If you thought mandatory full facers were a pain for UKGE…

I may be completely wrong here but it doesn’t seem to hinder anyone else…

If I’m the insurance/compo seeking sort and I go to an organised event, I have an accident, I’m/a spectator is injured, I out the spectator is going to claim on the events insurance, whether I have my own or not.

Why would having my own insurance change that? Yes it’s an inherently dangerous activity but I don’t believe they can in any way indemnify them selves against personal injury from a legal stand point and disclaimers are worth less than the ink they’re signed with.

Insurance is risk based, at this point somebody higher up than boardin bob has gone risk, outdoors, racing, stuff and put 2+2=9 on the form. Couple this with the Llangollen incident and you can see what’s going on. We do t understand but reckon it’s like this without as many safeguards (I remember Sif Pattons we need Marshalls posts) so hence it’s hard to insure. If you want to make insurance mandatory make sure that you have the most competitive policy on offer and you tell people what they need to do as an alternative.

Boardinbob, if you work at the business end of insurance you’ll be well placed to shoot me down but, my impression is, these days if you can’t categorically prove you couldn’t have removed the risk then you’ll get no win no fee lawyers chasing you for anything with a chance of significant payout.

If enduro has half the marshals of Dh and twice the distance surely there is a significant risk the the organisers could reduce, making it costly enough to defend against a claim that no one will, they’ll just settle.

Death is a big chunk of a payout for an insurance company, especially a spectator’s (who won’t have insurance) and they’ll have less chance of defeating a claim at an enduro with less safety checks in place. And as most of the enduroists keep telling us an enduro is downhill with transitions so is just as much risk per mile as full Dh

If enduro has half the marshals of Dh

That would be a significant improvement

like the helmet rule, UKGE will be the only race organiser in the UK that are making PI compulsory

FWIW, PI means Professional Indemnity in insurance circles, I assume what’s being required is PA, or Personal Accident insurance, as 3rd party is already covered. This is confusing enough already, without folk thinking they need PI insurance!

This is confusing enough already, without folk thinking they need PI insurance!

What about the pros?

They have the same need as any for liability insurance, but it’s the mechanics that would potentially need PI insurance – their mistake could injure a rider.

it’s the mechanics that would potentially need PI insurance – their mistake could injure a rider.

So if I do my own wrenching I need PI?

Sorry no need for that beyond the fact I couldn’t resist

Enduro was ment to be a racing format based on the type of riding we all do for fun , it was meant to be accessible for people who fancied racing but felt full on downhill and xc were a bit much . I understand ukge is selling itself as the national series and difficulty levels and requirements will reflect that but I hope they don’t forget what made enduro appealing in the first place

Death is a big chunk of a payout for an insurance company

Life insurance is cheap to buy and MASSIVELY profitable for insurers.

Read into that what you will.

UKGE: Yeah Public liability, loss of earnings and whatever they need to get back right, we’re currently looking into that.

Sounds like “yeah, some insurance, don’t know what really, but definitely insurance. Insurance is good”.

Completely clueless. Let’s just think about income protection – how are they going to check “whatever they need to get back right”? I rock up at an event with insurance that covers, say, £15K of income in the event of critical injury. Without knowing whether I’m a single student with no dependants, a lottery winner with more money in the bank than I could ever possibly spend, or a married person with loads of kids, a huge salary and a mortgage to match, how are they going to assess whether I’m “adequately covered”? They can’t. They’re making this up as they go along.

here is the answer to my question;

Hi Phil,
Although Bespoke Insurance is our preferred provider, you can source your insurance elsewhere we are not tying you in to anything. Any insurance will need to cover you for taking part in competitive races. You will need to prove to us (send us copies of your certificate of insurance) that you adequately covered

That is only an answer to your question if your question didn’t seek any further information. “insurance…for taking part in competitive races” – such as? “adequately covered” – adequate, defined how? As I said, they’re making this up as they go along.

Insurance is a personal choice. If someone chooses not to insure themselves or their livelihood, it’s got nothing to do with UKGE. They’re perfectly entitled to deny entry to anyone who’s not insured, but it’s a bizarre stance particularly when there are zero guidelines around what insurance is actually needed.

ukge is selling itself as the national series

Does anyone else think it is?

Life insurance maybe cheap bob, but if I’m not mistaken it’ll be public liability that is looking to payout if a spectator or competitor is injured or killed.

wrecker – Member

ukge is selling itself as the national series

Does anyone else think it is? It is the national series and they are great races. This is simple like the full face rule, if you don’t like it look else where. There is loads of choice!

Life insurance maybe cheap bob, but if I’m not mistaken it’ll be public liability that is looking to payout if a spectator or competitor is injured or killed

They’ve stated on FB that 3rd party liability is included already in the race entrance, so anything they’re making competitors buy will be personal insurance.

Life insurance maybe cheap bob, but if I’m not mistaken it’ll be public liability that is looking to payout if a spectator or competitor is injured or killed.

You’ve got that anyway, this is on top of that.

Edit: too slow!

Sorry bob, misdirected there, my point as for cost & public liability was to do with your not understanding what a death at a Dh race has to do with enduro, not what sort of insurance riders would require.

Rather, that the cost of that insurance likely went through the roof when the worst actually happened rather than being a slight possiblity. Hence Bc no longer wanting to do it.

edlong – there was further information

Please contact our preferred insurance supplier Bespoke Financial, who will detail the level of cover, you can then go and see if you can get this elsewhere if you prefer.

So as I understand it there is a defined level of cover (as offered by Bespoke)that any alternative will have to match.

I have asked them for a quote, so I guess when that turns up things will be a little clearer (maybe!)

Matthew January 8, 2015
Hi Mark,
You need personal accident cover that covers you whilst taking part in a competitive (mtb) race. Whilst the merits of this could be discussed at length it is a requirement of your entry. So if you do not wish to purchase it then you will not be able to take part in our events.
– See more at: http://www.ukgravityenduro.com/entries-2015-ukge-personal-insurance-2/#.dpuf

Doesn’t specify what kind if insurance, to be pedantic. So on the face of it the fact I have home insurance would qualify me.

ah but home insurance with the “right” cover. Actually, pet insurance might be better…..

Its a serious point, because the reason they are requesting insurance is to cover their backside, yet if it went to court obviously my home insurance wouldn’t be interested, thus their backside isn’t actually covered.

Hi Mark,
You need personal accident cover that covers you whilst taking part in a competitive (mtb) race. Whilst the merits of this could be discussed at length it is a requirement of your entry. So if you do not wish to purchase it then you will not be able to take part in our events.

End of story.

If you don’t want to purchase cover…you don’t race. Its their event

Rather, that the cost of that insurance likely went through the roof when the worst actually happened rather than being a slight possiblity. Hence Bc no longer wanting to do it.

So again, the death occured at a DH race, yet they stop sponsoring enduro?

it reeks of money/ power/ influence rather than any real concerns over risk management.

Enduro was ment to be a racing format based on the type of riding we all do for fun , it was meant to be accessible for people who fancied racing but felt full on downhill and xc were a bit much . I understand ukge is selling itself as the national series and difficulty levels and requirements will reflect that but I hope they don’t forget what made enduro appealing in the first place

I agree with this but I think the shark may have been jumped

Its a serious point, because the reason they are requesting insurance is to cover their backside, yet if it went to court obviously my home insurance wouldn’t be interested, thus their backside isn’t actually covered.

Are they going to have some commissaire at every race going over everyone’s home insurance policy that they’re using as “insurance” to check the T&C’s for exclusions and sums insured? 😆

I don’t really have any skin in this game, as not likely to enter any of the series, but you would think they would have learned a bit about getting communication right after all the discussions that kicked off around the helmet rule.

How hard can it be to state the minimum requirements (arguments about NHS cover etc. notwithstanding) so people can easily check existing policies. Why should I have to phone their broker so that I can cross reference my existing annual policy that covers mountain bike racing.

Tinfoil hat mode : I wonder if Bespoke insure the events as well. Nice way to offset the insurance bill 🙂

Fortunately I’m insured against unexpected insurance requirements.

Now, the motorbike enduro outfit I ride with sometimes require the purchase of “day licences” to race if you’re not a member – it’s an insurance thing, and they cost £3. So this is the way a series such as GE should end up going, join the club/series and get a licence for the year or bung them a few quid per race.

Oh, fuel to the fire – you sometimes see people riding in MC enduros in open face lids. (Usually on trials bikes.)

I can’t find anything about Bespoke financial on t’internet. Anyone else any wiser? I’d like my cynicism to be justified.

Sounds a crap way of doing things, why not make some kind of license compulsory if they want to go down the insurance route.

I don’t blame BC from ridding themselves of these jokers.

This lot?

http://bespokefinance.eu/

UKGE say insurance starting from £2 a week? Which seems a really odd way of quoting insurance for specific events.

I can’t find anything about Bespoke financial on t’internet. Anyone else any wiser? I’d like my cynicism to be justified.

You have to google “bespoke financial services Newcastle” or something similar. Its a trading name of some other company

This lot?

No its this lot

Home

Which seems a really odd way of quoting insurance for specific events.

Sounds a lot better than £104 a year. That’s almost as much as my car insurance!

So again, the death occured at a DH race, yet they stop sponsoring enduro?
it reeks of money/ power/ influence rather than any real concerns over risk management.

To me sounds less to do with any of those things and more to do with, we had this horrible accident, we can’t stop it but we can toughen up on standards, enduro doesn’t adhere to the existing Dh ones which is the discipline is most like, so it’s an accident waiting to happen and we’re not going to play.” nothing at all to stop you running five concurrent Dh races with xc races in between, getting Bc to insure those individual events, and it being an enduro except your enduro wouldn’t get near their requirements for insurance

It would be interesting to know how the additional dh requirements would actually help. I don’t really see how extra marshalls could stop a rider crashing into the crowds and killing someone

Boardinbob – I am not proposing that the death at the DH race led directly to BC not insuring Enduro any more, I am saying it is part of a picture of things that likely hardened minds to a worst case scenario, and how much responsibility for what happens at an event rests with them.

Interestingly, the Scottish Government Review of Motor Sport Safety, called as a result of the Jim Clark rally deaths has just reported. Among other things, they have recommended marshals are trained and certified prior to taking up their posts.

(and yes Bob, I know that Car Rallying isn’t Enduro, but just go with me, what happens in one sport will influence the views of Police, LA H&S bods etc, FCS, all the folk who have a say in how events are run)

So things like double taping sections, exclusion zones etc – these realistically only work with marshal’s in place to enforce them.

The death at Llangollen was a tragic accident and will impact on all cycle sport stuff in the uk.
Parr in an interview was suggesting that enduro is nearer xc than dh – the ones I’ve done certainly aren’t.

BC have looked at all the risks after the incident and under their guides enduro would be a gravity sport and would need to fit in to the rules of that e.g. line of sight between marshal, full taping etc. That’s not practical for enduro and there aren’t enough commissaires in the UK for dh races let alone all the extra enduro stuff.

The issue with marshals is that you could be lying dead/crippled/having a strop somewhere on stage and no one will be any the wiser.

Now if you want to start a conspiracy…… Helen Gaskell was made rider rep yesterday, today the company she works for is the go to place for enderpo insurance