I got a Kindernay internal gearhub

I’ve been looking for a light-ish, mtb-suitable gear hub for ages and recently I found that Kindernay make exactly that

I had my first ride on it today and it’s really, really good

Here’s some initial thoughts as there’s very little info around and not sure there’s a thread on them here

The basics

It’s a 7 speed gearhub with a 428% range (more than a 11-46t cassette)

It’s 12mm thru axle, and there are end-caps available for boost, non-boost, and 135mm

The max torque is high (e-bike rated), and it’s designed to withstand proper mtb conditions

On that point, the external shifting box of the Kindernay sits inside of the frame, unlike on a Rohloff. It would be difficult to damage it even in a crash

It also has a ‘swap shell’, which allows the rim and spokes to be slide off of the hub body, thus allowing easy wheel changes with the same internals

And it takes some standard parts — 6 bolt rotors and shimano-splined sprockets. Even the sprocket lockring takes a Shimano external BB tool

Kindernay also do a 14 speed hub that is a more direct competitor to Rohloff, as they have the same 530% range. I’ll not talk much of that though, as this post is going to be long enough

Weight

The hub, sprocket, torque arm, and external mech of the Kindernay 7 (i.e., everything on the rear axle) weigh 1500g.

This is ~400g lighter than a Rohloff

For comparison, a Deore hub, cassette, and shifter weigh 1330g, SLX 1180g, and Sram GX electronic also weighs 1180g (with a Hope Pro 5 hub). So, in terms of rear end weight, the Kindernay is closer to these than to a Rohloff

Now, I definitely notice the extra weight, but I’ve been riding exclusively single speed for years, so I’ve effectively just added a full kilogram to the rear compared to what I’m used to. If I’d gone to this from a SLX set up, I doubt I’d have noticed

I still found it plenty maneuverable enough around the techy Ilkley Moor trails today

Shifting

The Kindernay has a beautiful hydraulic shifter and the hub itself shifts under load much more readily than a Rohloff

So, while shifting with the Rohloff on my gravel bike is def its achilles heel, I actually find the Kindernay shifting to be better than the previous derailleur gears I had. It’s really good

I also found the ability to shift without pedalling incredibly useful. Say you’re hitting a berm with a sharp incline on the exit, you can change gear mid-corner, and get on the pedals straight away on exit

I should preface all this, however, by saying I never made it past 10 speed mechanical derailleurs. I’ve no idea how a 12sp electronic setup compares

Cost

Mine was £1250, so about £100 more than a Rohloff

In the Kindernay’s favour is the fact that, if you want trigger shifters for a Rohloff, that’s an extra few hundred quid (and they still aren’t as good as the Kindernay one), and the Kindernay uses some standard parts. For example you can get a Shimano DX sprocket to fit it for less than a tenner

In Rohloff’s favour is that they can be picked up second hand for £600-700 and sold for the same a few years later. Kindernay’s are hard enough to buy new

If the Kinderday proves as durable as a Rohloff it’ll end up being cheaper than a few years (or a decades) worth of decent quality drivechain parts

Drag

Right now, the thing is damn noisy in the higher gears. Apparently this settles down after the first oil change, and probably continues to quieten over the first few 1000km

That said, the efficiency feels similar to my Rohloff already (and that’s well worn in) but it’s too early to say much

My understanding of the black-magic internals of the Rohloff is that there are 7 planetary gears, and these are then stepped down with another planetary gear to get the Rohloff’s lower 7 gears. The Kindernay essentially just has 7 planetary gears (I think) which may, once it’s worn in, leave it as efficient as the Rohloff’s upper 7, which feel almost drag-free

Overall

I’ve been on the brink of buying a Pinion hardtail for a year, but I think the Kindernay may prove better. A Pinion build would have a fair bit less weight at the rear, but even the lightest Pinion 9sp is 2kg, and you still need a rear hub… I think that’s nearly an extra kg of bike relative to a Kindernay 7

The only place I can see the Kindernay falls a little short is engagement points — trailsy stuff can certainly be a little trickier (I suspect a Pinion would be worse, as it has slow engagement in the box plus the engagement of the freehub). You really can’t beat a single-speed for efficiency and maneuverability, and I did miss it slightly today on the flat, rocky moorland tops

But that’s the other really good thing about the Kindernay compared to a Pinion. It’d take me about 20mins to get my bike back to single speed, if I feel like punishment (or if the Kindernay breaks)

The thing that may put others off is that the gears are really widely spaced — 28% intervals. I put this down as an advantage as being a chronic single speeder I’m not sensitive to cadence, and I prefer having less gears to think about

So, overall I think this thing has saved me buying a Pinion and may even be better for me. And it will hopefully save my knees when I move to Switzerland next month

Sounds good. I was looking at them a while ago, but never in stock ☹️

I think they have one left at Ghyllside Cycles (only uk dealer I think)

That’s 90g shy of an Alfine which I felt the weight of, granted that was coming from 9 speed so smaller cassettes but still chonky. I reckon it’s more of an issue if your overall bike is heavier though.

More like 200g diff I think, as you have to add the Sprocket too

Probably a bit bigger difference if you were running a DI2 Alfine with a motor on the rear as well

Edit: the motor would add another 140g

Thanks for the write-up, legometeorology, I don’t think that threat deserves to go on page 2 already, very informative.

I didn’t know the 7-speed version is so competitive in terms of weight, though I never thought the Rohloff weight is a massive (!) issue. People never complain about not being able to bunny hop despite the popularity of huge cassettes with their own gravitational field and tyres weighing 1000g, and suddenly hub gears apparently make a huge difference… because they are not in fashion? (But then I am biased, I have been riding a Rohloff-equipped bike as my main MTB since 2005)

Is that a Pipedream frame BTW?

What is this silver ‘thing’ above the right dropout, some kind of torque arm, or how does your hub deal with the torque?

The hydraulic shifters on the  Kindernay  are very  neat, though I should plug the fact that I made my own trigger shifters for the Rohloff hub using the Gebla box, 2 dropper levers, and a custom-3D-printed clamp, see

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/new-ish-bike-steel-british-mullet-rohloff-3d-printed-gebla-ztto-shifter/

Sven

I reckon it’s more of an issue if your overall bike is heavier though.

Other way round IME  a heavy bike the hub is a smaller part of the overall weight.

What size sprocket/chainring are you running and what does it compare too?

Also any more close ups of how it mounts etc?

Thanks for the comprehensive write up.

Can we have some photos of how the torque arm works? I’m not well informed on the Kindernay axles – can it work with some kind of horizontal dropouts? (i.e what does it need if you haven’t got sliders or ebb?) I usually make my frames and custom dropouts around 135mm bolt in (eg Hope 10mm bolts) and interested if I could do the same, but obviously with extra attachment point(s) in the dropout for the torque output.

Good luck with Switzerland – which bit are you heading to? I’ve done 3 speed Sturmey mtb in Austria (climbing nearly killed me) and Alfine once in Switzerland – sort of OK, but the drag did take any fun out of road climbs.

Thanks for the bumb Sven 🙂

Yes, I’d been a little scared after reading reviewers saying they couldn’t bunny hop after installing a Rohloff, but having got one I really do wonder about their bunny-hopping skills

Also kind of interesting that, by mounting the battery in the rear mech, Sram just added 200g of rear axle weight to their upper-tier groupsets and I’ve not heard any complaints

So, the silver thing is the external mech. For those that don’t know Rohloff’s, the external mech is mounted outside the non-driveside dropout like this:

The Kindernay mounting is much slicker, as it sits within the drive-side dropout:

The only downside is asthetic, as if your cable routing is up the seatstay as mine is, you have to leave some slack in the hoses so the wheel can be removed downwards (then the shifting box just slides off the axle)

If you have chainstay routing, it looks almost invisible:

with the rohloff you can alter where the shifter mech sits to have it behind the axle with the cables running up the seatstay if you want

Also @Sven, yes, it’s a Pipedream Sirius 4g, so 29er but pre-boost

That Rohloff Pace of yours look fabulous 🙂

Off the top of my head, I’m guessing your Rohloff has saved you in excess of 10 kg worth steel and aluminimum in chains and cassettes since 2005 🙂

As for the torque @mick_r and @IA, it uses an driveside arm similar to the Rohloff Monkeybone. I can’t find a brilliant picture, but this shows the arm and the special post-mount caliper adaptor, which comes with the hub:

@mick_r, you can get 10mm x 135mm kit for the hub, so it would then work with simple horizontal dropouts I think:

https://kindernay.com/product/xiv-match-cap-kit-with-thruaxle/

The only thing you’ll notice from that link is that the conversion kits are damn expensive, as they are integrated with the external shifting mech

@IA, I’m running 36t x 22t. That gives me almost exactly the same range as a 36t x 11-46t system

Oh, and I’m heading to Lausanne. Will prob spend a Lot of time in the Jura rather than the Alps as they are right behind the city (and still 1,700m high!) And yes I’ve avoided an Alfine for that reason…

with the rohloff you can alter where the shifter mech sits to have it behind the axle with the cables running up the seatstay if you want

@tjagain, I wondered about that, but was a bit concerned that would leave the box susceptible to water ingress through the cable entries?

Never thought of that.  The box is alloy and brass mainly but even so water could be an issue.

If the disc caliper is between the seat stay and chain stay you could even have it above  the axle

I do like the fact the kindernay uses stock disc mounts tho – although one really crafty thing with the rohloff is that the disc mounts are the same spacing as a granny ring – so if the hub fails you can flip the wheel and put a granny ring on the disc mounts as an emergency “ride out of the wilderness” bodge – it would be a fixie tho 🙂

nice write up, thank you 🙂

I do like the fact the kindernay uses stock disc mounts tho – although one really crafty thing with the rohloff is that the disc mounts are the same spacing as a granny ring – so if the hub fails you can flip the wheel and put a granny ring on the disc mounts as an emergency “ride out of the wilderness” bodge – it would be a fixie tho 🙂

@tjagain, that’s genius, I had no idea

As for the 6-bolt rotor on the Kinderay VII, I very much appreciate it, but in Rohloff’s defense, the 14 speed Kindernay has bigger internals and hence it does use a bespoke rotor

and thanks @weeksy 🙂

…as if your cable routing is up the seatstay as mine is…

At least it means you can use the cable guides if they run along the right seat stay!

…but was a bit concerned that would leave the box susceptible to water ingress through the cable entries?

I had this geometry on my previous Rohloff build based on an On-one Scandal, don’t think I noticed water ingress, but I also added some heat shrink at a later point.

…I’m guessing your Rohloff has saved you in excess of 10 kg worth steel and aluminimum in chains and cassettes…

And it saved my a lot of money, too, after the initial outlay. I guess the main reason I have changed sprockets and chainrings were because I wanted to try different ratios, not because they were worn out 🙂

…it uses an driveside arm similar to the Rohloff Monkeybone…

Monkey bione is what I used on the Scandal in the picture above, one can even make out the Monkey underneath the left IS bolt.

Sven

Other way round IME a heavy bike the hub is a smaller part of the overall weight.

I get what you mean in terms of weight distribution but overall heavier is never really better, especially in the wheels. Of course that’s not a one size fits all opinion.

I will accept the weight penalty in exchange for reliability, longevity, lack drivetrain wear and shifting wwen srtationary

IGH are far from a perfect solution and neither are derailliers.  Both have strengths and weaknesses

Totally, as I said it’s not a one size fits all opinion. I’d like to try something other than my Alfine or at least give it the obligatory ATF bath to see how good they get.

MY alfine was obviously less draggy and smoother shifting once dunked in ATF.    I degreased it thoroughly first and I also greased the main bearings,  Once yo have done this once tho you need to redo it every year or so really

On weight, I think there’s probably a certain weight above which manuverability of the rear end starts to get difficult

Adding the few hundred grams of a Kindernay to the rear of an otherwise lightweight build is unlikely to put it above that threshold. So I’d guess the relative weight difference may be larger at first but it would be easy to get used to

I have a feeling my bike, being entry-level steel, is getting close to that threshold, but it’s still fine

I’ve heard people say before that a bike can be too light, although I’ve never built something that has that problem…

One thing with the kindernay that gets me. The cage and gear unit separation ( which in principle I love because you can swap the gear assembly between wheels easily) but its only bolted together at one side?  That makes me squirm because of the high off centre loads on 6 bolts.  Does the cage and gear unit have a sliding fit on the other side to the bolts or is there a gap?  One assumes they have got their sums right but it seems to me to be putting very high loads on the bolts

Looks like the Kindernay is predominantly aimed at through axle and post mount – fairly understandable as that is what most modern frames have. Unfortunately it is the opposite of what I mostly build……

https://postimg.cc/4HVxfbSJ

The through axle qr will slip on horizontal dropouts without some kind of chain tug, but guess I could just use a great big nut and bolt 🙂. The more basic laser cut torque arms would be easy to design into a dropout.

For now I think I’m in the wait and see camp – so definitely keep us updated. Might do something suitable when I next make a full frame.

It’s a pretty tight fit on both sides as far as I’m aware — I haven’t actually removed mine, but you can get some idea in the below pic

It’s also attached by 8 bolts, although I’m not sure that makes much difference over 6. This pic of of the Kindernay 14, which unlike the 7 has a bespoke rotor, that attaches to the hub via the same 8 bolts

From some angles, there looks like there’s a gap, but I’mm 99% sure the cage sits on the thin raised edge on the driveside that’s visible here:

Ah – makes sense.  Then its no issue as the bolts are only taking rotational loads not the up and down ones

@mick_r, would one of the DT Swiss RWS axles hold without slipping?

i.e., the ones that have a QR twisting axle rather than a conventional push-in type (not sure how else to describe it)

https://www.dtswiss.com/en/components/hubs-and-rws/rws/10-mm

Minor update on this: I still really like it, and continue to see the slow engagement as the main issue on techy trails. On the road, the noise of the higher gears is prob the biggest concern, although this should settle down in time

The shifters, however, are a nightmare to bleed

To be fair, I was warned by the UK dealer. What I have now learnt, however, is that I don’t have the skills to do this myself, having never even bled a brake over the 3 decades I’ve been riding. It’s the type of fiddly, patience-requiring task I’m simply not good (I guess also why at school I was good at chemistry theory, but terrible in the lab). So my bike is out of action until I can get the lbs to have a look.

Given my inability to sort the shifters myself, I’m having second thoughts about taking this thing to Switzerland with me when I move this month. (I’m also having second thoughts about moving to Switzerland, which is the reason I abandoned single speed.)

So on to the steath(less) ad: if anyone is speculatively interested in this, drop me a message

FYI, for anyone following this thread, I now have this advertised in the classifieds

(and I’d also consider a swap/part-x for 650b wheels or a road bike)

Kindernay has just gone bust I believe?

Hu, yep seems they have. Hopefully they’ll be some sort of takeover though according to the below.

https://www.swisscycles.com/the-kindernay-14-speed-gear-hub-is-no-longer-they-went-bankrupt/

I’ve got a Kindernay too. I’ve had it for almost three years but only just built it all up with a Gates belt. It took a slight modification as the lock ring sat too proud for the shifter attachment. But other than that, it’s now working great.

BUT, and it’s a big but for someone who likes a quiet bike…it’s DAMNED noisy. Some gears (lower) it’s almost silent. Higher gears it sounds like your freewheeling even when pedalling but not too bad. Though the middle gears that you’d use for most cruising around sound terrible. The hub uses effectively straight cut gears and as we know from racing cars with straight cut boxes, they are noisier. But on a bike, I’m not sure I can cope with it.

tell me, did your hub get any quieter that you noticed? Of course at the expense and now building a wheel I’ll persevere for a while. But I have a niggling feeling I’ll eventually swap it out for an XTR drivetrain at a lower weight and lower (although now additional) cost if the noise remains this high.