If you thought mandatory full facers were a pain for UKGE…

How they can make you take out PI insurance is a bit grey, but having it is not a bad idea, and would hope most riders would decide to do that on their own (but if not, that’s ok too, your body and all that), especially if they are racing the full series.

PA, PI is something totally different – in case you do start looking for quotes or owt!

If you did a straw poll of people racing in XC, DH, Enduro or road (where more injuries/fatalities happen) I’ll wager the proportion of people with PA insurance is minute. I’ve never considered it, I don’t know anyone who has frankly!

Yeah because Enduro organisers know everything there is about race organisation? Bike racing has been happening in the UK for over 100 years, it is arrogance to think you can’t learn anything from established organisations.

And the UK is just one sector of global bike racing. I know from several coversations with Steve that he’s taken a lot of advice and input from other Enduro organisers worldwide – it’s a difficult format to run, and a very different beast to XC/DH in organisational terms, so I would say that it definitely isn’t arrogant to not base the logistical aspects on a UK event.

But we’re going round in circles – these are the rules. Either accept and enter or don’t.

andyrm – Member

But we’re going round in circles – these are the rules. Either accept and enter or don’t.

It’s not that simple is it? I’ve already taken my money elsewhere, but these things have the potential to have a wider effect. Especially with Steve placing himself at the head of the planned federation, with his image of enduro that’s so different to everyone else’s.

Enduro has always been the event that’s most like many people’s riding, that’s what hooked me, and that’s still the best thing about it. Except here’s the most visible series working hard to become the most expensive racing in the country, with the biggest barriers to entry, the highest insurance requirements, kit requirements that are the same as downhill… To be seen as more extreme and dangerous and unapproachable than it is.

Does anyone even know what Steve’s vision of ENDURO actually is? Kimbers was going on about “harder tracks” somewhere above, but then you see they’re going back to the likes of Hamsterley- pretty sure I spent more time queuing than riding at the last one there.

We were aiming to set up a Federation for 2015

Wow, a Federation? That’s how much enduro has matured. Only last year is might have been a Crew or a syndicate but not now. It’s big time baby, and big time babies need insurance.

Regardless of this insurance nonsense, anyone who spends their free time organising events for others to enjoy gets a thumbs up from me.

Especially with Steve placing himself at the head of the planned federation

I hope it will be someone independent Northwind – How are you fixed? 😉

One of the things that attracted me to start Enduro racing was the inclusiveness and openness. Look at the EWS and as NW said as long as you can work the website you are good to go and mince it with the best.

The stance that UKGE seems to be taking is the opposite. It seems they want to make an elite series where inclusiveness and openness are not really on the agenda.

Maybe I’m wrong to think that if you are building a national series, that is to be the face of the sport in the UK they should at least explain their actions.

I think this is sad and I hope other series don’t go in this direction.

scottfitz – Member

I hope it will be someone independent Northwind – How are you fixed?

Well I’ve got a lot of internet arguing and furious masturbating on just now but maybe I could make the time.

Hels for president!

Simple solution, you could fiddle the accounts so you could also fiddle with a few high class fluffers, this would save you doing your own masturbation, Northwind for El presidente!

So,
if I’m not doing UKGE, what events can I support?

Right, if you can’t beat em join them…

I’m going to launch my very own Enduro specific insurance brand.
The policy will be £6.50 for the year
It will cover stuff*
There is a number event organisers can call to verify the policy**
We guarantee that the policy excess will be greater than the cost of any claim
Each new policy will receive a Santa Cruz Nomad XX1 with Enve Wheels***
All policies underwritten by the Bank of Rich Princes, Nigeria

*Stuff may be changed without notice
** Between 3am and 3:30am every 3rd Tuesday calls cost £5/min (we also speak slowly so you can understand it all
*** Subject to a £10k administration and delivery payment paid either in cash or PP Gift

So,
if I’m not doing UKGE, what events can I support?

Lots to choose from depending where you based! off to of my head

Scotland: SES, Nofuss, Fair city enduro & Tweedlove.
England: PMBA, Enduro1, Mini enduro/Night enduro, QECP, Spike sports, pearce enduro, ND(H)uro & Ard rock.
Wales: red kite, Penmachno & epic cymru.
National: UKGE
Worldwide: EWS
Lots more too I geuss

if I’m not doing UKGE, what events can I support?

Being the UKs EWS contribution, Tweedlove is the top UK enduro event.

Lots of mentions of using free-time to run the series. Does anyone know if the UKGE is registered as not-for-profit like the SDA series? I didn’t think it was

mikewsmith must be the most honest organiser ever, as I can read the small print 😀 Seems a bargain I’m in 😉

People saying don’t like it don’t enter seem to be missing the big picture. If this idiot at UKGE runs a series where everyone pays £100 a year for insurance that, unless they are self employed, people don’t need then it sets a precedent. If other race organisers start doing it off the back of it then it has an impactr on all racing in the UK in all disciplines for races outside BC jurisdiction.

I race what enduro was before what enduro is now stole the name- 24 hour races, 12 hour etc. I race at least 2 of these a year. Sometimes I have raced the innnerleithen modern enduro events and the no fuss ones, I think I have done around 6 modern enduro events in the last 2 years. If, because Steve Parr had a daft idea that people copied, or he forced upon everyone in the federation he invented, I then have to pay an extra £100 a year on top of the £100 or so I pay in entry fees for these races then I will not be doing any racing. None. Nor will other casual racers. Then you end up with a sport blossoming elsewhere and dying in the UK because one bloke with no PR skills didn’t engage his brain.

So, no, as someone who hasn’t taken part in a ukge I am not willing to let this happen, and Parr should listen to the community that is calling for him to scrap the idea before it gets out of hand.

I race what enduro was before what enduro is now stole the name- 24 hour races, 12 hour etc.

No you didnt, you raced endurance events.

Enduro took its name from motorcycle enduros which work on the rallying format of timed special stages with transfer stages that are not timed.

Motorcycle enduros have been running since 1913….MTB races have not.

Dah dah dah dah! From Charlie on the UKGE facebook

“The minimum requirement for personal insurance to race the 2015 UK Gravity Enduro series is…. Personal Accident cover that covers you for Competitive Mountain biking in the UK, at a minimum covering Death, disablement and broken bones (The level of these is dependant on the individuals needs but the minimum an insurance company will quote you for is all we require) if you wish to cover yourself for more ie: Personal liability, Income protection or just increase the level of cover, then that is up to you and what you can afford or deem necessary. I cannot advise you where to buy it from”

Awesome looks like I’ll amend the terms of my policy to offer £1 maximum cover for Death OR Disablement OR Broken bones.

So basically they don’t care what insurance, or if it covers you for anything really so long as you get a bit of paper that looks official….

Same as the Dr’s note for the mega

Just waiting for the next little UKGE gem of a PR disaster.

In order to be able to race what is the premier series in the UK, we have decided that compulsory back protectors must be worn. This is what they do with some of the SuperEnduro races, and well, being the best demands that we do this too. Therefore for 2015 you must wear one when racing. I am pleased to announce our preferred supplier EVOC will be able to sell you some massively overpriced rucksack with a hard bit of rubber for this purpose in various N-Duro approved colourways

“The minimum requirement for personal insurance to race the 2015 UK Gravity Enduro series is…. Personal Accident cover that covers you for Competitive Mountain biking in the UK, at a minimum covering Death, disablement and broken bones (The level of these is dependant on the individuals needs but the minimum an insurance company will quote you for is all we require) if you wish to cover yourself for more ie: Personal liability, Income protection or just increase the level of cover, then that is up to you and what you can afford or deem necessary. I cannot advise you where to buy it from”

At last a coherent, sensible comment from UKGE. All we need now is weekly/monthly cover by a sensible ensures.

Enduro took its name from motorcycle enduros which work on the rallying format of timed special stages with transfer stages that are not timed.

But incidentally bears very little resemblance to the sport from which it took it’s name.
That’s besides the point though.

So, finally a declaration of the cover required- basically you need a policy to cover certain risks, but no minimum cover, and no definition of those risks. So all the stuff about protecting the rider and their interests is a load of bullshit.

@wrecker
Reading it you just need to find a broker that will do the “joke” policy I put up there, call a couple there may be an admin fee but if you tell them they will sell 300 policies they will probably do it.

Anyway if this doesn’t highlight that it’s a completely stupid rule that means nothing to the rider or the organiser then I don’t know what does. Which may be why you should also never say never….

I still don’t get why it is needed.

Someone suggested that individuals insuring themselves for a Personal Accident limit the liability of future claims from the organiser. ie, if I insure myself for a £900 payout for a broken back, then I value my back at £900 and if I make a claim from the organisers insurance then their liability is limited to what I insured myself for.

is that credible? I can see some logic to it, but not sure of the ins and outs. it would explain why its a requirement if its a prerequisite of the event insurance for the competitors have PA to limit liability claims.

is that credible

That’s subrogation. Splitting the sum insured by various liable insurers. It doesn’t limit the ultimate liability for negligence.

Example A – you’re riding along the course and have a fall that’s entirely your fault. You can only claim under your own insurance up to the maximum sum insured.

Example B – You’re riding along the course and its been poorly taped resulting in you riding off a cliff and breaking your back. You can claim under your insurance and they will look to subrogate some or all of the payout from the event insurers. In addition as the insurers were negligent in their course taping, you can go after them and their insurers for damages IN ADDITION to whatever your maximum payout from your insurer was

No it doesn’t limit the ultimate liability, but its bound have an effect on the amount paid out isn’t it?

Could it be used by the event insurer to reduce their overall risk, therefore making the event insurance cheaper?

just a thought.

Neb – Member

No it doesn’t limit the ultimate liability, but its bound have an effect on the amount paid out isn’t it?

Nope, no effect at all. It’s basically 2 totally separate issues. The only place the personal insurance and UKGE’s liability insurance will come into contact is if/when someone claims against their personal insurance and the insurance subsequently claims against UKGE.

“The minimum requirement for personal insurance to race the 2015 UK Gravity Enduro series is…. Personal Accident cover that covers you for Competitive Mountain biking in the UK, at a minimum covering Death, disablement and broken bones (The level of these is dependant on the individuals needs but the minimum an insurance company will quote you for is all we require) if you wish to cover yourself for more ie: Personal liability, Income protection or just increase the level of cover, then that is up to you and what you can afford or deem necessary. I cannot advise you where to buy it from

so get £1 cover for death, disablement and broken bones will be accepted then.

BoardinBob – Member

is that credible
That’s subrogation. Splitting the sum insured by various liable insurers. It doesn’t limit the ultimate liability for negligence.

Example A – you’re riding along the course and have a fall that’s entirely your fault. You can only claim under your own insurance up to the maximum sum insured.

Example B – You’re riding along the course and its been poorly taped resulting in you riding off a cliff and breaking your back. You can claim under your insurance and they will look to subrogate some or all of the payout from the event insurers. In addition as the insurers were negligent in their course taping, you can go after them and their insurers for damages IN ADDITION to whatever your maximum payout from your insurer was

Example C: your riding along and come across a “feature” which is way beyond your ability. You say to yourself, f-it it’s a race have a go. Doesn’t end well and you need helicoptered off the hill!
You entered an event that the organiser has no way of knowing what your skill level is?
What now?
For reference just watch the video that pops up now and again from the Ae event a few years ago. In the event blurb there are assurances that the events are suitable for all abilities(other events do the same) They also say that competitors safety is priority. Watching that video should maybe make people think again(BC obviously did) It might be funny to watch but someone could have been seriously hurt.
Other events are equally guilty of similar advertising and risk assessment offences imo 😉

Watching that video should maybe make people think again(BC obviously did) It might be funny to watch but someone could have been seriously hurt.
Other events are equally guilty of similar advertising and risk assessment offences imo

Ah the first round where we used a fresh cut track after a downpour and the last exit into the finish was a bit tricky and unnerving for those expecting the level advertised where the organiser chose to mock those struggling into the finish…..

Well BC carried on working with them for 3 years after that so they can’t have been that upset !

And all stages were risk assessed by BC comissionaire b4 the race !

Example C:

This is where we get into really tricky ground. Surprisingly, unless I’ve totally missed it, I’ve never seen a disclaimer at any race I’ve done. In fact the only time I’ve ever signed one is on uplift days.

For scenario c, you’d need some pretty strong legal arguments and evidence to back up what is rideable etc. It gets really messy down this road.

For reference just watch the video that pops up now and again from the Ae event a few years ago. In the event blurb there are assurances that the events are suitable for all abilities(other events do the same) They also say that competitors safety is priority. Watching that video should maybe make people think again(BC obviously did) It might be funny to watch but someone could have been seriously hurt.

This video?…looks bloody brilliant to me!

That was one of the better bits….

edit bearing in mind at this stage the series was advertised as being based on trail centre red trails, several people fitted spikes before that stage

BoardinBob – Member

This is where we get into really tricky ground. Surprisingly, unless I’ve totally missed it, I’ve never seen a disclaimer at any race I’ve done. In fact the only time I’ve ever signed one is on uplift days.

Disclaimers are pretty meaningless in UK law unfortunately. And in some cases can be unhelpful apparently- if the organiser makes you sign a bit of paper that says “this is dangerous” then they’re conceding that it’s dangerous. (in a similiar vein, the forestry commission don’t like putting up warning signs)

Trekster’s hit an interesting point there- I don’t think there was anything wrong with the track itself (there’s a line between “hard” and “unsafe”, you can have a dangerous easy track). But, IIRC at the time UKGE were still selling it as a sport for all abilities, they had tons of stuff about XC and red routes on the website, presumably to increase the numbers. There were stories of people turning up to that race with anthems and lycra and going home after practicing one track. It was doubly a problem in those early days when most people had no idea what an enduro was, though some organisers are still pretty guilty of it.

In terms of legality I wonder where they’d have stood if someone had spannered themselves on a hard section after entering a race described as being easier.

Innerleithen MTB had what struck me as a clever tactic, every race said “full face not mandatory”. Set the scene better than a thousand words- it’s not downhill because you don’t need a full face, but it’s not like XC because we wouldn’t even be talking about full face if it was. But then they were always well ahead of the crowd.

Ah let’s just be honest, everything I like about the UKGE is stuff they copied wholesale from Innerleithen MTB, everything I dislike about it is stuff they came up with themselves 😆

Example C:

There’s practice. Everyone’s already ridden all the trails and walked/checked out teh gnarly linez. If they haven’t they haven’t taken reasonable precaution, liability’s on the rider.

bearing in mind at this stage the series was advertised as being based on trail centre red trails, several people fitted spikes before that stage

Seems eminently sensible to me, i’ve been running a Dirty Dan spike on the front of my hardtail all winter.

See this is the problem….people are buying 140-170mm bikes that are being advertised as All-Mountain/Enduro, which they are.

…but then said riders are spending the bulk of their time at trail centres with weatherproofed trails and running around on semi slick tyres all year….it’s no wonder they then come a cropper when faced with challenging freshly cut stuff!

monkeyfudger – Member

There’s practice. Everyone’s already ridden all the trails and walked/checked out teh gnarly linez. If they haven’t they haven’t taken reasonable precaution, liability’s on the rider.

I can’t see that standing up tbh, especially since practice isn’t mandatory, and it’s possible to spanner yourself in practice too. If you give someone misleading information on difficulty levels, you’re on pretty thin ice.

deviant – Member

Seems eminently sensible to me, i’ve been running a Dirty Dan spike on the front of my hardtail all winter.

Think you’re missing the main point there- it’s not so much that the trail merited proper mud tyres, it’s that people were led to expect red-route type stuff by the advertising. By no means unique to UKGE of course, “it’s the enduro stupid”, but they had the extra issue of wildly different difficulties at different rounds, so people had expectations from other races.

Deviant does seem to read the bits of people’s argument he wants to pick apart, not the following justification.

Yep the pick and choose hear what you like response or “Parr lite”

Anyway at least the situation is clear, you need insurance that covers you for the least amount available as we said we would never go back on our decision but probably now realise it was a stupid one.