If you thought mandatory full facers were a pain for UKGE…

Sounds a bit like when I used to race Motocross 8 years ago, you bought a Personal Insurance cover or ‘License’ through the governing body (AMCA) at varying cost and levels of cover for death and disability and then paid for the third party insurance every time you entered a race in the race fee. On top of this an insurance company used to come around the paddock selling you optional personal accident insurance, which we all bought of course, as we always ended up in Hospital and could make a claim. More important if you were self employed.

Still, don’t think I’ll bother entering UKGE, I’ll just stick to PMBA instead!

Spoke to them for a quote- slightly confusing, but for a 52 year old non smoker househusband (only questions I was asked) cover was offered for £8 and £16 per month. Benefits basically cover death/disability, broken bones- no mention of income protection, but not applicable for me anyway. Death/disablement pays out £10.5k/21k, broken leg £2/4k, ribs/collarbone £600/1200.

And what about the logistics…?

SP states you must evidence your insurance when you enter. What happens for all the people that buy their insurance upfront then find their race(s) is sold out?? Presumably they’re left with a years worth of insurance they don’t want/need?

You could just buy some insurance from dogtag or whatever for the week like you do when you go to the alps etc?

@p7rich, this won’t help in all cases but I’d assume sports insurance is covered by the normal 14 day cooloff period- so you could arrange your cover, try and book your race, then if it falls through cancel. Obviously only works the first time you book for the year, though, so if you’re trying to book race by race it won’t really help.

I reckon it went something like this;
“‘ere, this sue culture is terrible. It’s gettin jus’ like ‘merica.”
“what if someone gets ‘urt at our race?”
“Oh shit, we could get sued and BC aren’t interested so…”
“Lets make ’em get insurance”
“GREAT IDEA! Put it on facebook”
“Job jobbed”
*open more beers*

Considering the lack of direction, I can’t imagine that the thought process went much further than that.

I’ve enjoyed the UKGE races I’ve entered and respect the work that’s gone into them, so I was trying to be tactful.

But…

@p7rich, this won’t help in all cases but I’d assume sports insurance is covered by the normal 14 day cooloff period- so you could arrange your cover, try and book your race, then if it falls through cancel. Obviously only works the first time you book for the year, though, so if you’re trying to book race by race it won’t really help.

Or if you were particulary cute, buy the policy pre entry, copy cert, cancel insurance & carry on as normal & present ‘fake’ certificate at point of signon.

The sensible thing to do now would be to put the plan into the stupid ideas box.

Particulary enjoying the default response of please contact our preferred supplier, and we can’t tell you why we insist this silly rule to be in place, but cough up anyway, otherwise you can’t race.

At least with the FF discussion they could half justify it based on safety. What i do with own personal insurance and financial situation has nothing to do with whether I want to race or not.

Still, they have done a great job of reducing potential entries next year. Of the 12 of my regular riding group who have done multiple UKGE races last year, none of us will now bother.

If nobody can give details on what insurance is required why not get a quote from their (ukge) preferred insurer.
Ask for what exactly you will be covered for.
Get this in their quote.
Use this quote as a basis for shopping around other insurance companies.
If that’s too much bother, there’s always other series for you.

I think this is a good year to sit the UKGE out for me! New baby is the real reason I’m not committing to racing but in the face of all this lot I’m not sure I’d bother anyway!

Anyway, I’m guessing the timing of BC’s decision to not support Enduro has caused some ripples of panic and Steve Parr and the team have had to come up with something to make sure everything’s adequetely covered very quickly which hasn’t necessarily been researched as much as it should. Delays in sorting something out could’ve had a greater impact on the series for instance at worst cas not being able to run events etc.
I don’t doubt as they learn things will settle down. Without a governing body to oversee the sport then there’s a certain amount of trial and error involved to find the best solution.

Fair play to Steve for putting his cock on the block and trying to do something.

As a side note, did anyone get appraoched by those two insurance sales goons at the Afan round last year?

Ok so I understand racers having liability insurance but surely the rest should be up to individuals?

Iolo, do we even if that’s the minimum cover?

Steve responded to a post on facebook;

Steve Parr: Rob, yeah covering your mugshot will be pretty expensive
Andy, if you contact Be spoke they will run through it all with you, their basic cover is spot on for Us.

So if someone can find out what ‘basic’ is then we have an answer. However given other insurance companies will have different t&c how is the man-on-the-street is supposed to determine if two policies are the same!?

As i see it youll only need cover for the event your doing, so you could buy it just before you enter and cancel after (assuming you dont claim). Bit of a mess by UKGE tho, even on FB the UKGE staff dont seem to know what is required or what another staff member has said.

I think Steve wants to set up an enduro federation , now that BC have pulled out
the stuff that theyve done with the enduro youth felowship thing is really cool

he asked all the other enduro organisers at a meeting (im picturing something out of the godfather here)

and i think that people agreed with the idea in principle

I think in steves vision that includes some sort of insurance ala motocross racing, but the other organisers not so sure

vinnyeh – Member
Spoke to them for a quote- slightly confusing, but for a 52 year old non smoker househusband (only questions I was asked) cover was offered for £8 and £16 per month. Benefits basically cover death/disability, broken bones- no mention of income protection, but not applicable for me anyway. Death/disablement pays out £10.5k/21k, broken leg £2/4k, ribs/collarbone £600/1200.

I’m sure that’s great and all that, but how does this actually help me or my family?

If i’m dead, i don’t think they are exactly going to be over the moon with £10.5k, and considering a broken leg would probably prevent me working for say at least 3 months £2k is pretty lame……

reward<risk, imo…….

If that’s too much bother, there’s always other series for you.

For most amateur racers it will be far too much bother and expense. They’ve implemented a rule, but they’re completely unable to tell you the details of this rule other than to contact their recommended broker for a quote. They will also be getting a % commission for every policy sold through their recommended broker…

I’m sure that’s great and all that, but how does this actually help me or my family?
If i’m dead, i don’t think they are exactly going to be over the moon with £10.5k, and considering a broken leg would probably prevent me working for say at least 3 months £2k is pretty lame……

Or in my case I’m already covered for over 10x that if I were to Cark it riding my bike through my life insurance and I’d not be out of pocket if I broke my leg anyway. So the cover is useless for me and wouldn’t prevent me sueing the organisers in the event that they’d been negligent which led to the injury in the 1st place.

I’m sure that’s great and all that, but how does this actually help me or my family?

If i’m dead, i don’t think they are exactly going to be over the moon with £10.5k, and considering a broken leg would probably prevent me working for say at least 3 months £2k is pretty lame……

I’m with you there. The level of cover is minuscule in comparison with the financial impact of one of the injuries.

They will also be getting a % commission for every policy sold through their recommended broker…

This is the kicker, isn’t it. And the newly appointed riders’ representative works for the preferred supplier .

There is a lot of talk on the FB page about how it helps you if your out of work etc. However as shown above, the basic cover level doesnt even include loss of earnings.

Also, SP previously stated BC gold licence would cover you, then had to retract once he was told it was only applicable to BC events. How can you be involved in the sport that closely for that long and not know that basic fact!

They will also be getting a % commission for every policy sold through their recommended broker…

Apparently they recommend them as its ‘easier to confirm you have the right cover’ even tho they dont seem to know what the right cover is and dont legally have the right to ask them anyway. Apparently (again another FB comment/response hidden amongst other comments) you’re required to bring the actual letter of cover to sign-on if you use another insurer, so they can check it to see you have the right cover… not that they can tell you what the right level of cover is…. Farse anyone?

SP previously stated BC gold licence would cover you, then had to retract once he was told it was only applicable to BC events. How can you be involved in the sport that closely for that long and not know that basic fact!

More like how can you not be arsed to read BC’s own website. It took me about 2 minutes to find this:

Personal Accident Insurance – the details
…includes non-competitive, social, leisure and utility cycling and competitive cycling in events held under the auspices of British Cycling. Cover is also provided whilst participating in competitive events held under the auspices of other cycling organisations whose rules and regulations (including Event Safety Guidelines) are acceptable to British Cycling.

like most of the BC rules and regs ^^^ thats quite misleading, as I understand it UKGE are still using the same event safety guidelines that BC insisted upon for the previous seasons,

BC have since said it wont be covered

But why should bc’s website be any more accurate than UKGE’s[/url] dragon

Section 5, safety equipment…

C. A full face helmet is NOT compulsory, but it is highly recommended. – See more at: http://www.ukgravityenduro.com/race-info/rules/#.dpuf

I’ll now go ready my self to be shot down when it transpires I missed the “oh bugger it, wear what you like ” conclusion to that.

^^^ that does say 2014 rules at the top, but they should update it!

Email from Enduro1 series;

As many of you are aware the question of riders having to take out personal race insurance is now becoming a reality. I am looking into this matter as I agree it needs to be done as unfortunately with British Cycling now not supporting Enduro the emphasis is now on race organises having to obtain their own public liability insurance which covers them and not the competitors for accidents.

Unfortunately in this litigious society too many riders are now injuring themselves and then suing the race organisers insurance company despite the fact they have willingly taken part in a sport and race format that is considered dangerous and without making sure they are covered by their own personal accident cover for loss of earnings. If this continues then the simple truth is that we organises will not be able to obtain insurance and therefore there will be no more races as the amount of income derived from insuring us is minuscule compared to potential payouts for insurance companies.

I will only be opening entries once I have looked into all possibilities and the costs to the competitor.

Anyone know of an enduro race organiser being sued in the UK? If not, it’s irrelevant. BC is gone, it’s something that is no longer a cost to the organisers so they had better amend their prices to suit.

It does reek of ‘paedeatrician has paedo graffiti sprayed on his door’ stories, treated as gospel, but never happened. I’ve never heard of a rider suing an organiser and you’d think it would be major news on all the obvious cycling sites. Anyone seen owt?

2011 a Canadian cyclist sued a race organiser for $20 million when he sustained injuries in the event, don’t know how it ended but it was in the news at the time.

It comes up on Google as one of the first results.

There was a woman in the US who sued a “Super D” race organiser recently. That’s the best I can do you…
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/12/fallen_tree_causes_portland_mo.html

Anyway, the man has spoken (on FB)…

Firstly I’m sorry some of you are upset by the “Insurance” requirement for 2015, there is no going back on this.
We will however make it more clear as to the Exact requirement of the Insurance, no later than Monday, sorry for the confusion.
Since we announced this, there have been some great comments on here, as usual, some have made us look even harder at Insurance. One comment in particular made Us go away and check the BC members handbook, we found out that unless the event is sanctioned by BC your Insurance cover is Nul and void.
Your BC Gold, Silver membership and race license is now nul & void if you race Enduro in the UK. This is a very sad day for Me as I have always believed and trusted in the Governing body of my chosen sport.
The Insurance company inform me there have been a large number of enquiries regarding cover, I hope this has put peoples minds at ease?
Please go away and enjoy your weekends riding

Your BC Gold, Silver membership and race license is now nul & void if you race Enduro in the UK.

???
So your forfeit your membership of BC by racing enduro?
I though you’d just not be covered by the insurance for that event?

Are you willing to personally under write an event in case of a negligent litigation against it ,on the basis that….’well no one has done it (that I am aware of) before in this country?’
That’s what you’re expecting the organiser to do…
Also

That’s what you’re expecting the organiser to do…

Nobody’s expecting anything. An organiser is claiming that it has, and if it hasn’t (in the UK) then they’re wrong and the basis for their reasoning for insurance is crap.

awaits minienduro email saying the same thing

So your forfeit your membership of BC by racing enduro?
I though you’d just not be covered by the insurance for that event?

I think this is miss leading as I’m sure as you say it only means your BC insurance doesn’t cover you for the event, see below for organisations where you are.

The following organisations promote competitive events under rules and regulations (including Event Safety Guidelines) that are acceptable to British Cycling(6):
Scottish Cycling (Scottish Cyclists’ Union)
Welsh Cycling (Welsh Cycling Union)
Cycling Time Trials (CTT)
BSCA (British Schools Cycling Association)
BUCS (British Universities & Colleges Sport)
UCI affiliated National Governing Bodies

When BC washed it’s hands of enduro (and this was on the cards pretty much from day 1) this was the inevitable outcome.
No one seems quite so bothered about them rescinding insurance cover for uplift days….which is partly the reason why a 1/3rd of the top 25 wc dh’ers come from the uk.

There’s any number of possibilities for the organiser/event insurer getting claimed against because of a rider’s accident but not directly by the rider – most obviously as a result of ambulance chasers becoming involved or if some other body stumps up for the costs incurred and seeks to recoup.

Sadly, I think the insurance just needs to be accepted unless someone has a brilliant method of shutting down the entire personal injury claim industry – and note that there’s been mutterings over the last few years of having the costs of air ambulances and seach/rescue type operations for people engaged in mountain and outdoor pursuits in the UK charged to the person rescued although they’ve come to nothing so far. After reading into the insurance a bit and discovering that depending what you buy it might cover you for all riding and not just races, I’m considering this anyway even though I’m not playing UKGE this year…

How long before we hear of impoverished MTBers on their poverty 26’ers deliberately rear ending trees to fund shiney new bikes? (joke!)

wrecker – Member

So your forfeit your membership of BC by racing enduro?
I though you’d just not be covered by the insurance for that event?

I just posted on their facebook, but, I reckon it’s a non-issue… It looks like it goes back to all that UCI rule 1.2.019 madness

“No licence holder may participate in an event that has not been included on a national, continental or world calendar or that has not been recognised by a national federation, a continental confederation or the UCI”

BC have to implement UCI rules, but the UCI themselves have put a moratorium on that particular rule. If I’m right, then it’s on the rulebooks but not enforced. I don’t have a BC licence any more so I can’t really chase this but if you’ve got a licence and you’re concerned, drop ’em a line, I think it’ll be fine.

dragon – Member

So your forfeit your membership of BC by racing enduro?
I though you’d just not be covered by the insurance for that event?

I think this is miss leading as I’m sure as you say it only means your BC insurance doesn’t cover you for the event, see below for organisations where you are.

The following organisations promote competitive events under rules and regulations (including Event Safety Guidelines) that are acceptable to British Cycling(6):
Scottish Cycling (Scottish Cyclists’ Union)
Welsh Cycling (Welsh Cycling Union)
Cycling Time Trials (CTT)
BSCA (British Schools Cycling Association)
BUCS (British Universities & Colleges Sport)
UCI affiliated National Governing Bodies

… so BC basically raises the finger to mountain biking? Nice to know. So glad I didn’t renew my membership this year.

Why don’t UKGE go down the route of LVRC, have gone it would make life easier for everyone i.e. you need to become a member of LVRC to race and then LVRC take out insurance. TBH pretty similar to BC really.

Please go away

Well I never!!1!!

It’s still not clear why they feel this is necessary, 3rd party cover is provided anyway, this is personal accident cover which is nice but it doesn’t provide any cover to the organisers and doesn’t prevent riders seeking to recover damages against the organisers. I could see that maybe it’s a requirement of their 3rd party insurance, but at the moment there is no reason and very little benefit to this.

To many people it’s as relevant as saying you’ve got to turn up in a vw T5 and here’s our preferred supplier, except most enduro competitors appear to have one anyway.