If you're thinking of winter car tyres…

there is the small matter of if you wash your car and tell the insurance they will put the price up when asked.

Interestingly, my Volvo recommends winter tyres. Would insurance be invalidated if they aren’t fitted…?

Third year of WRG2s. Self employed in the Flat Country, Sheffield, and have only failed to get to a job once. That was because the staff at my wholesaler failed.

Winter tyres necessary? No.
Winter tyres invaluable? Yes.

If people took a little more effort to look after their own safety and continued automobility, the slightly snowy conditions we are enjoying at the moment wouldn’t be anything like the DISASTER the general populous and doom-mungering media would suggest. 2p

there is the small matter of if you wash your car and tell the insurance they will put the price up when asked.

If you are daft enough to tell your insurance company go for it.

You will get the following response: “This makes no change to your Premium” great, “But there is a £35 admin fee applicable!”

I can believe no one has likened it to riding a bike in the winter on something like semi slicks, Larsens or Ardents etc

Here’s one for you. Spending the cash on tuition on how to drive in adverse weather conditions would be much more effective than spending it on tyres. Gains to be made through a change of tyres are marginal at best and worse than summer tyres in a lot of conditions. Gains to be made from learning and applying the correct techniques are, on the otherhand, huge.

So, these countries where winter tyres are the norm, do they commute as long and as far as we do? How does the volume of traffic on the M6 or M25 at rush hour compare?

Interesting question. Quick googling seems to indicate about 45-70 minutes average commuting time for UK and about 30-45 minutes on this winter tyre requiring country’s capital.

Traffic volume seems to be about half of M25 and massive traffic jams are not as common here. Some freaky weather patterns will cause trouble couple of times a year but normal winter weather (-10C, snow on the road) does not really cause problems.

jamj1974 – Member

Kryton57 – Member
That’d be £630 for two weeks a year.

Seeing as I live in the SE, the family car is part time haldex 4wd and the other RWD car won’t be used in these conditions I don’t think I’ll bother, but thanks.

^£650 for four winter tyres – what size? I looked around in the summer for winter tyres and wheels and found a set of new steel wheels and good quality winter tyres for just over £500 – bearing in mind my normal tyres are 19″ – yours must be enormous!

235 / 18. I’ll do it again properly and repost the tyres options / price range.

agreed glupton – amaizing how many folk buy a 4×4 and dont know how to use it from what ive witnessed and the questions ive been asked by colleagues in their new snow tax purchased discos … hopefully i can nab a decent 200/300 TDI off em cheap when the hysteria blows over.

lo ratio to get up icy snowy hills i dont think – coming down them – yep by all means.

putting the foot flat to the floor at the bottom of a hill in your range rover results in loss of traction and sliding sideways into a ditch.

id be all up for gritting being stopped as well. folks will slow down then.

based on what ive witnessed in FSU states during snow times.

and our cars wont rot the same. im sure the gritting alone is what keeps our car sales industry alive.

If you had two identical drivers and two identical cars (save that one had summers and the other winters) and were about to go on a journey this weekend in wintery weather, which car would you choose to travel in?

Any reason why you think your family would choose any different?

of course, i’m sure some will argue that even with different tyres, both cars will still handle identically 🙂

id be all up for gritting being stopped as well

for once I agree with you, well certainly on snow-covered roads! I’m sure driving sensibly on snow has got to be better than the re-frozen sludge that gritting causes. And would prevent a lot of people from venturing on the road. Also, people don’t realise that when it gets below -7 (as it has done recently) salted water re-freezes anyway, with a nice smooth sheen having briefly thawed. Fantastic.

Here’s a link with stopping distances: http://www.selectatyre.co.uk/car-tyres

All season tyres are probably best for the weather we have in Scotland. Decent high silica content summer tyres are probably best for England.

I would disagree tbh. In Scotland I would go with winter tyres in winter and depending on type of car/driving either good summer tyres in summer on a car I drive hard or good all season ones on a general pootling car.

That website data ^ for stopping distance doesn’t show the times that cars with summer tyres have completely failed to stop and have gone sliding down a hill.

There is also more to the tyre than the softer compound. The tread has to be designed to bite into snow and use the snow to grip the snow underneath, it also clears easier instead of clogging readdy to bite into the next bit as they rotate back around. They also have sipes which allow the blocks to move around and be more supple and provide additional bite into the snow. In rain/slush the sipes draw up water from the road surface allowing the rubber to contact the road and then squirt it out behind the car as the tyre rotates.

Do people actually have “summer” tyres? Or are they just ordinary tyres. Surely standard tyres for the UK are designed to cope with a balance of conditions.

I won’t argue with anyone who says they notice an improvement, in the relevant conditions, with winter tyres but 40 years ago when all we had was “tyres” and generally longer and harsher winters (in terms of road conditions), when a gritter was a lorry with two guys with shovels standing in the back, folk just got on with it and drove according to the conditons. I’ll concede that drivers were able to get more experience of such conditions and the narrower tyres of those days were better suited, but still.

BBC had an article a couple of years ago about insurance companies hiking the premium for those who were fitting winter tyres. Don’t know if that has changed but I’m sure it might be seen by some companies as an “alteration” from the standard spec.

They seem to be doing anything to raise prices or avoid a payout. Fit an EU approved silencer to your motorcycle for £200 instead of £700 for the manufacturer’s replacement rot box? Sorry chum.

I’d go in the car with all season tyres on it. 😀

^£650 for four winter tyres – what size? I looked around in the summer for winter tyres and wheels and found a set of new steel wheels and good quality winter tyres for just over £500 – bearing in mind my normal tyres are 19″ – yours must be enormous!

Cost isn’t based on size alone, it is also based on profile, width, specification (ie runflat) etc.

Kryton57 – Member

jamj1974 – Member

Kryton57 – Member
That’d be £630 for two weeks a year.

Seeing as I live in the SE, the family car is part time haldex 4wd and the other RWD car won’t be used in these conditions I don’t think I’ll bother, but thanks.

^£650 for four winter tyres – what size? I looked around in the summer for winter tyres and wheels and found a set of new steel wheels and good quality winter tyres for just over £500 – bearing in mind my normal tyres are 19″ – yours must be enormous!

235 / 18. I’ll do it again properly and repost the tyres options / price range.

Done. 235/55/18 and Blackcircles comes up only with the Yokohama wdrive V902A at £174.1 each fitted.

As I said – I haven’t researched other options.

Well that’s quite a thread for my ‘I’m happy I spent the money’ OP.

is it worth it? Yes, to me. My tyres cost £360 fitted (205,55 R16) and I went for the most expensive ones, Perelli as it happens. Why is it worth it? Because my HOURLY wage bill is £600, and I look to output £6000/hr. If I’m not at work, I know things slip.
Can I feel it? Yes. The grip is better in a straight line, and great around corners and braking. Will I use all that grip on every corner? No, of course not. However, should I need to, it’s there. I drive 80miles a day on A roads and thourgh a city. Occasionally I do have someone pull out, a lunatic cyclist hopping off the kirb etc.
Glupton76, what technique for braking hard when a small child steps out in front of you? Any technique will have better results given and increase in grip when performing no?

Also, just out of curiosity, I just looked on Black Circles and the winter tyre available for my car has a lower wet weather rating than the original fitted tyre. So I would compromise wet weather driving for occasional snow/ice safety. And I think I would be *much* more likely to be driving at higher speeds – ie on a motorway – in rain than in snow.

Ohh, and the winter tyres are coming in at £312 each for my car against £210 for ‘standard’ tyres.

part worn is a good option because some countries set the wear limit on Winter tyres at 5mm IIRC.
Consequently, there is a steady supply of 5mm Winter tyres available.
Full set cost me £100 fitted and balanced for the Mondeo.
and a full set of alloys to stick ’em on was £80

£180 well spent as I’ve had two winters out of them so far, including driving to Italy for ski trips two years running.

EDIT: re notifying your insurance, see ABI page here

Could be worse. I’ve just had to drive around this weekend with a winter tyre on one frontside and a space saver on the other front. That was fun…

johndoh, yes that’s absolutely correct. Pure winter snow tyres seem to be awful in the rain. I don’t know the physics, but all the data I found said that. I got some ‘sport winters’ ie, designed to be driven in typical uk, cold and wet conditions. The offset is that they don’t work quite as well in the snow, but overall, I think I’m going to be happy.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tyre-guides/45312/pirelli-sottozero-winter-240-serie-ii

Edit: £300+ per tyre? Good god man, what do you drive?

235 / 18. I’ll do it again properly and repost the tyres options / price range.

What you need to do is check your cars handbook or with the manufacturer what size winter tyre they say to use with your car.

Often you will find with cars with wide sports tyres that the manufacturer recommends a slightly smaller wheel with a higher profile and narrower tyre.

This will work better AND be cheaper and easier to store (generally lighter).

The low profile, wide tyres are for sporty driving in warmer months and that is not the kind of driving you should be doing in poor weather.

Also you will find that is generally accepted to drop a speed rating for winter tyres as again you won’t be doing the maximum speed of the vehicle in the winter conditions.

But if you have a car with that size then your summer tyres are expensive anyway and running alternative tyres will make your summer tyres last longer. Especially as wheel spinning on ice will actually take a lot off your summer tyres (just look at the black rubber people leave on hard ice when trying to get up hills). Also I’m afraid if you choose a car with expensive wide tyres on large alloys you’ve only got yourself to blame for tyre costs.

andyl –

Stopping distances on ice from 20mph are 57m for winter tyres and 68m for sunner tyres – sorry but you’re hitting whatever it was that caused you to brake regardless of tyre.
On snow from 30mph – 35m and 43m respectively – again you’re hitting whatever it was that caused you to brake.

On dry roads from 62mph – winter tyres take longer to stop regardless of temperature,
On wet roads from 62mph – there’s maybe a 5m advantage to using winter tyres at low temperatures.

A few questions to think about:

What are folk doing driving at 20mph on sheet ice and 30mph on a road covered in snow?

When was the last time anyone had to do a full blown emergency stop at 62mph? What did you miss for this to happen?

Also – what’s hitting you from behind if you’re going from 62mph to 0mph in as little time as possible?

Glupton76, what technique for braking hard when a small child steps out in front of you? Any technique will have better results given and increase in grip when performing no?

Observation. Do you not look to see if there are small kids who could potentially walk out in front of you and take measures to minimise risk in normal driving? If I see kids on the pavement of an age where they could walk out without looking I ease off a bit and prepare to brake. Just like you would have been taught to when you learned to drive.

tbh just to play devils advocate i was doing nearer 50mph on powder with sheet ice under yesterday.

but without knowing the details as to why and what i was doing at the time ill let you all judge me.

After a very close shave about 5 years ago I have always used winter rated tyres.

On three cars we have used a combination of Nokian, Hankook & Marshall winter tyres in order of ability.

I have one car which has been running Hankook all season tyres for nearly two years and I find it the perfect fit , I live in a Cumbrian fellside village and travel on untreated roads.

They are not quite as good in deep snow but for all round mix of snow, slush and wet weather they are great, similar to Nokian WR G2’s but far better in summer.

The downside for winter tyres has always been if you swap tyres twice a year there is a big cost over the life of the tyre but you also often have a tyre that has 3-4mm on and there is little point having it refitted.

^£650 for four winter tyres – what size? I looked around in the summer for winter tyres and wheels and found a set of new steel wheels and good quality winter tyres for just over £500 – bearing in mind my normal tyres are 19″ – yours must be enormous!

Cheapest for mine from BlackCircles at 225/45R17 are Yokohama W.Drives at £95 each fitted. Mid-Range Dunlops are £125 each.

For the three days of snow and ice we get every year (and yes, I do live in a rural area) it just doesn’t make economic sense.

I have 2 sets of wheels, one with all-season Falkens on which I use in winter and are more than adequate. The other set is shod with Yokohama Parada Spec 2s which go on in April and come off at the end of October.

Never had an issue in snow with this system. But then I do know how to drive.

When was the last time anyone had to do a full blown emergency stop at 62mph? What did you miss for this to happen?

the suicidal tendencies of a dartmoor sheep…

glupton1976

Stopping distances on ice from 20mph are 57m for winter tyres and 68m for summer tyres – sorry but you’re hitting whatever it was that caused you to brake regardless of tyre.
On snow from 30mph – 35m and 43m respectively – again you’re hitting whatever it was that caused you to brake.

Although the speed you’re hitting it at will be somewhat different.

What are folk doing driving at 20mph on sheet ice and 30mph on a road covered in snow?

Lord only knows, but they do. The extra control given to me by my winter tyres *might* allow me to manouver to avoid them when them come unstuck across my path.

When was the last time anyone had to do a full blown emergency stop at 62mph? What did you miss for this to happen?

It might not be what you miss, it might be what the car ahead of you missed…

Also – what’s hitting you from behind if you’re going from 62mph to 0mph in as little time as possible?

Again, it might be the case that the extra control granted by winter tyres on cold roads would allow you to not just decelerate, but also to avoid whatever it is that has happened in front of you?

All this talk of braking distances – emergency braking aside, do people really actually use their brakes when driving on snow covered roads or ice?

for once I agree with you, well certainly on snow-covered roads! I’m sure driving sensibly on snow has got to be better than the re-frozen sludge that gritting causes. And would prevent a lot of people from venturing on the road. Also, people don’t realise that when it gets below -7 (as it has done recently) salted water re-freezes anyway, with a nice smooth sheen having briefly thawed. Fantastic.

They grit (as in grit, not salt + grit) in Norway so the ice has a lot of gravel embeded in it. They recently changed the law on tyres as they used to have mandatory studded tyres, but research showed that you only needed about half the cars driving with studs to tear up the ice enough to give some grip to the rest on normal snow tyres. So from that I’d assume the slushy frozen mess is better than compacted snow/ice as no one in this country can legaly use studded tyres as your not allowed them on cleared roads, and I’d struggle to think of a long journey involving completely uncleared roads.

What are folk doing driving at 20mph on sheet ice and 30mph on a road covered in snow?

Here in Scandinavia they could be fined for causing trouble by driving too slow on main roads…

All this talk of braking distances – emergency braking aside, do people really actually use their brakes when driving on snow covered roads or ice?

Of course, it is no issue on winter tyres.

so not buying winter tyres has the same effect on the STW masses as choosing to not wear a helmet?

It was a deer actually. First time I missed, second one the emergency stop continued with it wrapped around my power steering pump (it’d already come through the rad)…
However, If you’re going to adopt the approach that you’re such a wonder driver that nothing has ever surprised you in the (I’m assuming) 18 years you’ve been driving and caused you to hit the brakes, then really this is pointless. You’ll insist, I won’t believe and round and round in circles we’ll go.

“Norway so the ice has a lot of gravel embeded in it. They recently changed the law on tyres as they used to have mandatory studded tyres”

recently as in when and in what regions – the norwegian interns sitting with me know nothing of this.

they pay snow tax in regions of norway for having studded tires on for the damage caused to the road but people have them for gettign to their cabins in the hills.

glupton1976 – Member
andyl –

Stopping distances on ice from 20mph are 57m for winter tyres and 68m for sunner tyres – sorry but you’re hitting whatever it was that caused you to brake regardless of tyre.
On snow from 30mph – 35m and 43m respectively – again you’re hitting whatever it was that caused you to brake.

On dry roads from 62mph – winter tyres take longer to stop regardless of temperature,
On wet roads from 62mph – there’s maybe a 5m advantage to using winter tyres at low temperatures.

A few questions to think about:

What are folk doing driving at 20mph on sheet ice and 30mph on a road covered in snow?

When was the last time anyone had to do a full blown emergency stop at 62mph? What did you miss for this to happen?

Also – what’s hitting you from behind if you’re going from 62mph to 0mph in as little time as possible?

To address those points:

1. In poor conditions you drive slower and with a bit more care anyway so where you would be doing 60mph on a nice day in summer you obviously drive slower in winter regardless of having winter tyres. That reduces your stopping distance AND gives you more time to react.

2. Why am I still hitting the object with winter tyres? Has anyone said at what distance the object is and if I have a chance to steer around it? That couple of metres reduction or the ability to swerve safely could quite easily be the difference between a crash and a near miss.

3. I have very good summer tyres with good rain performance. I still prefer the winter tyres in winter regardless of the road conditions. The ones I have work very well and should the weather get worse/colder I am glad I have them on.

4. I have done quite a few emergency stops from around 60mph when there has been sudden unforeseeable events infront of me.

5. When you are doing a quick stop with winter tyres you always watch your rear view mirror for the idiot behind who is driving too close with crappy tyres and you are ready to swerve out of their way or back off the brakes if you can depending on what is in front of you. I would rather let the car behind run into the back of me while I am still moving and then stop both of us than get belted when stationary or run into an accident in front. Same goes for driving in summer rain in a car with very good tyres and very good brakes. The benefit of having more control means you have more options.

Most of us dont live in Scandinavia though.

In Finland new drivers must have done slippery conditions driving tuition before they can get their licence. Has no bearing on what happens in the UK though.

+1 for winter tyres.

I shall get a set put on aftermarket rims to save the annual inconvenience, risk of damage and expense of going to a garage.

Just a small matter of money though.

1. Might drive slower, but never with more care. Should always drive with complete care.

2. You’re still hitting it because there’s no way you’re looking 50 odd meters ahead at 20mph… Also – swerve safely on ice – you kidding me?

3. Very good summer tyres will have a high silica content so will not suffer the same deterioration in perfomance at lower temperatures.

4. Probably as a result of not taking complete care when driving in non-poor conditions.

5. You seriously look behind you when doing a quick stop? That is terrible driving. When pulling an energency stop you should never look behind you. 100% attention should be given to avoiding whatever it is caused the emergency.

You might benefit more by spending the next lot of winter tyre money on getting some instruction on how to improve your driving.

(GLupton 1976 – former driving intructor, instructor trainer and fleet)

what winter tires for daviot – drum of wartle road today ?

unimog!!!!!

Those bad boys should do it.