Idiots guide to the westbank and Israel?

Worth noting that when Egypt and Jordan held Gaza and West Bank respectively, they made no efforts to establish a Palestinian state for their ‘brothers’.

thanks DrJ – interesting stuff…

Worth noting that when Egypt and Jordan held Gaza and West Bank respectively, they made no efforts to establish a Palestinian state for their ‘brothers’

I guess Egypt considered that having the US continue to fund it’s military was far more important than upsetting congress by taking a meaningful stance to aide the Palestinians.
After all, any money in aid not going from the US to Egypt was only likely to end up in the hands of that other benefactor of US military aid – the Isrealis.

Let’s give everyone a bunch of cash to spend on our weapons industry

Again, i may be wrong.. but i thought that there’s no such thing as a ‘Palestinian’ passport.

Which was kind of my point. The overwhelming majority of Israelis, I believe, have other passports apart from their Israeli ones – or at least entitlement to them. The Palestinians on the other hand, have no internationally recognised passports of their own. Some have been granted passports from other countries, but the majority of Palestinians are “stateless”.

This wasn’t always these case of course, but when in 1948 the majority of Palestinians were expelled from their lands to make way for the creation of Israel, they also automatically became stateless.

I see that that the old Zionist and racist argument concerning other Muslim/Arab states not helping their Palestinians “bothers” has made its inevitable appearance here.

Interestingly, it is of course the same argument which German supporters of the Nazis made after the war, ie, if the world cared so much about the Jews why didn’t they take them themselves. They attempted to justify the Holocaust on the grounds that the “Final Solution” was only decided on, because no one wanted the Jews. They claim that the world only cried crocodile tears for the Jews.

The Palestinian people’s legitimate home is is Palestine, from which they have either been ethically cleansed or denied their most basic human rights. It isn’t Paris, New York, or Riyadh.

Yes, many US stooge client states in the region after initially giving a degree of support to Palestinian people have long since abandoned them. And totalitarian US backed regimes such as the Saudis truly despise the Palestinian people.

Governments throughout the world couldn’t give a toss about the Palestinians – they are a poor powerless people, who giving support to, would not supply any extra votes at all in elections. The Palestinians are an embarrassment which is best forgotten, and whose lands were very conveniently scarified in reparation for what Europeans did to Ashkenazi Jews.

If the Ashkenazi Jews were to be given a homeland at all after WW2, then surely it should have been a chunk of that huge country called Germany ? They even had their own Yiddish language and culture, quite separate to any in the Middle East with which they had not had any connections for thousands of years. Or they could just have stayed put in Brooklyn New York.

Jews can live freely and without fear of persecution in the US, Britain, Australia, and anywhere else in the world. They have no moral right to take the Palestinian people’s land. They are not “special”. And to suggest that they are, is pure and simple racism.

Blimey. I agree with ernie!

I see that that the old Zionist and racist argument concerning other Muslim/Arab states not helping their Palestinians “bothers” has made its inevitable appearance here.

That was certainly not my view or motive. I was pointing out that Arab states are far from innocent re’ the plight of the Palestinians.

The overwhelming majority of Israelis, I believe, have other passports apart from their Israeli ones – or at least entitlement to them.

I know you ‘believe’ it, but it’s not correct.

I couldn’t not click on this thread, it just pulled me in. I’m not going to say anything directly, just post some lyrics from a band that absorbed my youth. Yes, it’s fairly immature, but I don’t care.

Take a look at your promised land.
Your deed is that gun in your hand.
Mt. Zion’s a minefield. The West Bank. The Gaza Strip.
Soon to be parking lots for American tourists and fascist cops.
Smeg zionism. Smeg militarism. Smeg Americanism.
Smeg nationalism. Smeg religion.*

*Lyrics may have been slightly altered… 😆

Interesting episode of Theroux

Don’t think I warmed to the Isreali approach of trying to insert a population into an already established Palestinian settlement

The Isreali (inserted person) who was getting fire bombed and rubbish outside his house – would of been interesting to have known his background .. would he be in jail otherwise or something?

I was pointing out that Arab states are far from innocent re’ the plight of the Palestinians.

Of course they’re not. Nor is the rest of the world……including one superpower and one country which formerly had a League of Nation mandate.

.

I know you ‘believe’ it, but it’s not correct.

Fair enough. If you believe it not to be correct, you must know what the figures are then. So tell me.

I reckon about a third of Israelis have an entitlement to a US passport. With all the others who have birth and paternal and maternal based claims, I feel pretty confident that the total is well over 50%.

Show me proof that this wrong.

I see that that the old Zionist and racist argument concerning other Muslim/Arab states not helping their Palestinians “bothers” has made its inevitable appearance here.

I don’t think that it helps anyone to wheel this out. The fact that other Arab nations have not helped the Palestinians is something that needs airing if the cause of that ambivalence – fear of economic retribution from the US – is to have any light shed upon it.

It may be a line used by racists and/or Zionists but there is also a truth behind it that should be considered both in support of the Palestinian cause and in recognition of the enormous part that the US plays in destabilising the region for it’s own economic gain. Not that those two issues are mutually exclusive.

Show me proof that this wrong.

Having tried to check myself I realise that apparently, the number of Israelis with dual-nationality, is, for obvious reasons, a closely guarded secret. So there’s not much chance of you providing me with any figures iDave.

So let me give you at least one reason for my “belief” that the overwhelming majority of Israelis have at least an entitlement to passports other than Israeli ones.

In 1948 the Jewish population of Israel was about 800,000. Today it is nearly 6 million. So unless those 800,000 in 1948 started breeding like rabbits, it means that the majority of Israeli were either born in other countries, or their parents were. Which very strongly suggests that the majority Israelis have an entitlement to dual-nationality.

Something which Palestinians don’t have……which was the point I was making. And which apparently you didn’t like.

Daniel was an interesting chap.

The “buying” of the house seemed dubious 😆

I reckon about a third of Israelis have an entitlement to a US passport.

a large number of American Isrealis are called up as part of Israels conscription policy into the IDF for two years service.

I mentioned on here previously but was told I was wrong, but until the Israeli influence is removed from US politics and a reform of the Israel’s PR system to keep the lunatic fringe out of Government, then Israel will continue to ignore international condemnation and any accords, will continue to provoke conflict because it is the best way to grab land.

It’s maddening when extremist minorities on the Israeli and Palestinian sides hold the majorities to ransom.

I was pointing out that Arab states are far from innocent re’ the plight of the Palestinians.

far from innocent seems an odd choice of words given what Israel has done.
It is also not hard to see why countries who have been beaten in war by Israel would not want to be seen to be openly supporting the Palestinians as Israel has a history of invading/bombing these countries – Jordan in the last few years for example
The role of the arab nations – whilst not brilliant- is of nothing compared to Israel , and the US policies.
The dual nationalities is a trick question IMHO. 20% qre iarabs for example so that skews results but it is probably truue for the Jewish community as 35% of the whole population do have dual nationality Also 1 million russain jews had to give up their nationality when they emigrated there and all Jews are automatically citizens of israel. One could argue it either way as it really depends how you want to calculate your figures
70% ish were jewish born and 35% have dual nationality from what I googled if that helps
ernie the imiigrants bred like rabbits so every immigrant produced more than 1 offspreing hence the skew i assume. Also the population is mainly youg with very few eldely relative to more “stable or natural” population dynamics

If 35% of Israelis have dual nationality, then the figure for entitlement must be a fair bit more than that – I’m sure many haven’t bothered applying for their parents nationality as it is deemed unnecessary. BTW Russian Jews are now allowed to keep their Russian nationality – immigration to the Israel is no longer frowned upon.

All this of course detracts from the point I was making which was that Palestinians are not even vaguely in the same position as the Zionists – they have no other country other than Palestine.

BTW, I can’t emphasis how much people like the Saudi Royal Family despise the Palestinians – they see them as dirty poor pain in the arses, who are upsetting the perfect equilibrium in the Middle East, and who should preferably go away and die somewhere.

Lebensraum…

how about, everyone in the gaza strip or west bank ‘converts’ to judaism, becomes an israeli, and then goes to live in one of the disputed jewish settlements

‘i’m jewish and so’s my wife’ … sort of thing

?

I don’t think it’s quite that simple, awhiles…

damn, i thought i was onto something…

would be very amusing if the did all convert and then claimed citizenship

damn, i thought i was onto something…

ye might well be! sounds a better solution that any of the leaders have been able to come up with!

Since both sides are not give way. The solution is very simple in the grand scheme of things.

1) Annihilate the entire Palestinian population so create a greater Israel or move them out to settle in other Arab states. No negotiation whatsoever as that’s just a waste of time. If they want to fight then fight a proper war.

or

2) Annihilate the entire Israel state and form a Palestinian state because they will not go unless they are defeated in the war. So unless they are forced out from their land, like in history, that is their home and will keep expanding as that’s the way to establish a greater kingdom.

So what’s all this fluffing about eh? The winner takes all which has been the rules for that region since times begin.

If the tension in that region is solved do you think the world is going to be in peace?

I bet you not because the youngest of the Abrahamic faith will continue to expand like their older sibling as that’s in their teaching. It’s core is to expand just like their predecessors and will annihilate whosoever is in front of their path no two way about that (just like their older siblings).

The weak (non-believers) will perish and the expansion will continue regardless by either of those siblings.

chewkw – mon the war mongers eh…

seosamh77 – Member

chewkw – mon the war mongers eh…

If you want a moment in peace that is the way I am afraid. Only temporary because their ugly heads will raise up again. They need to be kept in check put it this way.

who need to be kept in check exactly?.
I dont think genocide is the solution and not sure why you think the [GOODWIN ALERT}final solution will bring peace

As Connor Cruise O’Brien so wisely stated, ‘conflicts have outcomes not solutions….’

There will be an outcome, it will not be a solution in the eyes of a large number of inhabitants of the area.

If you want a moment in peace that is the way I am afraid. Only temporary because their ugly heads will raise up again. They need to be kept in check put it this way.

Israel needs to be put under world wide pressure to solve the problem and become a democratic nation, which it isn’t, it needs to incorpoate 4 million or so people into it’s democracy for it to be. And we need to put our governments under pressure to stop supporting israel. The current laughable idea of the palestinians being allowed their democratic and human rights under the corrupt PA is laughable..
plus the gazans aren’t even allowed a democracy, hamas is not even allowed to the table as they don’t fit with western wishes(plus no nation can properly govern itself while under blockade, an act of war incidently).

The problem can be solved by economic sanctions imo, it just needs the world to implement them, unlikely i know but your view of all out war is not the only option, far from it.

Junkyard – Member

who need to be kept in check exactly?.
I dont think genocide is the solution and not sure why you think the [GOODWIN ALERT}final solution will bring peace

All. As long as their religions teach them to expand and not to look into themselves individually. i.e. if they do no stop converting others the fight continues.

Genocide? That’s done too many time in history.

Your argument about final peace is delusional as well because none of them can be wiped out entirely as they will be replaced by another set of expansionists. Goodwin solution is temporary and will never solve the problem so are others.

The only solution is to keep everyone in check, especially those expansionists, and perhaps to preserve a pocket of peace in certain part of the world.

seosamh77 – Member

Israel needs to be put under world wide pressure to solve the problem and become a democratic nation, which it isn’t, it needs to incorpoate 4 million or so people into it’s democracy for it to be.

Then you are advocating starting a war if they keep refusing because that is their home.

No amount of pressure can sway the determine people on both side and you can negotiate or talk until your face turn blue or keep passing on the problem.

ps an interesting map, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Settlements2006.jpg

how the hell a 2 state solution is even possible is beyond me, smoke and mirrors to make the world believe there is an attempt at a resolution from the israelis.

Then you are advocating starting a war if they keep refusing because that is their home.

No amount of pressure can sway the determine people on both side and you can negotiate or talk until your face turn blue or keep passing on the problem.

ok so did supporters of anti apartheid advocate war? from their wish to see south africa put under the same restrictions? you’re only kidding yoursef on with that nonsense..

seosamh77 – Member

ps an interesting map, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Settlements2006.jpg

how the hell a 2 state solution is even possible is beyond me, smoke and mirrors to make the world believe there is an attempt at a resolution from the israelis.

One of them needs to give way or to submit to the other. Simple. Acknowledge themselves as 2nd class citizen just like many others in the world.

seosamh77 – Member

ok so did supporters of anti apartheid advocate war? from their wish to see south africa put under the same restrictions? you’re only kidding yoursef on with that nonsense..

What do you think? Do you think they are all angles?

The White S.African gives way as simple as that and if they not what are you going to do about it?

Ahem…

To a certain extent the history can be written how you see it, as its currently impossible accurately determine the genetics which seem so important to both sides.

personally I’d say a group of people lived in what is now Israel-Palestine and thought of them selves as philistines. They converted to Judasim and thought of them selves as Jewish at this time several empires, assria,babylon,greek,roman invaded the area expelling a small sections of the elites around the middle east and Mediterranean.

These people managed to convert alot of people to Judaism most of whom later converted to Christianity but some of these people stuck to Judaism. In the middle ages there probably was a expulsion of these Mediterranean jews from Christian countries which lead to them moving to eastern Europe and converting a quite large percentage of people there to Judasim. Finally some of these Easter Europeans travelled to America and got rich.

Meanwhile in Judea the Romans converted most of the people there from Judaism to Christianity, then the Islamic Empire invaded and converted majority of the people there from Christianity to Islam. Leaving a mixture of Jews, Christians and mostly Islamic people there. The crusades happen but didnt leave a last effect and religious nature of population remained mainly the same under various Islamic empire ie ottaman empire.

Finally the Jews in America came up with Zionism and decided they should be heading back to Israel and small numbers of Jews from America and Europe started heading there. Finally the holocaust happen and the British who now felt guilty about not stopping it allowed loads of Eastern Europeans who happen to be Jews to set up shop there
leading to the current troubles.

i think i’ll give this a watch again myself not seen it in a few years, but very good docu on it..worth a watch.

http://www.alluc.org/documentaries/watch-occupation-101-online/24370.html

As an aside, Peter Kosminsky’s The Promise starts tonight on C4. He directed the superb BBC drama Warriors – hopefully it will be of the same quality.

Chewwy – I have long admired the deep compassion and empathy you feel for other humans. And I have always wondered who inspired you. Today I think I might have found the answer …….. is it Stewie ?

Best summed up by Junkyard and Ernest,nothing I would try to add to their discription of the conflict. An interesting development will be if Egypt fall into the hands of a “Iranesque” Muslim government.

ernie_lynch – Member

Chewwy – I have long admired the deep compassion and empathy you feel for other humans. And I have always wondered who inspired you. Today I think I might have found the answer …….. is it Stewie ?

I treat the egotistic mankind equally with no discrimination, regardless of who they are, as maggots so to step on them. Fact.

they do no stop converting others the fight continues.

I have never needed tofight one off usually tell them to f off or laughing works. I think the largely aethist countries are the expansionist ones these days via global capitalism

Goodwin is the comparison of an argument to nazi germany BTW it is not a solution to anything.

The only solution is to keep everyone in check, especially those expansionists, and perhaps to preserve a pocket of peace in certain part of the world.

[/Quote]
I fail to see how keeping people in check -is that not what Israelis would claim they are doing?- can be done without force and therefore it is hardly preserving peace. I think you are confusing repression with peace.