sacrifice a goat to appease the howling daeomon of brake alignment.

Or just go back to shims, at least it was repeatable +/- a fraction of a mm, aligning post calipers is a constant case of nudging them back and forth and trying to hold them still while you torque them up.

Its cumulative; 148×12 rear, tapered headsets, 15mm front axles, torque caps, 30mm rims, 36mm stanchions, OS bar &stem, my bike is way stiffer and more solid feeling, my bike of 20 years ago would be noodling itself into destruction if I rode the stuff I do now

I’m not sure, looking back to ~2000 there were plenty of freeride/DH bikes running “old” standards, about the only thing that had changed since 1990 was 20mm front hubs, a lot still had QR rears. Even as late as ~2014 You could still get a Specialized Pitch with a QR rear, straight headtube, etc and geometry that would still be passable today with 29″ wheels.

73mm threaded BB (press fit sucks).
24mm BB axles
1.5” head tubes (I never really understood why everyone switched to tapered).
31.8mm handle bars (never ridden a comfortable 35mm bar).
20mm front axles (15mm wasn’t an upgrade, why go less stiff?).
12mm bolt thru rear axles.
6 bolt rotors.

Agree with Keithb bout brake mounts, IS tabs with post mount brake and adapter means you can take it off as one and put back on without faffing about re-centering.
Direct mount chainrings means having to remove cranks to change the ring but look better so I’m 50/50 on that one. The change to 15mm fork axles was pointless, especially the pre boost 100mm.

Geometry more progressive than 71/73.

granchy grit on an xd freehub isn’t a function of xd reeksy, you possibly had a duff freehub but it’s not a common feature

Perhaps it’s a function of the local geology and XD? I couldn’t diagnose the noise. LBS immediately did, as they said it was a common problem. It was so bad I would sometimes have to splash water on the back of the cassette on rides to shit it up.

Some great standards.

If we could stop **** about with seatpost sizes that’d be great.

20mm front axles (15mm wasn’t an upgrade, why go less stiff?).

15mm wasn’t ever meant as an upgrade to 20mm. It was a step up from qr (and don’t think anyone will disagree on that), iirc fox and shimano launched it very much as a competitor to rs’s 20mm with new shimano hubs that you couldn’t use on rs forks.
As it was, it replaced qr and caught on for pretty much everything else because it turns out that for once we could have an actual standard that worked for 99% of cases. Of course, no-one is happy because it wasn’t as stiff as 20*110

If we could stop **** about with seatpost sizes that’d be great.

I thought we mostly had? 30.9 and 31.6 cover most bases (if you want to be sensible, run 30.9 with a shim) and 27.2 the rest. Beats the hell out of trying to source a 26.8 for my Trailstar.

Of course, no-one is happy because it wasn’t as stiff as 20*110

But on the flipside you can run any 20mm hub as 15mm with the appropriate adaptor(s).

1.5” head tubes (I never really understood why everyone switched to tapered).

One standard too far, nobody wanted to buy new stems.

Microspline allows for replacement of individual sprockets compared to XD which requires you to replace a whole cassette. Microspline the threads are in the lock ring, not the cassette, if you cross thread it, the softer lock ring is broken, not the expensive cassette or freehub. It’s a more versatile system.

Boost – fine
Tapered forks – fine
29 – fine
Bottom brackets again seem to be settling on the English thread for both Dub and 24mm, so fine or mostly. There’s still a befuddling amount of require adaptors for shell widths.
15mm TA – fine – allows for a smaller front hub.
XD/MS/HG/Campag not really fine, but most times the cassette of a different manufacturer can work with both drivetrains.

Headsets are a bloody mess. I think there’s currently 16-17 different Chris king headset types…

Re 15mm axles, there’s 2 reasons for it.

1) Fox wanted to set up their own competing standard, to fight rockshox and to deal with teh fact that their own forks were uncompetitively flexible- the 32mm chassis was absolutely out of its depth at long lengths.
2) Shimano found 20mm didn’t play well with cup and cone hubs

And, er, that’s it, everything else was either imagined or invented or marketingised, Fox and Shimano combined had enough influence and OEM selling power and friends and fans and useful idiots to make an inferior standard win. I remember a brilliant MBR article which said “15mm is lighter than 20mm” right underneath a picture showing them both on the scales and the 20mm was lighter. Because of course it was- bigger tubes are stronger for the same weight, and bigger holes weigh nothing. Plus inevitably most people used convertible hubs so your 15mm Hope Pro 2 or whatever was the exact same hub, with a slightly heavier spacer set. 15mm could possibly be lighter but on average it wasn’t.

There were only a couple of months between Rockshox caving in to the inevitable and adapting 15mm and Fox going LOL and announcing a new 36 chassis that was available in 15mm and 20mm and was lighter in 20mm as well as stiffer.

I wonder if mountain biking has a “let’s kill hitler” moment- what was the exact point where companies realised that they could force through new standards without any recourse to merit? Obviously it’s led us to boost, bb standards, wheel wars etc etc. I’ve sometimes suggesting going back in time and throwing Kirk Pacenti into a volcano to prevent 650b but it didn’t start there. 15mm is the one that sticks in my mind