how to get better at running

After years of shin splints, I can now manage some reasonable runs (well, for me). Ultimately, I’d like to do a marathon.

The training plans I’ve seen I either for total non runners, starting with ten minute walks or they are for people with a 6 month foundation.

If I want to build a bit of a base before doing the second option, would I be better off doing three 3 miles runs or two 5 mile runs?

Or, should I do the novice plan but sub in a couple of runs instead until the program catches up with where I am?

Runs so far have been between three and five miles. If I extrapolate the pace, I’m on for a four hour marathon.

If I extrapolate the pace

Doesn’t work that way I’m afraid, it’s far too long a distance to try and use your pace from such short runs.
I went to a local sports physio who ia also a very good runner, scottish 10k, half and full marathon champ a couple of years ago for advice. She drew me up a plan, and wouldnt take money, just wanted me to get a few post run massages, which I did. I got a hip injury 14 miles in, which curtailed me, but managed to finish. Box ticked, dunno if I’d do it again.

Cheers. When I say I extrapolated, I mean my polar watch did and gave me a “running index” which said about 4 hours for a marathon.

Do both.

Vary your training including longer slightly slower runs and shorter faster ones.
Distance training is very straightforward (harder to physically achieve sometimes!) and as a very basic framework you could write it on the back of a stamp! it gets more complex as you get better.
I would say follow the novice program as building a base is useful before you start adding longer and faster runs as well as intervals, you also want to ensure your shin pain doesnt return. You can always add a mile or so here and there if you feel up to it,

When I was trying to get fit for skiing last year I was going out on the rigid hardtail and every time there was an uphill slope on the road I would shift to a gear that would allow me to stand up and spin the pedals – which would eventually lead to a lactic burn in the thighs.

After several weeks of this I was finding that I wasn’t making much improvement and was still getting as much lactic burn.

So in the final week before skiing I ran 7 miles each day for 3 days, a day off, then another 3 days of 7 miles, and that got rid of the lactic burn onset.

But the point of the story is that normally 2 days of consecutive 7 miles runs are enough to make my knees ache, but not in this case and I then lasted a week of off-piste skiing before my knees ached.

So I think the spinning on the bike – where I was out of the saddle and spinning at maybe 70 cadence and not grinding so having to support my weight on both legs – stabilized my knees by toning up all the muscles around them – and my running was a lot more ‘bouncy’ than normal.

So if I were to do a marathon (I have only done 2 1/2 marathons) I would be considering mixing up my training in a bit more intelligent way than just running.

That would include interval runs of 100 paces of jogging and 50 paces of sprinting and then gasp and repeat, hill climbing out of the saddle on my road bike , and some 7 mile runs with the occasional longer one, and gradually build up the distance I could run.

And I am not sure consecutive days of running are necessarily a good idea so I would stick to a day of rest between.

I over-trained for my first 1/2 marathon and did too much running and it was a long while before I lost the niggley pain in my right knee.

I have been in a similar situation to you, and I have trained for half marathons by running between 3 and 5 miles as often as I could in my lunch breaks and while it will get you round it is definitely not the best way to train. Also second the comment above about over training.

For the first time ever I am training in the way a training plan would suggest and am seeing massive benfits. I do 3 runs a week, one short one of 3 miles at a pace that is fast enough that I feel sick at the end, one of 5 or 6 miles at the pace I hope to do the half in, and one long one, started at 8.5 miles and have added a mile or so each week, at a pace that is so slow it is boring.

I think you have to think about it as training speed and endurance as two totally seperate things on the short and long runs, then the mid distance run is where you stick them together. Like I said I have got much better much quicker than I have done by simply running 5 miles 5 times a week

Not me but a mate at work is training for the Brighton marathon in a month’s time (he started training some weeks back of course, not he’s starting now for a race in a month!)

He was also a competent runner, doing 5 or 6 mile runs over a lunch at work 2-3 times a week, so to start a 20 week programming at ground zero seemed daft, so he carried on his normal regime until the programming caught up with him at that sort of distance. He’s actually pretty fatigued now, partly because he’s getting to the heaviest training weeks before tapering, but also wonders if he needed the rest before starting the programming that starting from zero would have provided.

Don’t underestimate what it takes, a couple of mates have done marathons before, both were what I’d consider pretty fit, and both came back from it broken to a greater or lesser degree.

I’m sat doing the lighting for Roger Black at the moment, I’ll ask him when he comes of stage.

I’m sat doing the lighting for Roger Black at the moment, I’ll ask him when he comes of stage

That will be nice but how much a sprinter will be able to contribute to a question about distance running I dont know.

Maybe have a look at Nik Cook’s marathon training book – it’s a slightly different approach to marathon stuff that throws in a lot of cross training and minimises endless long runs, which are likely to bore you witless and leave you injured. Nik’s a mate, knows his stuff, he’s a Team GB Duathlete, and can’t be all bad cos he raced at Mayhem with us last year on a 69er singlespeed.

Personally I maybe run a couple of times a week over winter – up to two hours at a time – but find runs take longer to recover from than equivalent rides and the impact hammers your legs senseless at the same time. Try to run off road as much as possible if you can would be my advice… 😉

buy this book

helped me no end, with training plans for 5, 10, half and full marathons

I quite like long runs if they’re off road and somewhere interesting. Used to do loads of fell runs in the Dales on my own – amazing scenery and you can be the only one on the hill tops at 7 in the morning!

Set my best ever time by complete accident. Had been in the Alps, staying in Alpe d’Huez village on a cycling holiday. Every day’s ride finished with the climb back up to our Challet (all 21 hair pin bends) and after that I came back and found that my running was completely transformed!

and after that I came back and found that my running was completely transformed!

maybe related to my experience with hill climbing on the bike earlier.

minimises endless long runs, which are likely to bore you witless and leave you injured

According to his website:

“The longest training run is just two and a half hours. This isn’t a short cut but it will stop you wasting time

This is longer than almost anyone I know spends on their long run and I have trained with sub 2:10 runners!! so I think this is a straw man.

Training has to be specific. If you want to be successful at distance running then you have to train for it. Cycling/cross training/swimming etc are all beneficial but the cross over is often marginal and over rated. To run well you need to run but my long runs where never more than 2 hours typically and largely around the the 90 minute mark. At 2 hours we were not far of 18 miles+ so there is no need to do more.

Ones, you running Tarmac or off road?

If your running Tarmac get of the filthy stuff. Should boost your enjoyment rating, and your motivation.

Wretched pavement.

I tried some of those 2XU compression tights for recovery during skiing and found them pretty miraculous.

On Thursday night after a week off-piste my legs and knees were rather shot and I was wondering if I could make it through the next day of the course. I put the 2Xu leggings on after my shower and slept in them – next day felt like I had start of the week legs and no problems all day, even though we had two hikes up the mountain with skis on our pack and a long skate out of a valley at the end.

Mine are pretty tight so I wouldn’t want to run in them as I would look like Max Wall, but I might get the next size up for running in as I have seen good reports – they might also reduce shin splint type injuries as they ‘keep everything in place’.

At this stage it won’t matter too much between 3 and 5 mile runs. Just build it up gradually, once you are doing 10 miles comfortably look at the FIRST program – I’m using it for my 3rd marathon, works for me.

Only 3 weekly sessions and so the space to do other stuff.

If you are only running 3-5 miles you should definitely be following a beginners schedule. It is very easy to over train for a marathon and get injured. You need to be building up really slowly, to the point where at the beginning of your programme it may feel too easy. Definitely run on soft ground as much as you can. I find swapping out some of the easier sessions with some cross training helps to reduce injury from running. It is pointless extrapolating a time from such short runs. It only starts to get hard after 13 miles or so. Have you had anyone look at your running style. You could probably get a few pointers that would reduce the chance of shin splints. I think over striding is a pretty common cause.

Apart from when I’m running just for fun, my short runs are pretty fast, under 5km I try to keep under 22 mins, longer runs need to be be slooowww though, for the record I do the following

Easy run @ 9:30/mile
Tempo @ 8:00
Speed @ 6:45

HTH

Have read a few things over the last ocuple of years on running. For distance go slower than race pace for about 80% of the time.

Some of te top distance runners split a distance into a morning and eve run to reduce the chance of injury.

Train off road as much as possible

Mentioned above one long slow run, one tempo med distance run (or a run where you incerease the pace every km to reduce the chance of injury when cold)

One short fast run, or better still one set of hill repeats

Or tkae Billy blands approach and run 2 hours every night on the fell, i thik a lot of his records still stand today

Some of te top distance runners split a distance into a morning and eve run to reduce the chance of injury.

Actually no. Injuries tend to occur during the warm up part of a run so its actually less injurious to warm up once then extend your run. Many runners train twice a day for practical reasons plus as you get fitter 10 hours is long enough to recover and get another session in. Plus some runs act as recovery and its the case that more running can speed up the recovery process from a previous hard run making the next hard run more effective.

Mine are pretty tight so I wouldn’t want to run in them as I would look like Max Wall, but I might get the next size up for running in as I have seen good reports

Seen enough runners using these and spoken to a number of mates who are not taken in by fads to think that there is some real benefit.

This is longer than almost anyone I know spends on their long run and I have trained with sub 2:10 runners!! so I think this is a straw man.

That’s the longest run in the whole thing not a regular long run. To be fair, Nik’s an international level off-road duathlete and a qualified sports scientist, so he has some idea of what he’s doing, but the beauty of life is that there are lots of different ways to skin anything that needs skinning, so it’s possible that both of you could be right.

The reason I mentioned the book was that it’s aimed at relative novices like the OP and people who might want to combine running with other stuff rather than world-class marathon runners. You might cover 18 miles in that time, but most people won’t.

Anyway, I know enough to know that anyone here knows more than anyone else anywhere. It’s the law 🙂

When is your marathon?

If you feel you haven’t got the base covered then you don’t want to be throwing any speed work in, seriously.

you only want to supplement base training with speed work if you want to improve on a previous seasons base speed, which doesn’t appear to be what you want to do.

Spend 4-6 weeks just running every other day, let the miles creep up but keep the pace really manageable (I’m talking 9.30-10.30 minute miles here). It’ll seem boring but, believe me, you’ll benefit from it.

I’m talking 9.30-10.30 minute miles here

that’s nearly walking, isn’t it.

I am not sure I could run that slow without injury.

This is longer than almost anyone I know spends on their long run and I have trained with sub 2:10 runners!! so I think this is a straw man.

Assuming this paper is based on real data (certainly looks like it) elite runners are certainly doing that kind of distance in their long runs while building base milage.

OP: take it slow (basic, obvious advice), you probably want to build up to regularly doing 40km/week before seriously considering training for a marathon. I’m training for the Madrid marathon at the end of next month, and the milage is pretty brutal: it’s not something you can just start doing without having worked up to it.

As a basic plan I’d be trying to do the following, aiming initially at 5 or 10K races:
1. Shortish tempo run at close to race pace. For a 10K preparation something like 5-6km would be sufficient.
2. Intervals (1-2K warm up and cool down; then 5x1min / 2 min recovery jog or similar, over time build up numbers and shorten recovery time).
3. Long run at easy pace, aim for something over an hour, but under 1:30. Distance is not important, ideally this would be a nice flowing run in the countryside, no suffering involved!

Main thing though: take it easy. If you can do a 5-10min walk before starting to run, it really helps to warm you up.

Always end a run/gym with a stretching session, just ten minutes of quads, hamstring stretches etc can make the world of difference. You will recover for your next run quicker and be less prone to injury. as you increase the mileage this will become more important.

I don’t think marathon training is a good idea if you’ve had shin splints.

Nobeer, who’s the physio you’re talking about?

I trained and raced through my teenage years into senior ranks, but only distances up to 10k.

Basics are one decent long run a week, one fast tempo run (say 5 miles), and two more intense sessions of some kind. I personally trained 6 days a week, but 4 would put you in good stead. 2 or 3 isn’t really enough in my opinion.

Assuming this paper is based on real data (certainly looks like it) elite runners are certainly doing that kind of distance in their long runs while building base milage.

I dont think we are talking about “distance” but time.
I havent got time to read it now (thanks for the link though I will have a look tonight)but regardless (and that may sound arrogant) I think its is unusual to run that amount of time even for an elite marathon runner.
Another myth about long runs is that they should be slow. They should only be marginally slower than predicted race race. This means an elite runner running for 2.5 hours would theoretically be running greater than Marathon distance!
Its common in my limited experience to extend long runs up to around 20 miles give or take which usually comes in well under 2 hrs for a 2:20 runner. Slow is a relative term.

2 or 3 isn’t really enough in my opinion.

Not for a marathon, but enough to see some reasonable gains, a sub 45min 10K for example.

brisk walking is about 13-15 minute miles so no, 9.30-10.30 is definitely running although I imagine you could walk at that pace too.

We’re looking at building a base here though aren’t we? Your response is common, generally people don’t run slow enough on their slow runs and don’t go hard enough on their hard runs.

emzs knows her beans

Very interesting link, thanks for posting.

I’d recommended reading the sub 3hour thread on the TriTalk forum:
http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=48836&sid=133d47ec6b357a2f0b41af1ac55b8bc4

Granted its at 190 odd pages now, but there are a lot of interesting ideas expressed there.

Very slow jogs are not great if you have any aspirations of actually ‘running’ at any time. the mechanics of it are different, you use different muscles, many of which are being used in an eccentric fashion (under tension while stretching rather than contracting) which increases injury risk.

I haven’t got an even planned. I was wondering when an event should be if I fancied one rather than rushing to get ready for one.

As for the shin splints, I’ve been working with a biomechanist to sort the root cause rather than making symptoms feel better. It’s been a long process but I seem to be coming out of the other side so I fancied doing something to “celebrate”

I’m not suposed to jog as that makes me heel strike. If I run, I move to mid/forefoot which avoids the shin splints.

I reckon you’d love the pain associated with training for 800m/1500m then! Plus I consider getting down to a fast time more of a challenge than plodding around 42km.

Ah, but there’s a dream at the back of my mind to do an ironman one day.

Plus I’ve always been better at endurance than speed.

my 2p worth… join your local running/tri club.

i joined mine after xmas and wish i had found it years ago, and believe me i’m not a runner. yes i was scared it would be the domain of the young uber fit, i’d be the token lardy middle aged wheezer, nothing of the sort.

best bit, it drags you out of a dark evening and there is good advice on hand. with the club i now do a 5-6mile social run mon, intervals weds (killer one last night), training tonight and also swim technique after. beyond that theres at east another three weekly runs and a bike ride if i wanted.

i thoroughly enjoy it, and as i said, no way am i a runner!

Excellent advice that man!

I just a plodder, but if you can run sub 22 for 5k, but are looking 9min for the race, then the issue is you don’t have enough long runs in your schedule / under your belt.

I run 22.14 for 5k, but currently running 5.45/km for 16k.

Nobeer, who’s the physio you’re talking about?

Dan, her name is Toni mcintosh.