Is the term ‘jungle drums’ racist?

stop that before I get too turned on.

Not sure how I should feel about the “Black Friday” advert that has inserted itself into this thread multiple times….

Just don’t get it confused with Black-up Friday. Thats something else completely different and will definitely land you in hot water with HR

How about ‘smoke signals’? Racist?

This is about the fourth time someone has brought up smoke signals so let’s have a wee look at what makes a term racist.

Let’s go back to my racist term for brown people that the swear filter won’t let me use (it begins with a P and rhymes with taxi). Why is it OK for people to call me a Scot but not for someone to call my colleague from Pakistan a ****?

On the face of it they are both the same, an abbreviation to describe our place of birth. It wasn’t the PC brigade who one day decided, ‘Do you know what, I feel like getting offended today. Let’s call everyone who says **** a racist.’

The people who turned **** into a racist term were racists. They infused it with negative connotations and hurled it around until using it marked you out as, at best, ignorant of what was happening in society or, more likely, simply a racist.

Black people are at the cutting edge of what constitutes racist terms but they aren’t at the bleeding edge. The real experts in racist terminology are racists. There is no such thing as an inherently racist word.

There are two explanations for why this person took offense. The first is that Jungle Drums has been adopted by racists and they are now using it to insult black people.

The second is that it’s a phrase that has fallen so far out of common usage that this person had never heard it before. Jungle has many racist connotations thanks to racists so he may have assumed it was a racist term.

It sounds like the OP offended this black person and instead of saying, ‘Oh, I’m so sorry, I didn’t even think that could be the case.’ he said, ‘Sorry if you took offense but I didn’t say anything for you to get offended about.’ Are you really that surprised he didn’t want to stick around and hear your 8 point presentation about why it’s not racist?

This forum is mostly populated by people who don’t receive racial abuse and (I would hope) don’t dish it out. Therefore, if racist language is evolving and Jungle Drums has developed racist connotations we would be the absolute last ones to know about it.

Smoke signals probably isn’t racist because neither the words smoke nor signal have racist connotations and, as far as I know, racists haven’t started using it to abuse minorities so can we please stop making that argument?

To have a bunch of middle aged white people asserting with 100% confidence that there is absolutely nothing racist about Jungle Drums is absolutely ridiculous.

So the logical outcome of this is that as a white person, I will end up going around using offensive phrases (at least until I am informed about each individual, specific phrase by a black person) because apparently I have no way of knowing what is racist and what isn’t…… really?

Yes, mostly, that is exactly what happens. The only think you got wrong is that ‘you have no way of knowing’. Well, you do – you can read the right books, the right articles, and have the right conversations with the right people. It’s called learning, not ‘sticking to your guns’. You might’ve established your point of view in a vacuum, if you don’t have direct experience of the issues – but don’t continue to dismiss the issues because you’ve already decided on your point of view.

So instead of ‘it’s not racist and here’s why’ try ‘I didn’t think it was racist, I never realised how a black person would view it’.

Smoke signals probably isn’t racist because neither the words smoke nor signal have racist connotations and, as far as I know, racists haven’t started using it to abuse minorities so can we please stop making that argument?

Equally I have never heard the term ‘jungle drums’ to be used in a racist manner other than the bastardised use of it for cars with loud music playing. When used in the manner the OP used it I have never, ever thought of it as being meant as a racist attack.

Equally I have never heard the term ‘jungle drums’ to be used in a racist manner other than the bastardised use of it for cars with loud music playing. When used in the manner the OP used it I have never, ever thought of it as being meant as a racist attack.

If I call someone from Pakistan a **** is that not racist? It’s just like calling someone from Scotland a Scot, afterall.

**** is a term that has been infused with racist connotations. Once that happens it’s racist no matter how you use it.

Once you infuse Jungle Drums with racist connotations it becomes racist regardless of the context.

I’m still trying to work out what begins with P and rhymes with taxi…

You offended someone. Apologise profusely. It’s what you do if you bump into someone in the street even if it wasn’t your fault.

Is it? Someone bumps into you and you go “sorry”?

I’m not sure as I buy into this notion of automatically being in the wrong just because someone else says you are. If I said “I took my suit to the dry cleaners yesterday” and a passing person of colour happening to walk past, overheard and said “hey, that’s racist!” do I then have to spend the rest of my life wearing crumpled shirts for fear of causing offence?

Even if there’s some undiscovered racist connotations to the phrase that the OP (and seemingly most posters here) were unaware of, that’s kind of irrelevant because that’s not the context in which the OP was using it. If he’d been discussing some phat beatz coming from the car park then I can see how offence might be taken there as it’s potentially equating black / Asian people with African tribes. Similarly if he’d enquired as to the whereabouts of his colleague by asking “hey, where’s Jungle Drums today?” then that’s blatantly racist. But using “jungle drums” as a metaphor for information which spreads possibly inaccurately but quickly and widely, you’d really have to try pretty hard to find racist intent there.

So, I don’t think the OP did anything wrong (aside from his clumsy non-apology perhaps). However, his co-worker was (baselessly) offended, so in the interests of having to work together every day, some form of explanation might be in order. Like I said earlier, “I had no idea that anyone could take that turn of phrase as having racist connotations and that absolutely wasn’t my intention, however if it bothers you then I won’t use it again.” Grapevine is a perfectly cromulent substitute, assuming there’s no overly sensitive vintners in the organisation.

Jungle Drums has been adopted by racists and they are now using it to insult black people.

‘Adopted’ by how many, who and where? Please provide facts.

Is there a ‘tipping-point’ where the meaning and context of a well-known phrase now becomes ‘racially-charged’ and then subject to BANHAMMER! ie User = badignorantinsensitive?

Is it? Someone bumps into you and you go “sorry”?

That’s ageistracist against middle-class English elderly persons 🤣

I wouldn’t say ‘cromulent’ in a non-apology (a “nology”, if you will).

‘Adopted’ by how many, who and where? Please provide facts.

guy quoted in the OP

I wouldn’t say ‘cromulent’

Conan the Barbarian is deeply offended.

guy quoted in the OP

Which ‘guy quoted in the OP’ adopted the phrase and used it to insult black people? I’m lost. #sarcasmfail?

Grapevine is a perfectly cromulent substitute,

(Looks up ‘cromulent’)

Ah, but IS it? Heard It Through The Grapevine is a song by Marvin Gaye, well-known person of African descent. People have used his surname to insult LGBGTQ people. Not only that but California Raisins Advisory Board used the song to make a claymation commercial of singing raisins. That vaguely weird and vaguely racist commercial made so much money for indie label Priority Records that they signed N.W.A.

It’s a minefield. And by ‘minefield’ I don’t mean to insult amputees or victims/families of victims of landmines.

Which ‘guy quoted in the OP’ adopted the phrase and used it to insult black people? I’m lost. #sarcasmfail?

No, felt offended by its use.

(it begins with a P and rhymes with taxi)

How do rhymes work?

Yeah, it’s all Greek to me.

that’s kind of irrelevant because that’s not the context in which the OP was using it.

So it’s perfectly OK to describe someone from Pakistan as a ****? According to the swear filter it isn’t.

Or do you think that **** was racist from the very first time the term was used?

I see the OP hasn’t posted for a while, do you think he’s been lynched?

‘Adopted’ by how many, who and where? Please provide facts.

I can see we’re at the stage where all I’m going to be doing is quoting my previous replies.

This forum is mostly populated by people who don’t receive racial abuse and (I would hope) don’t dish it out. Therefore, if racist language is evolving and Jungle Drums has developed racist connotations we would be the absolute last ones to know about it.

Believe it or not, not everything can be found on the internet.

I also gave an alternate explanation.

The second is that it’s a phrase that has fallen so far out of common usage that this person had never heard it before. Jungle has many racist connotations thanks to racists so he may have assumed it was a racist term.

Either way the OP’s dismissive attitude and the attitude of many on this forum shows an astonishing level of arrogance for a subject most have no direct experience of.

do you think he’s been lynched?

that’s kind of irrelevant because that’s not the context in which the OP was using it

We only have his word on that, he has painted a picture of child like innocence, made himself out as a victim of a “PC gone mad world” while labelling the other party as a professionally offended trouble maker.

I doubt that is really the way it went down, it is possible, but not that plausible. I expect there was more to it than that and that the OP is just fishing for justification and support without revealing the whole story.

Once you infuse Jungle Drums with racist connotations it becomes racist regardless of the context.

Except, no-one (or at least, hardly anyone) seems to have done that.

The P-word you’re talking about is bizarre. I find it incredible that it’s considered racist when by its very definition it’s simply descriptive, like saying Scot or Pole*. When I was at school the local corner shop was known as the “**** shop” and no-one thought twice about it, it was a shop run by an Asian gentleman and there were no negative connotations implied, it was as innocent as saying “Chinese takeaway”. Yet it’s become inherently racist today simply because it’s been used so often by racists that it’s lost any other meaning.

So what I’m trying to say here I think is, you can’t directly equate the two. The contraction of Pakistani is so widely considered to be a racist term that only a racist (or someone breathtakingly ignorant) would ever use it these days. Whereas “jungle drums” simply does not have that status.

(* – actually, is that considered pejorative these days too or is that OK?)

Not have a cock fight about who’s right.

Did Molgrips just assume hodgynd’s gender?

Except, no-one (or at least, hardly anyone) seems to have done that.

The point I made is that the inhabitants of the forum would be absolutely the last ones to know if it was developing racist connotations.

The first people to know a word is developing racist connotations are the racists who use it to abuse minorities.

The second are the minorities on the receiving end.

The last people to know are nice middle class types who hang around on mountain biking forums. Therefore it is ridiculously arrogant for 99% of the people who post here to tell a minority to ‘Get over it’.

For how many years were racists using **** as a racist term while nice white middle class types said, ‘But it’s obviously not racist. Am I racist for calling someone a Scot? Of course not!’

The contraction of Pakistani is so widely considered to be a racist term that only a racist (or someone breathtakingly ignorant) would ever use it these days.

Nobody is saying people who use the term Jungle Drums are ignorant. What is ignorant is to assume that you are any kind of authority on what is and isn’t racist. If a minority tells you something you said is racist then just apologise. You might learn why the other party took offense. It might even turn out they were mistaken.

What you don’t ever say is, ‘Sorry you took offense but there is nothing to be offended about.’

They are far more likely to be an expert on the subject than you are.

You’re perhaps too young to remember “blood on the streets” and ****-bashing, Cougar. Skin head ****-bashers were a real thing in the Birmingham of my youth. Bad times and the word **** is now justifiably seen as highly racist.

The P-word you’re talking about is bizarre. I find it incredible that it’s considered racist when by its very definition it’s simply descriptive, like saying Scot or Pole*. When I was at school the local corner shop was known as the “**** shop” and no-one thought twice about it, it was a shop run by an Asian gentleman and there were no negative connotations implied, it was as innocent as saying “Chinese takeaway”. Yet it’s become inherently racist today simply because it’s been used so often by racists that it’s lost any other meaning.

Two things – first, you’d have been better to go with “chinky” for a word which doesn’t offend you, but does offend or at leas annoy some people of chinese descent, and is less associated with people getting their heads kicked in.

Second, and mainly, trying to define a set of rules for allowed language is probably better than no action though it does lead to the sort of feeble PC gawn mad humour on this thread. Much much better is to know that offending people accidentally and saying the wrong thing from time to time is just human. And rather than rules, when you inadvertently offend someone just find out what it is you did, say sorry, and avoid doing it again. (Unless you actually wanted to offend them.)

Which ‘guy quoted in the OP’ adopted the phrase and used it to insult black people? I’m lost. #sarcasmfail?

johnx – No, felt offended by its use.

We’re totally talking past one another now 🤪. This thread is quite an eye-opener re humans and communication. It’s a mimefield variously marked* area typified by randomly-placed subterranean explosive devices. *Where the markings (which may or may not be present) are often in a (literally or effectively) different language or context to that which would prove most effective to the unwary. To assist in the explosive nature of proceedings it seems that language itself is prone to change like shifting grains of silicon dioxide. The internet isn’t helping much, especially if one person on Urban Dictionary is instantly granted global gold-standard reference status for a given phrase.

We’re totally talking past one another now 🤪. This thread is quite an eye-opener re humans and communication. It’s a mimefield variously marked* area typified by randomly-placed subterranean explosive devices. *Where the markings (which may or may not be present) are often in a (literally or effectively) different language or context to that which would prove most effective to the unwary. To assist in the explosive nature of proceeding – language changes like shifting grains of silicon dioxide. The internet isn’t helping much, especially if one person on Urban Dictionary is instantly granted global gold-standard reference status for a given phrase.

The guy quoted in the OP said he felt offended. How’s that talking past you?

The P-word you’re talking about is bizarre. I find it incredible that it’s considered racist when by its very definition it’s simply descriptive, like saying Scot

There is a Family Guy skit where “scot” is used as a racial slur 😃. I think the point is that it really doesn’t matter what is said, it’s all down to how it’s interpreted (and the intention of the speaker is a part of this but certainly not the be-all-and-end-all)

not a term I heard used much in recent times and I suspect that many from younger generations may have never heard it used and for those that have suffered racist taunts any word grouping that starts or includes “jungle” is probably suspect

There is a Family Guy skit where “scot” is used as a racial slur

If you want to offend a Scotsman, don’t you call him “scotch”?

If you want to offend a Scotsman, don’t you call him “scotch”?

Nope.

You call him English

And rather than rules, when you inadvertently offend someone just find out what it is you did, say sorry, and avoid doing it again.

This is what I hope folk take away from this (although I would say the correct order is say sorry, find out what it is you did, and avoid doing it again). I’m not sure what this resistance is to saying sorry even if you don’t feel like you did anything wrong.

I think people tend to freak out if they feel like they are being accused of being racist and will do everything possible to ‘prove’ they aren’t. Saying sorry would be an admission of guilt and therefore admitting to being racist.

Just apologise. But whatever you do, don’t say, ‘I’m sorry if you are offended but…’

Equally I have never heard the term ‘jungle drums’ to be used in a racist manner 

I have, used to imply a black person is to stupid to use a phone.

Saying sorry would be an admission of guilt and therefore admitting to being racist.

Would it?

The guy quoted in the OP said he felt offended. How’s that talking past you?

Because I wasn’t asking about the guy in the OP, (from the OP, we can only assume what it was about the phrase that triggered him)- I was asking Brucewee for some actual data to back up his broad claim about the term’s ‘racist’ usage.

ie

Jungle Drums has been adopted by racists and they are now using it to insult black people.

That is a universal claim. I also asked about a ‘tipping point’. Or do we just accept that if one or (a handful) of people are either offended (or are using the term to give offence) then it is now a ‘verboten’ phrase, and also now supercharged with the global and executive definition of an ‘offensive term’. With the internet, that can be overnight. It’s paradoxical to me because racism is killed by ridicule of racism, yet also kept alive by ridicule of ‘race’. Ridicule of oversensitivity is problematic.

I would say the correct order is say sorry, find out what it is you did, and avoid doing it again).

yep. Never said I was any good at this…

OP. All you need to do is provide your HR people with a link to this thread, I’m sure that’ll set them right 🙂

What is ignorant is to assume that you are any kind of authority on what is and isn’t racist. If a minority tells you something you said is racist then just apologise. You might learn why the other party took offense. It might even turn out they were mistaken.

I agree with the vast majority of what you’re saying, you talk a lot of sense. The only point I’d perhaps disagree on is the implication that an apology is automatically mandatory. The missing step being to ask why first.

If I inadvertently say something offensive, then of course I will apologise sincerely. If however someone is simply looking for any old reason or opportunity to be offended then pff, let them choose to take offence, I’m not apologising for that.

Let me give you a real world example. A little while ago I had a Canadian friend visiting. At one point – well, probably several times – I called her variations on a “cheeky cow.” Then one time she said to me something like, “every time you call me that, I hate you just a little bit more.” I was shocked. I said, “wait, what? Why?”

It turned out that to her, calling someone a “cow” doesn’t mean what it means over here in the UK but rather it’s a physical insult, it implies “fat cow” or “you look like a cow.” As she’s a larger lady, I was absolutely mortified. I apologised profusely, explained that I had absolutely no idea and that it genuinely doesn’t mean that here at all, and vowed never to call her that again.

Point is, if I’d just gone “oh, sorry” and dropped the subject then neither of us would have been any the wiser. I’d have thought she was overreacting, and she’d have remained under the false impression that I’d been repeatedly calling her fat for months.