[Closed] Is this racist ?

In the work environment the native tongue should be spoken at all times

Don't you think that comes across as a bit needlessly authoritarian?

In the work environment the native tongue should be spoken at all times unless the work requires otherwise.

Two people, fluent in a language common to each other, which you aren't familiar with, are having a private conversation, which you are not party too, and your nose gets put out of joint?

Not sure how you have aprivate conversation whilst sat i at a till where it can be over heard ...could you explain?

I do believe the Life Shop™ © ® have a sale on, I suggest you pop along and get one.

Should I be in a public place in a foreign country with a friend, do you consider it to be racist that we hold our conversation in English, thus excluding everyone around us?

it would still be out of order for me to exclude others from my private conversations.

Jesus what is the world coming to.

Question for the OP - if you were working at say a Decathlon store in say France, and the person working on the next checkout was also a native English speaker, would you be having a natter in English or French?

How would the English get served in Welsh shops? You've singlehandedly kileed the economy of Abersoch.

In Wales then I'd accept it ...and enjoyed it in the past when the cashiers spoke Welsh. No problems with that.

fin25 - Member
Colgar, ¿esto nos hace racistas?

Quiza, en otra realidad que yo no entiendo!

Question for the OP - if you were working at say a Decathlon store in say France, and the person working on the next checkout was also a native English speaker, would you be having a matter in English or French?

French of course....unless the shop allowed their cashier to speak to me in English as it would be good customer relations.

A touch rude for staff to continue a conversation while they're serving you, but not really a big issue. I think it upsets people for a variety of reasons; you may feel self conscious, a bit ignorant and there are cultural norms. I don't think any of these trump a persons desire to converse naturally though. For most people,it is frustrating to communicate in a second language. I've sat in on plenty of Polish conversations where I get about 10%. I find it interesting to see what I can comprehend with a minimal vocabulary. Moment my MIL called me a pig was ****ing priceless though - about half of my Polish is food related 🙂

N

Not sure how you have aprivate conversation whilst sat i at a till where it can be over heard ...could you explain?

By talking in foreign of course

Though I think he meant a conversation of no concern to you rather than one to be kept from you at all costs.

thestabiliser - Member

By talking in foreign of coourse

I live in Germany.... I get peeved when the person serving me can't speak German.

Was recently in Berlin in a bagel shop. I said to the Mädl hinter der Kasse in my best high German "gibt mir bitte zwei von die da, vier von die und noch drei von die oben links da"
She may stared at me blankly and asked if I spoke English. Some septic. Told her in my best Bavarian "klor koan I Inglisch aber du bist in Deitschland..."
Sie looked blanker than before so I spoke to her in English. "You are in Germany. Why the hell should I speak to you in English...? Why don't you learn German?"
Ended up having a proper moan at the manager.

I consider myself to be "welt offen" but find it disrespectful if the person serving me doesn't use the local language. Obviously it's different if you as the customer can't speak the local lingo...

There are some proper trump supporters on here. Who cares what language people speak...as long as communication is made clear when required.

All this speak the national language when in public. A hilariously dim thing to say!

we have yet to meet the intellectual heights displayed in that post and i find your ad homs most compelling.

we have yet to meet the intellectual heights displayed in that post and i find your ad homs most compelling.

Whatever. He's nailed it.

What possible objection could anyone have to two people having a private conversation in their native language?

we have yet to meet the intellectual heights displayed in that post and i find your [b]ad homs[/b] most compelling.

I think it's natural to feel a little excluded when those around are having a conversation in a foreign tongue. It's not unusual for some to feel this less when in Spain amongst locals speaking Spanish than say in any British town amongst locals speaking any other language. Xenophobic more than racist but also not abnormal?

bigblackheinoustoe - Member
In the work environment all employees should speak the national language at all times unless the work requires otherwise. Outside of work whatever. It's professional.

Yes, but which one. There's at least three or four in the UK before you start talking about some pretty devious dialects

captainsasquatch - Member

Speak bloody English man!

maybe the conversation was how to work the till, or mind and give him the promotional discount we're doing right now, or how hot the guy in the queue is (ok probably not this one).

Anyways' I need to go have words with my wife about talking to her sister in their own language!!!!

My cousin (Libyan/Scottish) tells a story about going up in a lift at univ with two middle eastern students who didn't know she was a native Arabic speaker and understood every word while they were talking about her. She made an appropriate comment to them in Arabic as she left the lift at her floor.

Rule 1 of being in a customer facing position (god I want to have a word with myself about using that phrase) is that the customer is your exclusive point of interest when you are dealing with them- even in ASDA.

When serving the customer should you talk to a colleague about what you are doing at the weekend? Nope.
When serving the customer should you talk to a colleague about about the massive norks on the girl in the queue? Nope.
When serving the customer should you talk to a colleague about how much you hate your job and all the customer are brainless tossers? Nope.
When serving the customer should you talk to a colleague about if they have any spare carrier bags as you are running out? That's ok.

The problem for the OP is they don't have a clue which of those four conversations was being had. An issue which makes it inappropriate and in my opinion rude. The main 'crime' though was having the conversation in the first place; the language choice was secondary. And if the conversation was legitimate (carrier bags) a perception of rudeness was avoidable assuming being able to talk in English is a requirement of working in Asda.

convert - Member

The problem for the OP is they don't have a clue which of those four conversations was being had

But why assume it's anything but one you've decreed is OK? Essentially you're assuming rudeness without any reason

Essentially you're assuming rudeness without any reason

Rule 2 of being in a customer facing position is that the customer is always right. If the customer is put in a position where they can easily make an incorrect assumption it's your problem not theirs.

My mrs spent 2 years studying mime in Paris with Jacque Lecoq.

In awe and jealous

did she meet Nalle Laanela?

Rule 1 of being in a customer facing position (god I want to have a word with myself about using that phrase) is that the customer is your exclusive point of interest when you are dealing with them- even in ASDA.

When serving the customer should you talk to a colleague about what you are doing at the weekend? Nope.
When serving the customer should you talk to a colleague about about the massive norks on the girl in the queue? Nope.
When serving the customer should you talk to a colleague about how much you hate your job and all the customer are brainless tossers? Nope.
When serving the customer should you talk to a colleague about if they have any spare carrier bags as you are running out? That's ok.

When at a new detists in Glasgow years back the young dentist was chatting with the nurse about where they were going out that night, how hammered they were going to get and how much fun last night had been 🙂 Would have preferred that one in a foreign language.

Anyway for the OP address all complaints to the
Head of International Relations
British Section
New Republic of Trumpton
FAO Nige
[img] [/img]
He will sort it right out

OK - so when you go on holiday to Spain, do you refrain from talking across the person behind the counter at the supermarket ?

We have some Polish people at work. Somebody took me aside and tried to complain as they were having conversations in Polish. He thought they were talking about him. Hard to keep the professional face on for that one.

Reverse the situation. You're English, you live and work in Spain and your English colleague asks you something in English, does it matter if you respond in English or Spanish?

sums it up for me

Rule 2 of being in a customer facing position is that the customer is always right. If the customer is put in a position where they can easily make an incorrect assumption it's your problem not theirs.

I work with a Londoner, a Lithuanian and a couple of local people and I'm from West Yorkshire. It's like four different languages, mine been the most difficult one to comprehend. I love overhearing different languages and trying to pick out bits of conversation. As others have said I don't think the OP is racist and I agree that it's pretty rude. Then again I won't talk on the phone whilst being served in a shop and think anybody that does should have their phone taken off them and smashed with a toffee hammer.

personally i think its a bit rude to use a language in this country that is not native when you are fluent in the native language.

Relatives who live in germany have the rule of english in the home german in public at all times

I was once at kids art thing in the local library when a lady was speaking in an other language. She then asked me in the broadest local accent to pass her a pencil for her son. Seems daft to use another language to her son in that case.

It does not really bother me but one should speak the language if one is able to do so

I only ever use welsh or my flimsy arabic so that others cannot understand me,this may skew my opinion of it.

For the record, if I'm with a native English speaker here in France, and not in a group, we speak English. If I'm with another "foreigner" who speaks their own "foreign" and English and French, we generally have a quick chat about which would be easiest. Why would I have a conversation in a non-native tongue to someone else who is a native speaker of my native language, however good my French is (and, blowing my own trumpet, I hold a masters degree in French from a French university, so it's pretty much impossible to differentiate me from a native speaker)? The only reason I would, and here we get to politeness, is if there are others involved in a discussion who don't, and then the default should be the easiest for all concerned.

I'll be even blunter, WTF is it to you what language I use with my kids? Apart from giving you something to tut about and then post on the internet, I really don't know why you'd care.

Sorry for that but this is something I feel quite strongly about (because of my context) and all the outrage about speaking foreign is just ridiculous. The outrage about appalling customer service is a little ridiculous too, because generally speaking the UK can't even compete with France for appalling customer service. They're in a different league 😆

I've been slagged off on this forum for posting links to French and German sites, even though an automatic translation is two clicks away.

I don't mind what people speak among themselves, unless they've assumed I don't understand and are saying things they wouldn't if they knew I understood. That's when you find people are racist. As a teacher I asked a colleague for a check list of Gujarati insults that might concern me and heard them all too often.

Try working in a customer facing position and come back and report how many customers are always right. And then let me know exactly why they should put up with the way customers treat and talk to them.

I have numbnuts. Still do kind of. There is a difference between them actually being right and given the impression you think they are right or at least respect their opinion. It's called professionalism. Come back and report when you have a clue.

I have numbnuts. Still do kind of. There is a difference between them actually being right and given the impression you think they are right or at least respect their opinion. It's called professionalism. Come back and report when you have a clue.

As I said I couldn't give two hoots that they were having a chat, just that it was in different language

I'd say that is what makes it racist. You are not bothered by them chatting just the fact that it is another language?

If you were bothered about them chatting when they should be serving you that is one thing but only being offended because of the language they are talking is a bit racist IMHO.

I've been slagged off on this forum for posting links to French and German sites, even though an automatic translation is two clicks away.

That's a shame. That's called dumbing down, I think. Because not everyone is capable of reading a link in a language, no-one should. As you say basic translation is easy these days, and tbh, French and German are sufficiently common languages that it's not entirely unreasonable to imagine that at least a few of us would read them in their original language.

As a teacher I asked a colleague for a check list of Gujarati insults that might concern me and heard them all too often.

I'm a little less convinced about this bit. If I got offended every time I head "fat middle-aged bloke" in someone else's conversation I'd do a lot of tutting and complaining on the internet 😆 . Not entirely sure how being able to identify a few insults and inferring they're about you makes you anything but a little paranoid. Having said that, I'm not a teacher but I can imagine that a certain level of paranoia is possibly useful 😀

however good my French is (and, blowing my own trumpet, I hold a masters degree in French from a French university, so it's pretty much impossible to differentiate me from a native speaker)

Nonsense, everyone has an accent. I can have a pretty good guess at which region French people are from and the people here all know I'm not Béarnais. Even different valleys have different accents and indeed dialects. Sometimes people ask where I'm from so I ask them to guess, they're usually right with those that are wrong guessing Canada or Switzerland.

Even people that arrive very young but are bought up in native families have an accent, even third generation immigrants often have an accent. Kids from the "cité" in my local Lidl speak to their parents in France with an African accent even though they were born here. For those in the UK, sit on a bench in town with your eyes shut and listen to people talking as they walk past, especially the children, I bet you can hear where their parents are from.

Edit: how would you feel if you kept hearing the equivalent of the "n" word or "white honky" ?

I was once at kids art thing in the local library when a lady was speaking in an other language. She then asked me in the broadest local accent to pass her a pencil for her son. Seems daft to use another language to her son in that case.

Not really, it's educating them in another language. I always speak to my kids in English, despite living in Spain. That way they learn another language for free.

Edukator

however good my French is (and, blowing my own trumpet, I hold a masters degree in French from a French university, so it's pretty much impossible to differentiate me from a native speaker)

Nonsense, everyone has an accent. I can have a pretty good guess at which region French people are from and the people here all know I'm not Béarnais.

[img] [/img]

Good move Mogrim, junior has validated C2 English in the first term at uni. C1 German too perhaps because we watch so much German TV. The English at home thing broke down in lycée and we now have conversations that start in one language, finish in another and swap depending on what's being talked about.

For those in the UK, sit on a bench in town with your eyes shut and listen to people talking as they walk past, especially the children, I bet you can hear where their parents are from.

You have no way of verifying that, unless you stop each one. The ones who you can't tell, you'll think they are local when they aren't.

I've heard a French person speak with a perfect generic southern English accent, and I really really concentrate on these things and have a good ear, so I can almost always tell. But not always. Also overheard a conversation with a girl of about 12 and oriental appearance in a shop who had a pure Cardiff accent. At the end she turned to her mum and spoke Chinese. Also - having spoken to alpin's girlfriend on the phone, admittedly not for long, I would not have known that she was not English.

It is possible. You just can't tell if you don't ask them 🙂

Nonsense

everyone has an accent

I can have a pretty good guess at which region French people are from

As it happens I have a fairly neutral accent when I speak English, but most native speakers will pick up on a few markers that suggest I'm from north of the Watford gap. That doesn't mean it's easy to guess where I'm from (apart from a vague "the top half" type of guess). Partly because I've been away from there for so long, I expect, and partly because I'm not really "from" anywhere in particular, having moved around quite a bit in my formative years. But you're right, we also pick up accents from our parents, so I can understand directions when I'm in Newcastle 🙂

Everyone is more or less sensitive to accents, and some people can pick up on things that others can't. If you want, give me your phone number and I'll call you, then you can decide if it's nonsense or not, and we can both report back here afterwards. 🙂

Anyway - none of that really matters. But I do object to people telling me when I'm allowed to speak English to my own children, and when I'm not.

EDIT :

Edit: how would you feel if you kept hearing the equivalent of the "n" word or "white honky" ?

The last thing I expected this thread to turn into was linguistic willy waving, but there you go, STW in action.

That is why I love it here.

😉

To the OP - racist? Not particularly. Xenophobic? Absolutely.

I remember as a kid feeling unsure and a bit intimidated hearing other people talking to each other in a language I didn't understand. However I thought about my reaction to it, and realised that I shouldn't feel bad about it, so it became okay.

If more people did this instead of coming up with bullshit reasoning about what other people should be doing based on their own ill conceived gut reactions, the world might be a better more friendly place. And yes I know I've just done the same thing.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen,

This thread is like 21st Century politics in microcosm.

(1) OP asks a question about something he found unsettling, something that lots of people probably feel the same about.

(2) Other people call him a racist for asking.

(3)Question doesnt get asked again and resent simmers.

(4)Resentful person quietly votes for nut job who appears to answer the question albeit at the extreme.

I actually think the right-on (but dim witted) bunch have more to do with the success of Farage/Trump etc than actual racist ever could hope for.

Some people are really good at imitating, some do it professionally, not just accent but intonation, register. There's usually a give away though.

In Britain you can tell how much someone's education cost by the public-school accent.

[url= http://www.itv.com/news/2013-09-25/28-of-britons-feel-discriminated-against-due-to-accent/ ]An accent can result in discrimination[/url]

A brummy accent is less of a problem in France than London.

Brilliant, so Trump and Farage succeeded exactly because of the people that [i]didn't[/i] vote for them.

I think the responsibility for the xenophobic, insular ans selfish direction of western politics is firmly on those who support such things. True, the left has offered little in the way of alternative solution and all the moaning hasn't helped.

But let's look at what [i]actually[/i] happened, rather than what fits your narrative.

OP asked for our opinion, we gave it, he then said we couldn't give it, because he's definitely not racist. We then pointed out that it was a bit silly.

If the OP is full of simmering resentment at being called racist (which very few have actually called him), maybe he shouldn't post questions on STW that have a pronounced racial tone.

I'm far from racist

Yeah you are. We all are. It's hard-wired into us - we feel more comfortable and safe around people "like us" and we naturally are uneasy, or fearful, of those who are "different". Doesn't have to the skin colour or cultural origin, it might be you are on a bike and I'm in a car, or I'm a mountain biker and you're a roadie, but that's how we make sense of the world around us and evaluate what's a threat and what's safe.

We can't do anything about that, but we can do something about it manifesting itself in appropriate actions or words, if we acknowledge that it's there and make an effort to get past it. It's the people that just pretend (to themselves) that it's not there that come unstuck.

That's why the phrase "I'm not racist" is most often followed by "but.."

Careful edlong, logic and reason have no place here, too much of that and it'll be your fault when Le Pen wins in France.

A few years ago one of my balls swelled up to about twice its normal size. I looked at all the NHS direct stuff online and decided I needed to go to the doctor.
When I got into the consulting room, the doc asked me to take my trousers down and lie on the couch thing. Just as he placed his hand on my enlarged ball his mobile rang. With his free hand he answered it and had a conversation that wasn't in English. I was a bit put out. Might I be a racist?

Rude and unprofessional yes, racist no.

Answering phone - rude in the extreme
Speaking foreign - irrelevant

When I got into the consulting room, the doc asked me to take my trousers down and lie on the couch thing. Just as he placed his hand on my enlarged ball his mobile rang. With his free hand he answered it and had a conversation that wasn't in English. I was a bit put out. Might I be a racist?

Nope. Just a massive bawbag.

With his free hand he answered it and had a conversation that wasn't in English. I was a bit put out.

Maybe it was the callback from the Nagasaki Testicular Centre of Excellence?

I wonder what he ended up having for his diner ??

And whether he told his wife ... "You know when you rang me earlier? I had the biggest ballcock you've every seen, in the palm of my hand... Past the gravy pet"

surprised you found it strange being a londoner, its pretty much an everyday occurrence here, in fact its more of a shock to hear people conversing in English on the Tube!

When I got into the consulting room, the doc asked me to take my trousers down and lie on the couch thing. Just as he placed his hand on my enlarged ball his mobile rang. With his free hand he answered it and had a conversation that wasn't in English. I was a bit put out. Might I be a racist?

Imagine the same situation except that now you're a cowboy in a Wild West town and the Dr is conversing with an unseen speaker in fluid Creole language via a tin can attached to a string, all the while looking you in the eye as he inspects the swollen article.

Will you pay the doctor in nuggets, coin, favour or bullets?

Haven't read all the thread, so apologies if this question has been asked already. But does the question refer to the ladies or to the OPs reaction?

Either way not a black or white issue - oops

With his free hand he answered it and had a conversation that wasn't in English. I was a bit put out.

I'd be put out he answered the phone whilst examining me, tbh.

the doc asked me to take my trousers down and lie on the couch thing. Just as he placed his hand on my enlarged ball his mobile rang. With his free hand he answered it and had a conversation that wasn't in English. I was a bit put out. Might I be a racist?

Well on the one hand...

[Ah do it yourselves.]

[quote=Edukator ]I've been slagged off on this forum for posting links to French and German sites, even though an automatic translation is two clicks away.
I don't mind what people speak among themselves, unless they've assumed I don't understand and are saying things they wouldn't if they knew I understood.

I'll just point out that I welcome such links - and try not to use automatic translation on them (often it seems to miss important bits, and certainly doesn't give a good feel for the tone).

Personally I actually welcome people speaking non native languages - I reckon it makes for a more interesting world rather than a monocultural one. Is it rude to eavesdrop on conversations being had which people assume others won't understand? I'm not sure I ever did reveal to the German mum who took her little girl to the same playgroup I took my son to that I have fairly reasonable German.

Oh and since I'm resurrecting this having just found it, earlier in the thread there was the suggestion that at work everybody should use the native language of the country they're in. Does that include for example engineering firms in Germany?

I had a similarly unsettling incident I would like to report. Today I walked past a couple in the street and they were deliberately speaking a foreign language, near me!

Which emergency service should I call?

It's rude, no matter where they're from.
I wouldn't go through a checkout talking to someone else on the phone, because that is also rude.
It is courteous to give your attention to the person you are dealing with.

Had anyone called xenophobia?

No, what's his number? I'll call him now.

Imagine the same situation except that now you're a cowboy in a Wild West town and the Dr is conversing with an unseen speaker in fluid Creole language via a tin can attached to a string, all the while looking you in the eye as he inspects the swollen article.

Will you pay the doctor in nuggets, coin, favour or bullets?

Is this a Westworld spoiler?

Will you pay the doctor in nuggets, coin, favour or bullets?

I don't know what it was, but it was in my view the best response to this whole sorry thread. Yee hah. Ride 'em out!

[img] [/img]

No, what's his number? I'll call him now.

The contact number is 0208 612 7000 for xenophobia

The contact number is 0208 612 7000 for xenophobia

😆

I couldnt give a crap. My wife uses her language around her friends all the time because there are words and meanings that dont really exist in English....and my brothers wife converses with her daughter in her language in public...to make sure she grows up bilingual.