[Closed] Hunting Act Amendment...

I have no problem with a managed countryside where vermin are controlled by skilled experts.

I have no problem with hunting for the pot even with dogs.

Killing animals for fun though is a different thing. The mindset required for that should disqualify anyone from holding a govt post.

As I ride through some remote parts of the highlands I keep seeing shooting butts where there is a fence not too far away so the deer can be constricted in the area close to the shooters, and also nearby feeding stalls so the deer can get accustomed to the area and humans.

In these areas I have got very close to the deer and when they move off it is at a walk. These are tame fat animals. That is a huge contrast to the way it used to be. Then if you got within a few hundred yards of a deer, it would be off like a bullet.

It takes a sick, sick psychopath to think that is sport.

And as for watching dogs tear apart a fox, that's down there with bear baiting etc.

A fence not too far away so the deer can be constricted in the area close to the shooters, and also nearby feeding stalls so the deer can get accustomed to the area and humans.

In these areas I have got very close to the deer and when they move off it is at a walk. These are tame fat animals. That is a huge contrast to the way it used to be.

I know what you mean, just the other day I rode past a load of sheep that had been delibaretley fattened up to the point they could barely walk, and penned in behind a wire fence so that some sick bastard could load them into a wagon and shoot them in the head from point blank range - all so some other perverted retard could enjoy sucking the flesh from their bones

It's a sick, sick world we live in!

so that some sick bastard could load them into a wagon and shoot them in the head from point blank range

That sounds like fun. Is it an Olympic sport ?

ninfan - Member
...I know what you mean, just the other day I rode past a load of sheep that had been delibaretley fattened up to the point they could barely walk, and penned in behind a wire fence so that some sick bastard could load them into a wagon and shoot them in the head from point blank range - all so some other perverted retard could enjoy sucking the flesh from their bones...

A reasonable point about how our meat arrives at the table.

But I doubt you'll find many people involved in that process doing it for fun, or paying to participate. And if they did, what would you think of them... ?

Would the level of enjoyment involved make any difference to the animal?

Do you think that abattoir workers should cry while they are doing it, or go home conflicted and upset about their choices in life? Would that make slitting an animals throat without stunning any less painful?

I personally can't see how the moral justification of a deer being shot by a professional or recreational stalker makes any difference, presuming they are equally proficient (and there is a recognised training and certification regime in the form of DSC1 and 2)

Expand that to pheasants, and which do you think is more cruel? Intensive chicken (lives in a shed for 38-40 days then gets a 100% chance of slaughter in a factory) or pheasants (gets released into the woods at 45 days(ish) and then spends 3-6 months living free before a 50% chance of getting shot)

Nobody in the modern, western world really [b]needs[/b] to eat meat, do they?

ninfan - Member
Would the level of enjoyment involved make any difference to the animal?...

None at all.

But it is still a sick human who kills and maims to get their fun.

(You know, fun - like the enjoyment you get from riding your bike, a good night out, or similar)

(You know, fun - like the enjoyment you get from riding your bike, a good night out, or similar)

Or eating a nice juicy steak?

oh, sorry, it's OK to enjoy the [b]product[/b] of an animal being killed (an animal that's been reared and fattened just for it to be killed) just not to enjoy the actual killing?

It's like saying that it's OK to enjoy watching child porn, as long as you're not the one doing the abuse...

ninfan - Member

oh, sorry, it's OK to enjoy the product of an animal being killed (an animal that's been reared and fattened just for it to be killed) just not to enjoy the actual killing?

i think you've got it.

It's like saying that it's OK to enjoy watching child porn, as long as you're not the one doing the abuse...

it's gone again.

i'm sure / i'd like to think that fox-hunters don't really enjoy the killing, it's the charging about on horseback they enjoy (i can see why). The hunting/killing thing just gives their charging about [i]purpose[/i].

It's like saying that it's OK to enjoy watching child porn, as long as you're not the one doing the abuse...

Sweet mercy. Are you for real?

i'm sure / i'd like to think that fox-hunters don't really enjoy the killing

Why not? Why shouldn't they?

What exactly is the moral difference between enjoying the killing and enjoying the product of the killing?

Nobody is suggesting they are going to be jerking off over it, but to enjoy and take pride in a job well done? Why the hell not?

Tories bottled it then.

[i]Tories bottled it then. [/i]

bit early in their term to have to suffer a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

I did wonder if the whole thing was to get the SNP to declare they'd vote on an 'English matter' and strengthen the case for 'english votes for english issues'.

did wonder if the whole thing was to get the SNP to declare they'd vote on an 'English matter' and strengthen the case for 'english votes for english issues'.

Yep, I think it's fairly clear now - I think iseeing them stick their oar in, and declaring that it was largely political* will have galvanised some real support for EVEL

* see SNP statement:
"[i]We are in a situation where the Tory government are refusing to agree to any amendments to improve the Scotland Bill - which are supported by 58 of Scotland's 59 MPs - and imposing English Votes for English Laws to make Scotland's representation at Westminster second class.
"In these circumstances, it is right and proper that we assert the Scottish interest on fox hunting by voting with Labour against the Tories' proposals to relax the ban - in the process, reminding an arrogant UK government of just how slender their majority is - just as we will vote against the Tory welfare cuts next week, and appeal to Labour to join us."[/i]

[quote=bruneep ]Tories bottled it then.

Well I suppose that depends whether you'd describe them postponing it because they'd lose the vote now but will win it once they've stopped the SNP MPs from voting on it as "bottling it".

What exactly is the moral difference between enjoying the killing and enjoying the product of the killing?

Are you for real?

You can't see the difference? Is there really no nuance in this issue for you? It's just black and white?

ninfan - Member

What exactly is the moral difference between enjoying the killing and enjoying the product of the killing?

i'd suggest that's something every individual might do well to contemplate.

(including me)

SNP should have kept schtuum on their reasons until after the vote on fox hunting, imo.

I think SNP are going to get taught a lesson about the consequences of trying to throw their weight around when they're not the heaviest beast in the jungle.

To be fair to the SNP they seemed to have become the de facto opposition in the face of the already completely useless and irrelevent labour party now expending what little clueless energy it has on navel gazing, and generally flailing about.

I'd say that in poking some toffs in the eye with a stick (because thats what this is really about), the SNP are probably representing a big chunk of their voters pretty well.

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly depressing that once again parliamentary time is being given over to this ridiculous matter, that effects how many people exactly...?

Its a very British way to conduct a class war

[quote=binners ]Am I the only one who finds it incredibly depressing that once again parliamentary time is being given over to this ridiculous matter, that effects how many people exactly...?

Almost as depressing as incorrect use of the word "effects" 😉

Though seeing stuff like this going on does reinforce the impression that it's all a load of playground games, even to the SNP MPs who claim to be different.

wwaswas - Member

bit early in their term to have to suffer a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

This [i]is[/i] a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

Well I suppose that depends whether you'd describe them postponing it because they'd lose the vote now but will win it once they've stopped the SNP MPs from voting on it as "bottling it".

The Tories will being in EVEL and return to this fox hunting vote and pass it that way. Many people would call this cheating - for the Tories to be seen to be cheating can only be a good thing in my book.

At some point the opposition of all parties will realise that the Tories are getting really quite good at this politics thing (not necessarily the same as being good at running country).

In just 2 weeks they've managed to paint themselves as the party of the blue collar worker and Labour as the party of skivers. Plus have managed to paint the SNP as the typical stereotypical Scot who support anyone but England. The 2nd of these is even more amazing when you consider they have turned a defeat by their own backbenches into a win!

Be interesting to see what concessions they can get out of Europe now, and then try and strangle the UKIP vote.

If anything is more calculated to get the Tory rebels back onside on the EVEL issue it is the impertinent Scots poking their noses into English fox hunting business, even though it is pretty much just bringing it in line with Scotland.

The ironic aspect is that most Conservative ministers are not particularly bothered about the fox hunting issue anyway, it’s only been reintroduced as a sop to the right wingers. Even more ironic is the fact that for Conservative and Labour MPs it’s a free vote. Only the SNP are telling their MPs how to vote. You really couldn’t make it up. Cameron will be rubbing his hands in glee!

Funny how things change

Nicola Sturgeon, [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/08/nicola-sturgeon-snp-mps-will-vote-on-english-issues?CMP=share_btn_tw ]Feburary 8th 2015[/url]
“The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as foxhunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that. Where any issue is genuinely “English-only”, with no impact on Scotland, the case for Evel can be made.”

SNP website, May 19 2015: https://archive.is/racY4
“The SNP has a long-standing position of not voting on matters that only affect England. The Hunting Act is one such matter that purely affects England and Wales, and so SNP MPs would not vote on this issue.”

“The SNP has a long-standing position of not voting on matters that only affect England. The Hunting Act is one such matter that purely affects England and Wales, and so SNP MPs would not vote on this issue.”

Some might say that the Scotland Bill which only one Scottish MP agreed with and 58 did not means that it's open season and all bets are off.

Some might say that the SNP have just shot their own fox 😆

Some might say that the Scotland Bill which only one Scottish MP agreed with and 58 did not means that it's open season and all bets are off.

The Scotland Bill affects the whole UK.

Just as EVEL affects the whole UK and so if it were tabled as a bill then the SNP should get a vote on it. But it's going in by the back door instead - perhaps technically right but morally wrong.

You underestimate Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP are just wasting no time in giving Dave a prod, and reminding him just how slim his majority is

I'm out and about a lot and cant say I've seen more than one or two fox's in the lasst year. Are they really a sustantial enough risk to chickens and such that they need large culling operations?

Nicola (bless her) has said that the SNP have had requests by ordinary English voters to act on this. They find themselves playing the role of opposition while Labour, err, I'm not sure.

Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

The headless chicken dance?

The SNP are far more organised and coherent (so much so that they are being whipped on a free vote). If the Labour leadership could muster a brain cell between them then the SNP would not be nearly so popular as they are.

ninfan - Member
Some might say that the SNP have just shot their own fox

I think that's the case, but they have usually thought out their actions several moves ahead, so it will be interesting to see if this is to deliberately prod the Tories into an over reaction.

i'm sure / i'd like to think that fox-hunters don't really enjoy the killing

Of course they do, I know a guy who is obsessed with shooting, he's a farmer and carries his gun all day in the tractor as well as lamping by night and shoots everything that moves on his farm; crows, rabbits, foxes, everything. Last time I saw him he'd just been on a beaver shooting holiday in Sweden. It's no different from mountain biking, just another interest/hobby that brings people great enjoyment and they spend all the spare time and money they can doing it.

There are a number of issues here.
The Tories knew, despite their manefesto commitment, that they would never get a repeal through a free vote in the commons as things stand.
So they tried to use a Statutory Instrument, but still failed to get a substantial majority of their own MP's to toe the line- it was touch and go even before the SNP put their oar in.
Even under the EVEL proposals that they have had to kick down the road because, again, they knew they may not get a majority, ALL MP's regardless of where their constituency is, would still be eligible to vote on Statutory instruments

Who has won on this one? Too soon to tell, but as has been said on one of the broadsheet websites, it makes Cameron's task of bringing through contentious UK wide legislation much more tricky, and will continue to do so even after EVEL.

Will they force through an upgraded version of EVEL and then win a free vote on repeal of huntingbin England and Wales? If the polls are right, most of the UK population do not want a return to Hunting as it was pre the Act, and those with slender majorities may do the right thing.

I'm out and about a lot and cant say I've seen more than one or two fox's in the lasst year. Are they really a sustantial enough risk to chickens and such that they need large culling operations?

I probably see a fox a week on average. But i live in he suburbs and we just control the numbers with cars which seems pretty efficient. Country folk just wouldn't understand our ways.

am I right in thinking that the Scots allow hunting foxes with dogs?
Was the amendment meant to come in to line with the scottish law?

Why are the people not bashing the Scottish Toffs for fox hunting?
Why dont the SNP change the law in Scotland if they are so against it in the UK

does anyone else get frustrated with the politics of the UK

does anyone else get frustrated with the politics of the UK

for the SNP they are the politics of separation, EVEL is arguably to their benefit politically

however all the parties north of the border will point to the SNP and say they are going to have English laws for Scottish foxes whether they put it in their manifesto or not 😉

Why dont the SNP change the law in Scotland if they are so against it in the UK

This may be an outcome from today's events, the SNP have made that very point and will probably look again at their own legislation. The biggest loosers may well be the Scottish Hunting Lobby. Bet they are seething this afternoon

Be better if the SNP could concentrate on sorting out their fiasco of a Police force. But hey watching tennis and then playing petty politics with hunting is more important 🙄

Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

They're abstaining on the welfare bill. A bill that's deliberately designed to target the poorest and most deprived people in the UK and make them considerably poorer, and Labour are abstaining on it.

Useless ****ers.

Who's played a cleverer game? The SNP's aim is obvious, they want Scottish independence. EVEL helps with that. But what's the Tories' aim? What do they really want? Do they really want to break up the UK? Or do they think we'll keep being passive and subservient while they continue to sell off the country to their mates?

On foxhunting, there's a desperate attempt to portray this as Scotland vs England. It isn't - 80% of people in England oppose foxhunting. This is rich psychopaths vs everyone else. Just like all the other arguments in politics at the moment.

Be better if the SNP could concentrate on sorting out their fiasco of a Police force.

It's interesting how this is being reported. There are serious questions to be asked about the death in custody, and that should be investigated. But the car crash? The person who reported the crashed car called 101, the non-emergency number. There are still important questions to be asked, but one should be should the public be expected to triage incidents?

On foxhunting, there's a desperate attempt to portray this as Scotland vs England. It isn't - 80% of people in England oppose foxhunting. This is rich psychopaths vs everyone else.

I think it's safe to say 80% of the people in England probably don't have a clue what the SI would have allowed. A similar % probably don't realise that the "peoples champion" is allowing this cruelty to persist in Scotland despite being able to change it for a number of years

how long before English (and Welsh) laws for Scottish foxes? or is the SNP going to dodge and duck an issue that they could implement quickly?

[quote=binners ]The SNP are just wasting no time in giving Dave a prod, and reminding him just how slim his majority is

On a matter which was a free vote for all the other parties 🙄

[quote=epicyclo ]I think that's the case, but they have usually thought out their actions several moves ahead, so it will be interesting to see if this is to deliberately prod the Tories into an over reaction.

Hmm. The SNP currently manage to look like they've thought several moves ahead. The Tories are thinking so many moves ahead most people don't even notice.

re police, its not just a scottish thing!

fb friend just posted up that she visited her old police station to find the 12 officers on her shift are now 1 PCSO and 1 PC, any ilegal fox hunting in Slough can probably proceed with imunity

So how come no protests outside the Scottish parliament against fox hunting?

how long before English (and Welsh) laws for Scottish foxes? or is the SNP going to dodge and duck an issue that they could implement quickly?

Yes, the SNP need to get on top of that quickly. Hopefully this'll push them that way.

i'm sure / i'd like to think that fox-hunters don't really enjoy the killing

It depends what you mean by fox hunters. 90% of a "fox hunt" is made up of hobnobbing subscribers, interested in little more than trotting along swapping village gossip, and they'll rarely be present at a kill. They will likely see the mangled remains of a fox. It's like being fond of meat but distancing yourself from the slaughter - you know it happens but let's not think too much about it.
The people at the sharp end of a hunt (terrierman, master and whippers in) undoubtably enjoy it. 20 something years spent as a hunt sab trying to get in between the terrierman and the exhausted animal have left me in no doubt of that.

80% of people in England oppose foxhunting

?

Yougov reckon 51% support the ban, 33% oppose it:

However, given a more complex choice, such as the changes actually proposed, the ORB survey shows only 40% want to see no change, 24% support the 'full pack' revision, and 16% total repeal:

Hahahah - the thoroughly shot down LACS/Mori polls:

[img] [/img]

am I right in thinking that the Scots allow hunting foxes with dogs?
Was the amendment meant to come in to line with the scottish law?

Why are the people not bashing the Scottish Toffs for fox hunting?

grumpysculler - Member
...Some are, the SNP don't like to draw attention to it. Their adherence to the political hypocratic oath exceeds even the Tories.

epicyclo - Member

I have no problem with a managed countryside where vermin are controlled by skilled experts.

I have no problem with hunting for the pot even with dogs.

Killing animals for fun though is a different thing

I reckon that gamekeepers really enjoy their job.
They must do, they don't seem to get paid much.

I understand the subtleties regarding the arguments against hunting - not a fan myself, but......

I eat meat and drink milk.
I really enjoy it. I'm equally as responsible for the death of the animals as the slaughterman that killed them.
No problem with that.

I also like fishing.
Well, some of it.
I hate the commercialised fisheries that seem of have sprung up - the UK equivalent of shooting a caged lion.
Overstocked and infested with ****ers.

But I do like a day somewhere quiet, torturing fish/enjoying the 'sport'/insert own prejudice here.
I don't eat everything I catch.

I do find the concept of watching a fox being ripped to pieces by dogs repulsive - and that the enjoyment of it would appear to be perverse.

However, I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy and contradiction inherent in my position.

I think it's easier to point at others than to address your own reality.
An essential, sometimes ugly ability that stops us going mad.
🙂

when humans start caring about the horrors inflicted upon their own species, the children, the elderly, the infirm and the impoverished. Only then will I give two shits about what is to be considered "humane".

Did you mean to put "Tories" instead of "humans" there?

[quote=epicyclo ]You realise that the continued chant of SNP Bad doesn't work anymore?

Well only because he's either preaching to the choir or to those with their fingers in their ears.

I reckon that gamekeepers really enjoy their job.
They must do, they don't seem to get paid much.

I imagine they do, if you like working outside and are from those areas it is probably a pretty dreamy job. A lot of estate workers are born into it anyway and live it from a young age, probably hard to do anything else for many of them.

But I do like a day somewhere quiet, torturing fish/enjoying the 'sport'/insert own prejudice here.
I don't eat everything I catch.

Yes me too, though I'm pretty terrible at it, I think my trout dinners worked out at £45 each last year. I'm not one to fish for pellet pigs in a put and take fishery either, no appeal at all. Catching mackerel and cooking straight away on a fire on a west coast beach or catching a couple of pan sized brown trout on a loch in the middle of nowhere to cook back at the tent I do find satisfying though. Mmm mackerel.

I don't think it is totally hypocritical to do that but also object to fox hunting though, I don't think fishing is any more cruel than any other method any predator uses to obtain another animal to consume. However shooting something you aren't going to eat just for the thrill of the kill and the ritual and ceremony of fox hunting etc just seems wrong and pointless to me.

As grumpy says, the SNP are voting in Westminster for stricter laws than they have created in Scotland. It's just another example of the awkward squad. I do think it's interesting every newspaper / website story I've seen shows a picture of people in red jackets on horseback whereas this amendment is about shooting foxes. You rarely see foxes in France as the locals shoot most of them.

@ jamba - I've read that the current law in Scotland was set out by Lab / LibDem and the SNP are working on changing it. Which possibly makes the vote in Parliament relevant to Scottish issues, moving the goalpost or whatever, then definitely demolishes your first argument.

the ritual and ceremony of fox hunting etc

I suspect that for a lot of people this is the main problem. They won't have put a lot of thought into it and because of the pomp and the fact that it's mainly a toffs sport means they're against it.

whatnobeer - Member
...and the fact that it's mainly a toffs sport means they're against it.

I think you'll find the folk who don't like psychopath killing games are equally repulsed by a bunch of chavs hanging around a dog fight.

Looks like it's been canned.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/14/foxhunting-vote-shelved-by-tories-in-face-of-snp-opposition

Looks like it's been canned.

For the moment. Still, it was a useful distraction from the Tories' latest attack on the poor.

The problem with the "SNP Bad" arguments isn't that the SNP aren't bad - they're far from perfect. The problem is that it shows a total lack of imagination - it's far easier to attack someone else's principles instead of having some of your own. And when it's Labour doing it - the Labour Party who are abstaining on the welfare bill - it's just hypocritical.

Think all this was designed to show up the SNP for who they actually are, and what they think they stand for and to put that on a public stage. Now everyone knows their lack of integrity they'll be easily managed in the future.

As for the Hunting, I've done a bit BITD with the Ashborne lot. Stabled horses for a couple and went exercising the Hounds quite a lot. You lot do realise just How they exercise Hounds don't you?
Hmmm, yes thats right.. You let them run free in a pack in a few acres of fields. You can guess which fields are chosen to let them run free in, and the inevitable consequences.
Just thought I'd point that out for the hard of conscience.

not quite with you bb - you accusing them of using atrocious behaviour as a means of making apalling behaviour more acceptable ?

Don't forget it's also binned because Dave can't rely on the support of all of his party.

You're right bikebouy the SNP has been shown up as the voice of decency in the country as they smacked down the Tories atempt to soppurt a bloodsport the vast majority of the country object to

Personally I don't care really what mechanism was used to prevent the relaxing of the hunting sanctions, just glad it happened.

The only irony that sits strangely with me - as I understand it this amendment was going to make the law in England and Wales in line with the law as it stands already in Scotland. The law the Scottish parliament is able to amend there too if it so wished. Surely by making this stand Sturgeon is rather honour bound to return to Scotland and amend the Scottish law to bring it in line with the English and Welsh equivalent?

Or.... she could get the Scottish Tourist board to market the highlands as a fox hunting utopia and the toffs would all flock north of the border to gallop around in their red jackets

Kerching!

Surely by making this stand Sturgeon is rather honour bound to return to Scotland and amend the Scottish law to bring it in line with the English and Welsh equivalent?

Yes, hopefully they'll get on that pretty sharpish.

Sturgeon is in Scotland already though - she's not a Westminster MP.

Sturgeon is in Scotland already though - she's not a Westminster MP.

I know.

[pedant] actually yesterday when all this happened she was in London; marketing Scotland as a business location base. That's why I said return to Scotland because she is not actually physically in Scotland at the moment [/pedant]

I think there was enough public opposition to repealing the ban that the SNP can say with some legitimacy that they were right to say they would vote No. That's what an opposition party does - they oppose stuff they don't believe in

Cameron can bump his gums all he likes, it was an unpopular policy anyway. Secretly he's probably glad its been kicked into the long grass.

What's hilarious about this is remember how before the election the Tories kept saying that a vote for Labour would let the SNP dictate government policy? There were posters and everything.

richmtb - Member

I think there was enough public opposition to repealing the ban that the SNP can say with some legitimacy that they were right to say they would vote No.

Yup. At the end of the day an MP's job is to represent the people; here it's straightforward to argue that the SNP represented the will of the British people, and that ironically the tory party weren't representing the will of the english people that elected them. It won't always be like this, I suspect.

The will of the government is not the will of the people- though a lot of governments forget this. Trouble is, it's pretty open to partisan representation. The story to many people will still be "undemocratic SNP overrule majority government"

looks like the SNP managed a couple of things yesterday.

A) They gave Dave a reality check - reminding him his majority is wafer thin, so he can forget the giddyness of the last few weeks, and choose his battles more carefully. Something which definitely neeeded to happen, because....

The labour party is a complete and utter waste of space. The SNP reminded everyone of that too, as if we needed reminding. To all intents and purposes, they are now the official opposition. While the irrellevent Islingtonites navel gaze for a few years. Looks like they've figured that out, and acted on it. Good!

I'm sure that the Tories and their right wing friends will be apoplectic at them for having the temerity to excercise the democratic mandate that sent them to Westminster in the first place. And will be full speed ahead to try and put a stop to it

Err, my thoughts ^^ related to the Tories using this amendment as a foil to bring out the SNP stance and make that public, and make the public aware of the SNP's stance on future amendments to [i]anything[/i]... I think it worked, worked quite well. I think the Tories chose a typically touchy subject which JoePublic has a specific opinion on (either way) rather than a topic/subject that JoePublic is ambivalent about.

As for SNP's "power" or perceived "power" well only the next year will show that won't it. But at least JoePublic now knows where the SNP stand, or intend to stand on pretty much [i]anything[u] the Tories try to put through.

There will be only so many roadblocks put in the way before they get bulldozed over.

[quote=bencooper ]What's hilarious about this is remember how before the election the Tories kept saying that a vote for Labour would let the SNP dictate government policy? There were posters and everything.

Yeah, I think it's hilarious the SNP supporters think they're dictating policy by blocking something there was a free vote on.

don't understand the big deal about it TBH

aracer - Member
Yeah, I think it's hilarious the SNP supporters think they're dictating policy by blocking something there was a free vote on.

I think the SNP folk are more realistic than that.

But most of us up here are enjoying seeing Cameron getting a poke in the eye. 🙂