Is endurance riding making me slow¿

I moved to Spain last year to San Pedro near Marbella. There’s loads of MTB trails but unfortunately I sold my bike prior to our move. I have a road bike, and in the last few years have ridden this predominantly. My issue is that the terrain here is largely mountainous, whereas previously in the UK it was hilly (York) and flat (Bedfordshire). I don’t mind the mountains, the scenery is great and the climate is favourable. The only real issue with the roads is the lack of a network of small/medium/large roads.

All towns along the sea from are connected by the A7 a double carriageway, and from this you have to travel up and over the mountain passes to get into the interior and to complete a circular route. This makes routes both long 100Km plus, and high with elevation gain anywhere between 2500-3500m. All this with (no complaining) extreme weather conditions where temperatures can be between 20-40c. So the only riding I can do being endurance (ergo long and slow) mountain routes.

My question is, given that you get good at what you ride, am I going to end up being a low speed climber with no capacity for speed, or will the constant endurance training give power increases when riding on the flat¿

I’da thought you need to be training specific energy systems for specific requirements. Could you throw in some interval work on a big climb?

PS: it’s grey, cold, damp & raining here ;(

Read Chris Froomes book, him and Richie Porte spent their build up to his 2013 TdF win climbing mountains but throwing in sprints and other ‘efforts’ on the slopes too.

There are plenty of Dutch riders who climb well despite it being a fairly flat country, they just seek out the short sharp ones line the Kapelmuur etc and session them instead.

Where there’s a will there’s a way.

I’m not sure if it’s directly comparable, but running lots of marathon and ultramarathon races has definitely made me slower when it comes to shorter stuff. Last year I managed to alleviate the problem by mixing in interval training or other speed work – I’ll never be challenging Mo Farah on the short races he does, but I won’t be making a fool of myself either 🙂

Given where you live one fairly mind numbing way to do this kind of training would be to find a stretch of flat road local to you with a couple of roundabouts, and ride hard from one to the other, then pootle back. Repeat. The other would be the dreaded turbo trainer… A final suggestion would be to join a local road club, they probably do both training and know of other local roads that you might have missed.

^^^ I found the opposite to Mogrim.^^^
I did my first marathon last year and combined with the training I managed to drop 5k, 5m, 10k, and 9 mile times considerably.
I was aiming for a decent marathon time so was pushing it in the training runs I was doing. I did also do some speed/interval/hill sessions in those. It helped my endurance overall.
Do some interval type work on your longer rides to work on your speed.

I live in the Italian Maritime Alps and work as an mtb guide where climbing us long and slow, when I visit the Uk I am slower on the climbs, the same is on descents as steeper gradients means i sprint very little.

am I going to end up being a low speed climber with no capacity for speed

Yeah, to a point. If you don’t train short hard efforts you’ll lose power.

I’m heavily sprint biased, and when I trained for a 24 hour solo I lost my ability to properly attack short stuff.

Mogrim’s advice is good.

I did my first marathon last year and combined with the training I managed to drop 5k, 5m, 10k, and 9 mile times considerably.

That’s not really short stuff though is it? 5k is still an endurance event. In running terms we would be talking about 200m or 400m. In MTBing, you get to do the equivalent of every track running event from 100m to 10k.

^^^ I found the opposite to Mogrim.^^^
I did my first marathon last year and combined with the training I managed to drop 5k, 5m, 10k, and 9 mile times considerably.
I was aiming for a decent marathon time so was pushing it in the training runs I was doing. I did also do some speed/interval/hill sessions in those. It helped my endurance overall.
Do some interval type work on your longer rides to work on your speed.

I’m not sure that’s the opposite! As I said you need to mix in intervals/speed work if you want to maintain speed. And it all depends on your starting point, too – if doing endurance training leads to your general fitness increasing (and weight dropping) that could well have a positive effect on the rest of your running or cycling. But you definitely need to do the speed work, just doing (aerobic) long runs or rides will make you slow.

That’s not really short stuff though is it? 5k is still an endurance event. In running terms we would be talking about 200m or 400m.

I’d certainly say 5k is a short race, I’d be running it at the high end of Z3 / low Z4. Not a 200m sprint of course, but not what I’d call “endurance”. (It’s nothing like a mountain marathon, for example).

It’s a short race for a marathon runner, but it’s not a sprint, which is what I’m talking about. An MTB ride could be a series of efforts less than 5 mins; as a distance runner even your shortest races are a lot longer than 5 mins aren’t they?

In my opinion you actually have the perfect playground for training speed – you only become “a low speed climber with no capacity for speed” if thats the only way your ride. A 100km mountain ride is actually fine for working speed – under-over intervals up the climbs, then roll down the other side for recovery.

A quick look at the map and investigation with google street view shows you also have a great climb up to Istan right on your doorstep that is used by cyclists – its only 40km round trip from the centre of San Pedro, and looks ideal for doing some proper hard efforts.

Also, for the record, i’d much rather ride in your extreme 20-40c than in the -5-15c I get here!

No idea about training, but for me, living in the mountains and only having a road bike would be a bit like living in a world of soup and only having a fork.
😉

I bet it’s spectacular but get a mtb. Surely different riding will help with training?

I’d agree with most of the above. Your body adapts to what’s in front of it, if all you do is climb at tempo then you’ll get very good at climbing at tempo. However, if you climb at tempo and throw in some threshold, some 10 second, 30second and 1 min sprints, some low cadence work, you’ll generally be a more well rounded and faster rider.

Also, for the record, i’d much rather ride in your extreme 20-40c than in the -5-15c I get here!

You’d love it here in Madrid – we get the -10C stuff in winter, and the 40C fun in summer 🙂

That’s not really short stuff though is it? 5k is still an endurance event. In running terms we would be talking about 200m or 400m. In MTBing, you get to do the equivalent of every track running event from 100m to 10k.

Not when you’re training for a marathon. The fact I was running further but also including speed/interval sessions meant my endurance improved and as such I was consistently faster over ‘shorter’ (i.e. less than marathon/half marathon distance). You’ve got to balance things out. Too much of one thing will push towards that. There needs to be a combination of the speed and the distance to give the overall benefits.
I didn’t focus on the speed. The marathon was my focus, but the speed/interval sessions meant I got faster over the ‘shorter’ distances.
When I’d finished the marathon training and went back to running shorter distances I found the speed increased again as I was more focused on that, but the longer endurance faded. It’s a balance.

As above, you will adapt to ride as you train.
My training for Salzkammergut trophy has shown that. The first time I did it I was fixated on the distance (211km) so worked mainly on that. I noticed the problem going up a local climb in training where I took 30 minutes to climb, 9 minutes longer than my PB. In the event, I had the endurance, but not the speed on the climbs to get to the end, and since it is also 7100m climbing, that is a problem.
The next year I did more intervals, on my long rides I was ensuring I was within a reasonable time of my PB when doing the climbs, and it made a huge difference to my ability to ride in the event.

The fact I was running further but also including speed/interval sessions

I’m confused now.

We’re advocating the speed/interval work, which is what the OP suggests his normal riding might not get. We are on the same page!

I was going to post something similar about this today after an experience last night.

I’ve always had a great snap to my riding and have found most people struggle to sprint with me or keep up on short punchy climbs (where raw power for short bursts wins). Can wind it up for a minute and drop people but then I’m spent.

Recently I’ve been going out for much longer rides and I’m definitely finding that balance changing, I’ve still got the bursts but not to the extent I did have before, but can definitely keep going longer and faster over a period of time than I used to.

In my experience there is definitely a loss of explosion when training longer rides and if you read some of the literature on training some sports science bods claim that fast twitch muscle fiber can convert to slow twitch given longer endurance training (would definitely explain my experiences with this).

Thanks for the responses, seems like some interval work is needed 🙂

A quick look at the map and investigation with google street view shows you also have a great climb up to Istan right on your doorstep that is used by cyclists – its only 40km round trip from the centre of San Pedro, and looks ideal for doing some proper hard efforts.

Benahavis is nice, but too much of an easy gradient to really challenge, it has a couple of nice cobbled climbs though…

Istán is longer, with a steepish section under the AP7, the descent is rolling and fast…

Ojén is good, with a steep section out of Marbella, then undulating to the town with a nice set of switchbacks up to the Refugio de Juánar…

The other routes I take are Los Reales out of Estapona, which is about 14Km at an average of 6%…and El Madroño which is 20Km at 5% average…

Don’t get me wrong there is loads of amazing riding, but I just feel I’m turning into a diesel engine rather than a hybrid 🙂

@ Molgrips.

Yeah, we are on the same page.
Although that I would say a 5K isn’t endurance in terms of marathon or greater distances. I appreciate though that this is not the case for everyone.

My take is that the speed comes from the short fast work, and the endurance gives you the strength to maintain the speed for longer. Focusing too much on either will mean you’re better at which ever end of the spectrum you’re targeting (to the detriment of the other).

Thanks for the responses, seems like some interval work is needed

Everyone needs interval work!

same as others, I ‘trained’ for a 12HR solo by working out sustainable HR zones and riding long rides in those zones. And then couldn’t keep up on the Saturday social club ride when people started hammering climbs or singletrack.

If you want to train for a specific event, train for that event. To be a better all round rider you need to do a bit of everything. But personally if you have to choose one over the other, I would prioritise shorter higher intensity riding – which should give you higher power over a range of effort levels, and then you can choose whether to use those higher effort levels when you have a bigger day out or just sit in a lower effort levels and eke out your matches. If you don’t have the power in your locker, you don’t have the choice to use it or not.

Lovely part of the world BTW. I’m in Calahonda for a week every April/May and usually hire a MTB in Ronda for a couple of days, taking to the many tracks through the hills. I’ve considered a road bike but came to the conclusion that avoiding the A7 (and it’s surrounds) was going to mean massive climbs in the sort of heat to which I am not accustomed. That climb over to Ronda does seem very popular with cyclists though.

too much of an easy gradient to really challenge

Stick it in the 50/11 – that’ll make it a challenge 😈

Ronda is amazing, some really beautiful scenery within the valleys between there and the coast…

Stick it in the 50/11 – that’ll make it a challenge

Trouble is I run a 52/11 🙂

No such thing as “too easy to challenge” i spent a few years training in various (very) flat bits of the world (Norfolk for one!) and could still hold my own up hill. You just have to go faster and work harder. Lots of people do the same.

And as for 100km being long and steady, find a road club, a decent fast group could knock out 100km/2000+m of climbing in around 4 hours. An elite group working together might knock another 20-30 minutes off that or more

ghostlymachine – Member
No such thing as “too easy to challenge” i spent a few years training in various (very) flat bits of the world (Norfolk for one!) and could still hold my own up hill. You just have to go faster and work harder. Lots of people do the same.

And as for 100km being long and steady, find a road club, a decent fast group could knock out 100km/2000+m of climbing in around 4 hours. An elite group working together might knock another 20-30 minutes off that or more

Swoons 🙂

Errrr, you’re 25min from these guys

MTB Winter riding in Spain

Sell the road bike and get off-road.

When I went the trails were littered with Spains unemployed yoof on ratty DH rigs and hardtails.

There are plenty of Dutch riders who climb well despite it being a fairly flat country, they just seek out the short sharp ones line the Kapelmuur etc and session them instead.

i spent a few years training in various (very) flat bits of the world (Norfolk for one!) and could still hold my own up hill. You just have to go faster and work harder

you don’t train for long gradual Alpine climbs by smashing or sessioning short, steep ones, you can do it by riding on the flat at a lower cadence

http://thecolcollective.com/learn/advice/how-to-train-for-the-mountains-if-you-live-on-the-flat

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/improve-at-climbing-without-hills-34615/

I went into the CX season off the back of 3 weeks riding the Alps/Dolomites with missus, so lost my top end and got quicker and placed higher as the season went on.

Maybe look at joining a local club, nothing like riding with a group to stretch yourself.

We were over in elviria in November and did some road biking. TBH we struggled with routes due to the A7 but got my folks (who live there) to drop us places and pick us up later. We did istan a few times. Also did a nice route from the big shopping centre up to monda and coin and then over to alhaurin, towards Mijas and then down to calahonda. Great route, lots of climbing, some very fast descents (fastest I saw was 45mph, fast for me, since only started road bikes last summer due to broken leg recovery).

if you can get the train into Malaga, there are some cracking routes around there.