I see the England "fans" are doing us proud again.

The article by Ken Early is good. Martin Hutch makes a good point. The problem is England fans reputation precedes them,and will do for some years to come. So in the meantime you either stay at home or if you do go lay off the drink.

Re: the trouble in the stadium, who’s bright idea was it to put russian and english in the same stand! 😆

btw that article above, would ring true to my ears. I doubt there’s English firms there out looking for trouble, and alot of it is reactionary. Violence in British fitba seems to be mostly of the organised sort these days, so usually out of view of the general crowds. You need to be aware that the reputation still holds though. So youse are easy targets.

gordimhor – Member
So in the meantime you either stay at home or if you do go lay off the drink.

Crazy talk! 😆

Without going into the merits or otherwise of Englands piece in this, of wider concern to me is that already in this tournament we are seeing a much wider spread of violent clashes. Obviously the scenes in Marseille, issues between Germany and Ukraine, reports of violence at the Norn Ireland v Poland match (though this was apparently instigated by local hooligans), and we’re just 3 days into the tournament.

So my wider concern is that this tournament is becoming a display of the more general anti-establishment sentiment across Europe as a whole and runs a risk of being remembered for violence, not English violence, regional violence. Really hope I’m wrong as tournament football should be a festival!

(For comparisons, how much violence was there when Germany hosted the World Cup?, or even when the lat Euro’s were help in Poland + Ukraine?)

I get the impression that hooligan culture is fairly wide spread and getting worse these days across Europe, particularly the further east you go. And it has shitebaggery as it’s core philosophy (ie hit and run and pick off the weakest)

That’s not from any great experience though, just a general impression. Ultras groups in the UK seem to be a fairly benign force, but that’s different elsewhere.

There was some trouble at Celtic v Ajax few years ago mind, 2012, i completely missed it in mind you, was just round the corner too busy getting stoned! 😆 Impressions are that it took on a similar hit and run feel, then the heavy handed police step in. Few bars attacked the previous night. A fair few Celtic fans were arrested and charged, later charges all dropped if I remember right.

In those situations, not much you can do but retaliate and the obvious repercussions of that are that it escalates in to trouble with the polis.

So it can happen to anyone, not like we have a reputation for causing bother.

Interesting read – the view of Britain’s Euro 2016 police chief

Teargas is not unusual in France, its standard CRS practice. It is a day to day tactic and does not mean there has been much more than a face to face confrontation. As I said I am sure there has been bad behaviour but the French policing has been very poor, why no alcohol ban, why no stop and search (knives, martial arts gloves), why no fan segregation, how come rockets and flares where inside the stadium ?

I need to dig out my photos of the Paris riot police firing tear gas and using water canons against rioters from a few years ago. The rioters where striking firemen who had blockaded L’Opera and had set light to various piles of rubbish/wood etc. There have been near daily riots in the last month all across France over Hollande’s labour reforms.

how come rockets and flares where inside the stadium

Yeah, given what happened last November (bear in mind that one attempted attack at the Stade de France was thwarted) I am stunned that the security wasn’t watertight on Saturday night and we can only hope that the weekend’s events kicks the collective arse of the French Security Forces.

Security is an illusion and it’s impossible for it to be total.

Segregration is absolutely possible though, mental that they were in the same stand.

duckman
Atgray,are you ignoring the fact that English fans still knock lumps out of each other in domestic games? What about the international game;what’s your opinion on the behaviour of the Folks who follow the national side Atgray,or do they not fit your tired,made up,bleating? Stick to posting claims about “Scottish white van man” that also don’t bear up to any scrutiny. At least you give us a laugh then,oh;and it is snobbery on your part.

I sometimes wonder why I reply to you but here goes.
I was not attempting to play Scottish football fans against English ones. My gripe is with football tribalism in general and how it manifests itself. I only used Scottish Cup final as it is recent and the footage of people attacking each other is quite clear.
I could not have cared whether it was Scotland, England or Timbuktu to be honest.
The violence and general sinister undercurrent tends to take place away from grounds. What happens to domestic abuse figures across the country when rival teams play for example. My argument was that I would rather have my kids follow other sports.
Duckman if you could be please be stupid enough to post a video of violence at an English game as you said happens, this would be appreciated to prove my point. Thanks

Whilst I think it looks that the England fans are more the victim when it comes to the main violence in the Stadium, it must be said that even a small group of football fans can be quite intimidating, to the point that they can instigate trouble without even trying too hard.

I went to the pub with some friends to watch the England game and it never ceases to amaze me how even the most good natured fan behaviour (chanting, singing, gathering en-masse etc) can result in a sinister atmosphere. Relocate this to a country/town of a different culture and I imagine it can really upset/antagonise the locals.

Security is an illusion and it’s impossible for it to be total.

Fair enough I accept that, but it is scary that the stuff is so easy to get into a ground. If a group of mentalist Russians can do it, a group of mentalist IS supporters could…

That’s just life in an open society, it has it’s vunerabilities. Personally I wouldn’t change our open societies, for an illusion of security.

Specifically in regards to IS, if that’s going to happen it’s going to happen… Recent events tell you that you can’t protect against it.

Duckman if you could be please be stupid enough to post a video of violence at an English game as you said happens, this would be appreciated to prove my point. Thanks

Stupid enough? You are the one making sweeping claims fella. Why don’t you have a wee sit down and then google Milwall v Barnsley?(as mentioned by others) Or you could answer my original question about the Scottish supporters…I see you ignored SS’s point about that being the first trouble inside a ground in 36 years as well… 😆

For the adults…Scottish supporters were horrible in the 70’s and early 80’s. They had a reboot of their behaviour and make a point of being fairly self policing,the biggest problem they create now is pishing in the street. The problem England has is your reputation precedes you. So even if there is a change in the type of supporters, you lot are stuffed for years if not decades to come. And the majority of the England fans have my sympathy, if people are chucking stuff at you then I can’t believe some folks are surprised they threw it back.

This thread seems to have actually achieved the optimum mix of ill-informed, judgemental tabloidesque high-horsery, and piddling-your-petticoats in horror, middle class, bed-wettery

We’ve been threatening to get there for a while now. Well done! We made it in the end 😀

They had a reboot of their behaviour

Was this organised and overseen by a Hollywood movie mogul by any chance?

This thread seems to have actually achieved the optimum mix of ill-informed, judgemental tabloidesque high-horsery, and piddling-your-petticoats in horror, middle class, bed-wettery

You mean you don’t buy into football following the good example set by rugby, where opposing fans sit together, everyone drinks sensibly, and sings one inoffensive hymn for the entire match?

There were widespread clashes today between rival athletics fans today at the Rio Olympics. Police used teargas to disperse running battles on Copacabana beach between violent and drunken javelin enthusiasts

Said absolutely no one ever.

Football has to take a serious look at the dickhead element that’s associated with it. It simply doesn’t exist in other sports or at other major tournaments.

More finger pointing at the Russians…

Well, that’s that settled.

The three days of rioting involving English hooligans was the fault of Russian hooligans.

Football has to take a serious look at the dickhead element that’s associated with it. It simply doesn’t exist in other sports or at other major tournaments.

I’m in no way defending or justifying hooliganism, but if you think football could be like athletics then you really don’t understand it.

Football has to take a serious look at the dickhead element that’s associated with it. It simply doesn’t exist in other sports or at other major tournaments.

True; however i suspect the dickhead element just exists, and if it wasn’t football then it would surface elsewhere. Football, being the ubiquitous game and the most watched sport of all is a convenient vehicle where the dickhead element can justifiably travel to meet up with other dickheads and kick each other about for a bit. Blaming football itself doesn’t address the issue which is that there will always be dickheads. A huge proportion of football fans have no interest at all in causing trouble.

I believe that the English game, and the English police have made huge steps in weeding out the troublesome elements and largely preventing them from travelling. It’s still not perfect as recent scenes have shown, but I do think other nations are lagging behind somewhat.

When i was a kid, 30 years ago, there were 3 schools in close proximity to each other in my home town. There were a spate of incidents where groups of tough kids would arrange to meet up with the other schools for fights. The schools were the badge of allegiance, but no-one suggested banning schools as a result. They dealt with the troublemakers individually. It’s the same thing on a different scale.

You mean you don’t buy into football following the good example set by rugby, where opposing fans sit together, everyone drinks sensibly, and sings one inoffensive hymn for the entire match?

😀

I am surprised that anyone can see a screen, given how big that particular elephant is

😉

but if you think football could be like athletics then you really don’t understand it.

Very true, it is difficult to understand many of the ugly manifestations of our national sport. Respect….

Well, that’s that settled.

The three days of rioting involving English hooligans was the fault of Russian hooligans.

Well they said

Some 150 Russians were behind much of the violence in Marseille ahead of the Euro 2016 match between England and Russia, French prosecutors have said.

So yes, you are correct.

The three days of rioting involving English hooligans was the fault of Russian hooligans.

Yes, yes. Very good.

Anyway, one thing that concerns me with the 2 groups of fans set to be near each other again, well done UEFA btw, is that those English hooligans who are subject to banning orders etc, may make a concerted effort to get round these and get out to France. Probably under some misguided notion of ‘defending their honour’ or some such nonsense.

so the english fans throwing bottles at french police were actually just manipulated by the russians?

so the english fans throwing bottles at french police were actually just manipulated by the russians

Why are you being wilfully ignorant? No one is saying, well maybe one person is, that the English are without any responsibility here. The point that is trying to be made, is that there….oh, I can’t be bothered.

so the english fans throwing bottles at french police were actually just manipulated by the russians?

Has anyone said that?

I do wonder at the rise of far right populism and the xenophobia that is seen with the Brexit campaign having an effect on these mobs
certainly state TV extolling the virtues of Russian hooligans seems doesnt help

the clashes between the english and french police a few days ago were accompanied by chants of

“**** off Europe, we’re all voting out”

“sit down if you hate the French”

“Isis, where are you?”

Bare-chested fans also sang songs about the IRA and German bombers being shot down

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/euro-2016-england-fans-chant-about-brexit-at-violent-clashes-in-marseille_uk_575bd566e4b041514369c5cb

I know theres always been banter at international matches, I suppose football tribalism and rivalry is better than actual wars

Segregration is absolutely possible though, mental that they were in the same stand.

Why? I am struggling to think of any other sport where fans are segregated.

matt_outandabout – Member
Segregration is absolutely possible though, mental that they were in the same stand.
Why? I am struggling to think of any other sport where fans are segregated.

Other sports are shit compared to fitba though. 😆

People bemoaning the tribalism of fitba, really don’t get it, and never will, even if I sit here and spend a year trying to explain it. It’s half the point.

When i was a kid, 30 years ago, there were 3 schools in close proximity to each other in my home town. There were a spate of incidents where groups of tough kids would arrange to meet up with the other schools for fights. The schools were the badge of allegiance, but no-one suggested banning schools as a result. They dealt with the troublemakers individually. It’s the same thing on a different scale.

Which would be a good point if i’d suggested banning football.

I’m not, I actually enjoy the big tournaments, I’ve not really got time for the club stuff – fitba in Scotland is ruined by the Old Firm and all the shite that goes with it.

But I think that the sport could do more to police fans, zero tolerance of violent behaviour, remove teams with misbehaving fans or make them play in front of empty stadiums.

The fan’s team and players could actively disown them – be more vocal about condemning hooliganism and anti-social behaviour. If the team you’ve come to support is calling out your behaviour and saying they want no part of it and you’ve shamed them maybe they’ll think twice about anti social behaviour – maybe, maybe not.

These are suggestions I’m sure other will have better ideas.

Hooliganism at the club level in the UK is largely – barring one or two recent incidents a thing of the past because of a zero tolerance approach.

I think the suggestion that this hooliganism is a proxy for other wider issues in society and the world is frankly hand wringing bullshit, its just dickheads being dickheads.

I think the suggestion that this hooliganism is a proxy for other wider issues in society and the world is frankly hand wringing bullshit, its just dickheads being dickheads.

Completely agreed

But when ‘peaceful protesters’ kick off and start smashing up the west end, then it’s all the fault of heavy handed policing, and when ‘disaffected youth’ start looting foot locker and burning down warehouses, it’s all down to poverty and social exclusion – so it’s probably fair that we give drunken nobheads some sort of excuse that means they’re not to blame for their own actions either.

I think the suggestion that this hooliganism is a proxy for other wider issues in society and the world is frankly hand wringing bullshit, its just dickheads being dickheads.

My point behind this on the previous page was more that the dickheads, who are indeed being dickheads, are using the tournament as a vehicle to converge. As a consequence the narrative is “hooligans” and not “dickheads”

And as someone who, in a very non-STW way, actually enjoys football it’s a shame to see the stigma against genuine fans rear it’s head again.

Which would be a good point if i’d suggested banning football.

True. I’ll rephrase; The schools were the badge of allegiance, but no-one suggested schools were the cause of the fighting. They dealt with the troublemakers individually. It’s the same thing on a different scale.

But I think that the sport could do more to police fans, zero tolerance of violent behaviour, remove teams with misbehaving fans or make them play in front of empty stadiums.

My point is that the English / British police and authorities have made huge strides, but other nations seem to be lagging behind. This is based on my observation of having watched domestic football for the last 40 years, through the bad times and up to nowadays, and i don’t think it’s ever been better with kids and women able to attend games with very little likelihood of trouble. The ‘honest’ fan is largely selfpolicing now – one of the last games i was at last season saw one fan get a bit het up over a bad refereeing decision and his mate and others around told him to tone it down because of the kids in the crowd. Idiots will always exist, for sure, and while the reputation persists then i think fans abroad will always be a target for both heavy policing and other fans to attack them, and there is a ‘don’t back down’ mentality that exists in the grey fringes between people just there to cause trouble and people just there to enjoy the games, with that grey area widened by fear / self-defence and the disinhibiting effects of alcohol.

But what the pictures above of a minority of thugs don’t show, is the hundreds of fans there for the holiday and the fun, moving away to avoid getting caught up in the trouble. Because they don’t sell the papers / feed the agenda of ‘here we go again’

So to punish all for the actions of a few – I have mixed feelings. It’s very harsh on the vast majority of law abiding fans, but maybe it would force them to take self-policing to the ultimate level.

[this next bit’s going to be controversial]

but it also smacks a little of Trumpism. Ban all muslims from America because of a few shouty explodey types; if they want to be allowed to join in again then they need to sort themselves out, we can’t do it for them.

Is that so different to what you propose? Why’s it acceptable as a suggestion for one situation but absolutely despicable for the other?

“I think the suggestion that this hooliganism is a proxy for other wider issues in society and the world is frankly hand wringing bullshit, its just dickheads being dickheads.”

Well, that’s a particularly naive and dare I say, ignorant view of things. Do you really think that this sort of hooliganism just happens? No. Because large groups can gather in other situations and be perfectly fine (Epsom recently being an exception! 😯 ). With football hooliganism, we have to look at the people involved, to try to understand why it’s happening. The hooligans across Europe are almost without exception white males who come from poorer backgrounds, suffering from social, economic and educational deprivation, and looking for a vent for their frustrations and insecurities. This is basic stuff. Add in a right-wing media fuelling xenophobia and fear, and you have a perfect mix of emotion and motivation. Insecure men need to be able to ‘prove’ themselves in a world where they otherwise feel inferior, and violence is a convenient outlet. Chuck alcohol in there, and the furnace has even more fuel to burn.

Far-right extremism is rapidly on the rise in Europe, yet seems to be largely ignored by much of the mainstream media, which instead chooses to focus on playing on xenophobic attitudes, which in turn directs anger towards ‘others’. Nations need to be looking at the problems within, as these are the real threat. Violence of this kind will only increase, sadly, as Europe tears itself apart and nationalism rears it’s ugly head once more.

Further to my post above, it’s interesting to look at various clubs in relation to hooliganism. I’ve often traveled through the Highbury/Finsbury Park area on match days, and it’s noticeable that the demographic of fans attending is quite different to other clubs. Arsenal have a relatively large ‘middle class’ following, as the local area is generally pretty wealthy (and the ticket prices are the highest in the country apparently), and you will also see a lot more women and people from minority groups attending. A mix that’s pretty representative of that area I’d say. I’ve never witnessed any trouble, and often seen away fans mixing with Arsenal fans in the local pubs etc, and walking to stations. Police presence is pretty low. Certain games (Tottenham!) will be more heavily policed, but the only real local concern I’ve experienced is when one particular team (German possibly) were playing, and there was a very heavy police escort surrounding their supporters. But Arsenal are really not known as a ‘hooligan’ club.

Contrast this with a club like Millwall. Very different and much narrower demographic amongst supporters (mainly white male), a known history of hooliganism, and a large far-right following. I would not feel comfortable travelling amongst those ‘fans’.

duckman
Or you could answer my original question about the Scottish supporters…I see you ignored SS’s point about that being the first trouble inside a ground in 36 years as well…

There has not been trouble inside a Scottish football ground in 36 years really? 1999 SPL title decider at Celtic Park. About as vile as two sets of fans banter can get. I have seen trouble and bile at games I have attended 10-15 years ago.
I have said most trouble takes place away from grounds. Was there not trouble fairly recently between Aberdeen and Dundee United fans in a pub?
I think some of the trouble seen after the recent cup final can not be dissacoiated from the so called ribbing Hibernian fans have received from their city rivals for years over their inability to win a Scottish Cup. In some regards you can almost sympathise with the over exuberance. I did google the Millwall thing. It only backs up my point about football. SS even admits football violence is on the rise.
Footballs challenges do vary from place to place, but Scotland issue is the connection between so called religion and football in the West.
I know Duckman you are simply looking to say our fans are better than yours. You need to get over that.

People have been blaming bar owners for selling alcohol in bottles. A bar owner on the radio said he had been selling beer in plastic goblets and stopped selling alcohol completely at 14:00. He wasn’t selling much anyhow because the England fans had brought their own packs of bottles and cans in supermarkets and that’s what they were drinking and using as ammunition. Seems plausible to me given how the average STWer moans about the price of beer in French bars. Should France remove alcohol from the shelves of every supermarket within a bus ride of the town?

The proof is in this photo. Empty beer packs everywhere. Bar owners don’t sell beer in packs.