iDave Diet Joinee

I haven’t read the last few posts, its got very busy here for a moment.

Jamie, you’re pre-fueled already, for around 90 mins activity.
Check Football, Rugby, etc, etc.
Games that run for about as long as you can, on what you’ve got stored.

Longer activities will therefore, require alternative fueling, hence the uptake of simple carbs, someway into the a activity and not instantly, as soon as you set off at the begining.

imo.

Simple carbs being?

The consensus, if we ignore Edukator, seems to be that eating low carb during training phases and high carb before (but not immediately before) and during events is the way to make most progress.

Lots of better authorities and athletes than I are intentionally training in glycogen depleted states.

As far as my sportive goes I did OK, probably better than most of the carb monsters. The intensity that you can use fat as fuel can be improved with the right training and nutrition.

As far as coke goes, it’s got a role after an open water swim. Other than that, no thanks.

*Serious mode*

I can understand why if you were training for the olympics or whatever or you were a coach trying to sell your services and needed a “sales pitch” (can you tell I’ve been in an office too long) why you’d want to follow a strict diet, but mostly I eat what I want, rice bread fruit pizza ice cream…when I run/train, I just try to run faster than I did last time, and sometimes I get a faster time, sometimes I match my last time. Then sometimes I go running/riding just for fun and do what I want.

Chronic cardio sounds like a way to scare people into buying a different lifestyle book/DVD/course at the gym to me…

Or is the point that you are extending your stores beyond 90 minutes by converting stored fat via gluconeogenesis from the start in which case that’s interesting although still not sure I’d want to wait 90 minutes…

When Dave mentioned it earlier, I had a quick google and found this-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9232556

Based on the above information, the advantage of adding electrolytes to drinks consumed during exercise is
probably not as great as their manufacturers would have us believe. There is little doubt that some form of
carbohydrate (other than fructose) should be ingested
during prolonged ( > 90 min), moderate-intensity exercise because, under these circumstances, liver glycogen
depletion and hypoglycaemia can limit endurance
(Coyle et al., 1983). Whether an athlete should ingest a
large amount of carbohydrate at the onset of exercise,
however, is open to question. As only ~ 20 g of ingested
carbohydrate is utilized in the ®rst hour of exercise
(Hawley et al., 1992a), drinking more than that amount
of carbohydrate may increase the reliance on muscle
glycogen oxidation by attenuating the fall in insulin
concentration and thereby delaying fat mobilization
(Hawley et al., 1994b), especially in relatively low (55%
VÇ O2 peak) intensity exercise (Rauch et al., 1995). Athletes should therefore probably consume 100 ml every
10 min of a dilute (3-5 g 100 ml-1
) carbohydrate solution for the ®rst 60-75 min of exercise and then
increase the ingested carbohydrate concentration to
~ 10 g 100 ml-1 to match the peak ( ~ 1 g min-1) rates
of plasma glucose oxidation (Hawley et al., 1992a).

As far as my sportive goes I did OK

In a field of 1000 you did better than OK… especially as you weren’t drafting.

I ate a load of mini-eggs on the way there… I’m not going to do that again. 3 hours of cramp is a right ******* to deal with!

Emsz…

but mostly I eat what I want,

or not eat at all?

😳 Got me,

I wonder how many here are also “punishing themselves” ‘cos this thread could do with a bit of honesty about peoples motivations…

@ Jamie, try this link..
http://www.channel4.com/4food/recipes/chefs/hugh-fearnley-whittingstall/tupperware-mexican-chorizo-recipe

“punishing themselves”

Not at all +1 for what iDave is about to say…

Would be happy to talk with you about it… I’m all for helping people who do this.

Don’t listen to Emsz. She eats like a weirdo.

Jamie – are you going to play bad cop then?

*Serious mode*

I don’t feel like I follow a ‘strict’ diet, and I certainly don’t follow a ‘strict’ training regime. Although I almost do at the moment for the triathlon in May. I still had a few biscuits last night, I eat pie and custard sometimes.

As for motivation, I just love a challenge and enjoy the training. I dislike being fat too, and yes, I have been a biffer in the past. If I have found a way not to be fat, to eat a lot of very nice food, drink a lot of wine, and train hard then happy days.

Yeti,

I think I’m at least honest enough with myself to understand why I do the things I do, I’m aware of the pressure on me to look a certain way, I think most girls are. I see the same thing happening to young men now, Chris has a bathroom routine that matches mine and having seen his mates and other male friends he’s not alone, and the pressure is on to look a certain way, I just wonder how much of the “training” is in fact a bloke version of dieting and make up.

I just wonder how much of the “training” is in fact a bloke version of dieting and make up.

I do it because I love it. If I didn’t. I’d stop.

Jamie – are you going to play bad cop then?

Wait…what? There’s a good cop?

@jamest

Cheers guy, that works now.

“I just wonder how much of the “training” is in fact a bloke version of dieting and make up.”

you’ll have to ask deadly – he moisturises you know

This thread has helped me to correct my misinterpretation of the plan.

I foolishly assumed it meant take on simple carbs before a big ride. So I did last Friday morning ahead of an all dayer in the hills. Boy, did I bonk mid-afternoon.

I thought those bacon, peanut butter and apricot jam sandwiches that I had on the way there plus liquorice during the ride would be enough. Wrong.

BigJohn, I tried a great recipe for energy bars, that include bacon!!

I’ll try next time with lentils instead of rice, but really cracking taste.

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/nutrition/The-Best-Energy-Bar-Ever.html

As for motivation, I just love a challenge and enjoy the training. I dislike being fat too, and yes, I have been a biffer in the past. If I have found a way not to be fat, to eat a lot of very nice food, drink a lot of wine, and train hard then happy days.

This is iDave and I claim my 5 dollars.

*ponders growing a tache*

Yeti,

That’s cool, but tell me honestly would you be happy with a beer belly, ‘cos I know I wouldn’t be. I enjoy exersize, so that helps but I see enough of my friends, boys and girls with a weird attitude to food and going to the gym and not enjoying it, but doing it because they know they ‘should’. I think it’s about time the fitness industry took as much as the blame as the food industry has.

*ponders growing a tache*

You would definitely become one of DD’s #specialguys if you did.

I’ll try them Dave. I usually make a date & coconut cake for all dayers and stick some SIS in my Camelbak, but foolishly (especially as busted shoulder has stopped me doing much in the last 2 months) didn’t do either.

emzs, the fitness industry is no such thing. they know very little about fitness and rely on most gym members never turning up and creating dependency in the others.

high carb before (but not immediately before) and during events is the way to make most progress.

That is exactly what I’ve said.

As for depleting glycogen during training that will happen whatever you eat if you go hard enough for long enough. Consuming carbs at a rate appropriate to how far into the effort you are (as IanMunro’s quote) will just allow you to go for harder for longer thus improving the quality of training. As earlier stated I generally have diluted grape juice in my bottle after the run/swim then take whatever branded sugary horrors the oragnisers hand up when it runs out. On Sunday I even accepted a goblet of coke half way up the ski.

As for motivation, I used to train and race year round, and enjoy it: X-C ski races, Winter triathlons, ski alpinism races, triathlons (including Embrunman a few times), mtb races, adventure races, mountain running and then back to X-C ski. I could get into the top ten in five of those locally and into the top ten in the national championships in Winter triathlon. Now I just race for fun and try to stay injury free which means eliminating the speed work and not training hard when fatigued or with muscles low on fuel.

Edit: I’l go and ride my bike now, back in no less than 4 hours.

Actually I’m interested in the 90mins into an event before taking on carbs…does this apply to racing? I’m curious because in a race situation, i sometimes struggle to settle my stomach enough to take on board any energy products (if i try to eat energy chews, they can sit funny and i feel like i’m going to puke, despite having used them fine countless times before). So for my race a few weekends ago, i ate nothing for the first 38km until the pace settled a little and then managed to get in a bit of energy chews for the last 10km but my legs totally died for the last 5km/two climbs due to pushing a big gear at much higher speeds. I don’t feel i need any energy products during a race but it would probably give me a boost in the last part of the race when its about going for a sprint and my legs are knackered.

Also, if i can’t eat anything/much during a race, if i was to take an energy drink/chews before a race instead of during, how far in advance should i take it? Would it not then wear off half way through and then need to top it up or go back to my not eating way? Would it be any better/worse than a honey sandwich? I tried a honey sarnie about 1hr 30mins before my crit race on Sat, felt great racing and a new PB of 36kph. Looks like this year will be all about learning my race craft and what works nutrition wise and next year will be about going for the win!

What you said Edukator was lots of high GI carbs all the time – bread, pasta, potatoes etc. In daily diet as well as around events. Remember?

DGOAB – all depends on the likely duration of the event.

Yes, I remember. I also said I don’t eat carbs in the last 3-4 hours up to the start of a race. I had ham and cheese toasties for breakfast, and I haave some bananas in my pockets. I’m obsolutely certain I won’t suffer insulin related problems in the next four hours. Posting with cycling gloves on isn’t easy so this really is – laters!

Great link Jamie by the way, but this is interesting to me (having had to learn a lot about caffeine)

‘Coffee contains a multitude of ingredients which might influence caffeine’s activity within the human body.’

Coffee, tea, coke, and guarana all have different effects on me and my caffeine sensitivity. A Coke at a garage stop in the late stages of a long road ride really works wonders for me both psychologically and physically, but Torq caffeinated gels work even better, on my legs at least. No real effect when taken early in the ride mind, but 5 hours in when you’re knackered they’re amazing.

I should add btw going back 5 pages that my pre-ride coke was about 90 mins before.

Solo yes you start off with 90 mins’ worth of carbs in your system usually, unless you’ve been training on previous days and not got adequate carbs from your diet… That’s the root of my experiment with supplementation – I feel like I can’t eat enough beans to get enough carbs to replenish what I use up. But perhaps if I start riding without carbing first it might work out better.

I must also add anecdotally that I’ve sometimes been on rides where I am slugging from my camelbak constantly, and some where I forget to drink for hours and still ride really well. Perhaps it’s down to what I ate beforehand.

Oh and btw, last time I did my interval set the figures were 353W, 330W, 317W, 307W, 308W and 312W – notice the dramatic fall-off even though I was trying to pace myself. I intend to do it again today without pre-carbs, so we’ll see.

iDave – and high carb before (but not immediately before)

Is that specifically longer endurance events? Do you still recommend this for shorter races, say a standard length duathlon (taking 2 hours).

And what about something even shorter, a 10k?

emsz –

That’s cool, but tell me honestly would you be happy with a beer belly, ‘cos I know I wouldn’t be

Definitely not. But I couldn’t give a shit if someone else has one. I’ve always exercised and get a buzz off the endorphins I guess. Even in my younger / wilder days where I got other highs I still exercised a lot. I wasn’t as lean as I am at the moment, but the form of exercise I do has changed.

If you’re a Ferret, you need to smoke pot to get the same feeling.
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/215/8/1331.abstract

Emsz – for me it’s a project. Whatever I want to do I try and do it as well as I can, just for the hell of it. Could be DIY, work, whatever. It’s my personality. So on the bike I want to be as fast as I can be.

Appearance is a small factor I suppose. I get satisfaction from looking good (ish, when I have) but it’s not a deal breaker. If I didn’t care about training I wouldn’t care enough about my looks to worry about it.

However I don’t want to look like a gym bunny at all. It’s very obvious when people have spent hours sculpting themselves in the gym for vanity, and when they are just fit athletes. The latter is far more desirable to me.

IanMunro – I’m a ferret!!

Flicking back I read this quote properly:

Athletes should therefore probably consume 100 ml every
10 min of a dilute (3-5 g 100 ml-1
) carbohydrate solution for the ®rst 60-75 min of exercise and then
increase the ingested carbohydrate concentration to
~ 10 g 100 ml-1 to match the peak ( ~ 1 g min-1) rates
of plasma glucose oxidation

So I guess that means weak energy drink in the bottles/camelbak then, and gels later on… Unless you get thirsty of course. Hmm. Maybe.. drink water and then one gel after the first hour and umm.. every 30 mins after? That sounds a lot though. That could add up to 7 gels in a 4 hour sportive..

surely you can just ‘tell’ if you need to take on energy, I know I can. And if you know the distances you have to go and roughly what’s the terrain is for that distance you can ‘tell’ in advance if you’ll need to take on energy now for later on. Everyday is different, you have to know what your body is going through and how it is going to react. I wouldn’t care if it’s 65mins in or 90min in, it would all depend how I’m feeling at the time and what work there is left to do.

Kev

I will openly admit vanity does play a fairly big part for me, being in shape has only ever been a positive thing for me, the idiet just makes it easier to mantain.

Hmm. Maybe.. drink water and then one gel after the first hour and umm.. every 30 mins after? That sounds a lot though. That could add up to 7 gels in a 4 hour sportive..

I think it’s saying that the maximum rate that the body can convert glucose into something more useful is at ~1 gram a minute, taking on carbs at a greater rate is pointless. Taking on carbs at 1g a minute is theoretically optimum in a simplistic sense. Whether the body feels comfortable doing that is another question.
I haven’t got my thinking head on today though, so could be mistaken. I can email the paper to you if you like?

Yes I know about the 1g/m thing (although I was told previously 1g/hour/kg body weight which is similar) but I was musing on a practical way of doign what they say ie light carbs in the first hour ish, then more later. You can’t take two camelbaks.. although in a lap race you can have different bottles I guess.

Well, I’ve been on the diet pretty religiously for 3 weeks. In week 1 I lost 2kg (92 to 90Kg), since then my weight has been pretty much static and no further weight loss has occured. I bounce between 89 and 90kg depending on which end of the week I am and how mental I go on my ‘day off’. (target: the svelt 70kg of my constantly racing young self).

One factor may be that life and work pressures are making it impossible to do anything other than my usual 38k cycle commute. Other than pushing the earth further from the sun so that I get an extra hour in the day to go running, tips/advice gratefully received!