How long to be a credible Cat 4 or am I just crap (road content)

Without having read back through all the pages…. Are all the races you are doing crits? Might be worth looking at some road races, even in cat 3-4 they are a lot calmer affairs as they’re 2.5 hours ish in general and not an hour of mayhem. Not so many tight turns and corners.

I got all my points in crit races, but would get my backside handed to me more often than not. I much preferred road races though.

Oldgit – it was at the Tameside circuit in East Manchester.

Didn’t need to worry about being able to ride in a bunch cos after a few laps I was mostly on my own 😉

Well done mtbmoto. Here are my 10 milestones:

1. Buy a race license and enter a race (this IS the biggie)
2. Not get dropped (took me a few races)
3. Finish mid pack (needs skill not fitness)
4. Finish top third (Yes!!! I’m a “racer”)
5. Work on the front (actual training required)
6. Contest the sprint (try not to lose position)
7. Bridge to a break (more training)
8. Attack (You have to be able to do something in the race)
9. Contest the points (Cat 3 here I come!)
10. Win! (Hmmm, still working on this one)

Step 1. is the hardest. You’ll soon be at number 3.

I went 1 then 4, dropped in my next two…

Oldgit – it was at the Tameside circuit in East Manchester.

Tameside is all about technique, especially on that lower tight corner. First race I did there I was lapped. Second race I stayed in the bunch. Third race I won. 🙂

That was the 2/3/4 race though so possibly a bit calmer than the 4th cat only affairs. It takes a couple of goes to learn the circuit; its incredibly grippy even in the wet so you just need to learn positioning, how hard you can sling it into the bends and when you can start to pedal out of them. Commonest cause of crashes there is riders clipping pedals as they start to crank out of the bends too early.

Thanks TiRed! Looks like a good list to go at! I’ve got a couple more in the calendar to see if I can improve.

I have to say its a big leap of faith to believe that a bit more experience and improving skills is going make as much difference as being fitter but we’ll see!

Every bit of me was hurting out there today after the first few laps.

How is 2/3/4 calmer? Surely the 2nd cat lads are another step up in terms of fitness?

It’s great when every race starts from #5

I have a trademark move that’ll take about 13 riders off the main field. As you tend to race the same guys week in week out they always let me back in. One of the guys always says ‘here come the Belgians’ that’s who I ride for.
Anyway people always bang on about never doing any work, but you need to, you need to know what it feels like to pop out and have several guys breathing down your neck. You even need a turn just to see what the winds doing, which you’ll never know if you sit in.
Winning feels pretty good 8)
Better to turn up and race than to turn up and ride.

How is 2/3/4 calmer? Surely the 2nd cat lads are another step up in terms of fitness?

Generally, most of the 4ths go into the 4th only race so it’s mostly a 2/3 in reality (I’m a 3rd Cat). By that point, most of the riders have some degree of “track skill” and tactics and the circuit itself is the limiting factor in terms of speed – believe it or not the race is not significantly faster but in terms of how steady the pace is, it’s more controlled. Fewer suicide attacks, bit more in the way of tactics. It’s nothing to do with fitness, it’s solely knowing the circuit and a bit of race craft.

Honestly, don’t give up on it, you did well for your first race. The improvements will come rapidly there so stick with it.

Milestone 5. was really the point where you start to feel like you are competitive. Mixing it up, working, bridging, even blocking for a team member. All good fun. I led out a team mate for a sprint to get enough points for promotion at the end of last season. That surprised a few of the bunch 😆 . It’s not just points chasing.

My E1234 masters races are a lot faster and a lot smoother than my Cat 4 races. It’s easier to sit in because you don’t have to cover the brakes. But the standard of Cat 4 can be pretty high, regardless of what some might say. Can, but not always. Hillingdon (clockwise) today was a bit rough by all accounts, but no crashes. I think it will be reversed next week – much better.

Speaking to a couple of newish club members. Seems they turned up at a local crit to race.
Whilst BC promote the whole licence thing, none of them had a clue what to do or expect, from knowing where to pin their numbers to who and which way they were racing. None finished.
That might explain some of the bizarre accidents I’ve seen. I mean you can give a bloke some cash and race even if you’ve never ridden a bike in your life.
However it’s already much better. The Wiggo effect I reckon.

BTW when did they stop scrutinising bikes?

I think they scrutinised one of the young lads bikes yesterday -under 18 maybe?

Under 18s ride on a gear restriction by age group and should be measured before races. They do tend to have a quick glance through the bunch at Hillingdon for QR angles etc before setting off. But they missed a guy with full mudguards on one of my races.

Asking if it’s anyone’s first race before the start is always a good indication of how it will go. New riders range from keen to ride well and listen, through to no clue and give a wide birth. Sadly a club jersey is no provenance for this distinction. But I have ridden with some shockers!

At Brighton the Cat4s have a commissaire riding at the back of the pack. It’s an excellent idea and should be more widely adopted.

I also think BC should change the rules for promotion: 10 races and N points, where N could be anything from 3-12. But 10 races is required to go from a beginners 5 to a Cat 4 in the US. There are plenty of very good riders in Cat 4 in London who will struggle to get 12 points in a season. And may others who enjoy racing at that level.

Going to get my first BC licence since the mid 90’s (been LVRC since) Can’t see me getting a 3rd cat unless I do 4ths only, which isn’t going to happen in 1/2/3/4 races.

TiRed, to add to the above I’m quite convinced that for some getting their 3rd is more important than the racing.
Some of our guys were blatantly pot hunting for 3rd in 4th only 30 minute races and with as little as 12 riders in attendance you’ll almost get a 3rd by default from just turning up for a few weeks. They’ll be 3rd cats for the rest of their lives. I was a 2nd cat but I’ll be a 4th for the rest of mine.

Just received my first race licence, first race 5 weeks today! Been riding with a good bunch who are pointing me in the right direction but still feel like I’ve got a lot to learn, bloody nervous! Oldgit, you’ve just made me realise I never actually thought about where or how I’d pin a number on on the day…

🙂 Just ask, It’ll just depend on which way your going round so the marshalls can see, simple as that.

Did my first road race today (SERRL Brenchley).
Gosh that hurt! 50 miles at 22.6mph av.
Managed about 20th.

Lot’s to learn.

you should get a 3rd cat license oldgit. Once you get above 4th cat you can’t go back again.

The standard of 4th cat is excellent, in my experience, and they are not races to be taken lightly. I finished about 15th in my first race (Out of 20 ish?) last year and it shocked me. I’ve trained hard this winter and last race I got plagued by punctures and had to drop out, and today was involved in a pretty nasty crash. My main complaint about 4th’s is that anyone with a BC license can race, and that includes people who have never ridden in a group. People make mistakes, but to someone who has no idea how to draft, and the effects of tapping the brakes, it’s devastating. Todays price of a less educated rider going down in front of me: £1500 in bike repairs and some damaged body bits.

The standard in 3rds is far better because it requires you to be consistent and have ridden with a group before. 4th’s to me is just getting more dangerous.

Looking back over the entrants the level of newcomer drops come summertime, late May and on.
Even my old clubs new guys raced from December, come June they’d given up.
Suits me, I hate winter road racing in the UK. Cross on the other hand.

Come down to Hillingdon on Weds evenings for E1234 Masters racing. Starts April 16th at 6:45. Races are every other week (interspersed with a Club 10 TT).

First Cat3 race[/url] (well 234) last weekend. Managed Milestone 4 and was very pleased. As already mentioned above, Racecraft is everything when you have my (modest) fitness. Average speed was 26.6 mph. NP 274 Watts (for 70 minutes). I never got anywhere near the front at any point in the race. 😆

274 😯 How much do you weigh TiRed? (Cheeky **** I know!)

I won my first ever race on Saturday thanks to my team mates controlling the bunch which allowed me to get away. By the time I was done, I’d been on my own for 33mins and came within 150m of lapping the field 8)

Raced a hilly RR the next day, got into a break on the climb but cramped the last time up it taking 10th.

Love racing bikes 😀

What was your actual power as well, presumably a chunk lower than your NP?

And well done DGOAB!

I was in that 234 race TiRed (4th cat).
Pace was very high wasn’t it.
I somehow fought up the pack on the last lap then jumped away on the uphill to take 9th place (1st in the peloton)
Still pinching myself.

Ok, so second crit last night. Dropped again, lapped again. Pace seemed ok whilst in the bunch first few laps but then off the back and that was the end of it.

1 lap down in a 25min crit. So I’d imagine about 1km distance deficit in that time.

This talk about ‘race craft’….where exactly should I be breaking myself to stay with the group? It seems during the straights everyone else is nailing it to stay on the front, it all bunches up at the corner and then stretches out. Should I be fighting harder to stay mid/front pack on the straights – plus holding my position more agressively?

It just seems as the laps go on, I have less and less energy (compared to the others) to sprint out of the corners and the so caled elastic snaps. And this would happen irrespective of where in the group I am.

I don’t doubt I could get a little fitter, but I can’t believe I’m one of only a few in a 25 person race that is that far off the pace?

For those of you that got dropped first race, but stayed in contention on subsequent races – what conscious changes did you make?

This talk about ‘race craft’….where exactly should I be breaking myself to stay with the group?

Have a look around you in the bunch. Every time someone comes past you, you’re losing a place. Repeat that a dozen times and you’ve gone from mid pack to the back. Once you’re there, it’s MUCH harder. All that bunching into and accelerating out of corners? You have to do 3 times the amount of work as the guys in the front 10. Harder braking into the corner, harder on the gas out of it and its just bloody knackering. As soon as you’re near the back, you risk getting caught behind someone being dropped and having to fight your way round them to regain the back of the bunch.

Hold your position in the bunch at all costs. Move up the outside if you have to. Know where you can move up easily, know where you need to stick your elbows out to just hold station. If someone comes past you, make sure you go past someone else to hold yourself in that top third.

The only way you can get away with winning from the back is if you’re very very good and experienced at reading a race and knowing the wheels to follow. And very fit.

I weigh 69 kilos – so 4 watts/kg. I only quote average because it was from my Powercal not my Stages. Average was 263W. Last week[/url] was a new milestone – a proper crash!

Here is the new cat3 bike. It is as fast as it looks and now back to full fettle. Saved about 15 Watts over the Defy SL.

As crazy says, Racecraft is all about watching and countering accelerations, moving into gaps and generally defending position as the race comes to a close. Saving energy for a final push. The fastest don’t always win and the slowest don’t always come last. Ride the same course many times and you’ll soon learn where you can pass riders and where the accelerations come. I’ve ridden at least 500 laps of Hillingdon.

For those of you that got dropped first race, but stayed in contention on subsequent races – what conscious changes did you make?

Never, never, never, never, never give up! Finish every race. You will get fitter. You will stay with the field. You will move up. It just takes time. And be sure to eat a lot two hours before a race. You could be burning 800-1000 Cal/hr.

“If you aren’t moving forwards your going backwards”. Race craft is learned over many races, i think it took me at least a full season to learn it. Now I’m on my 3rd season its second nature but you can’t switch off mentally for a second. The last few laps are crucial to your placing – come out of the corner in the top 10 and you’ll get top 10 generally.

Soemtimes its easier to work / sit on the front and suffer and hold places than it is to be in the bunch and sprinting out of every corner. I generally stay in the top 10 wheels of the bunch if i can, anything further back than that means sprinting out of corners/wasting energy.

Thanks people, so if I understand this correctly expending the energy to stay at/near the front will be less energy than that trying to hang on at the back. And by a significant amount.

I have to say that effort-wise, I didn’t seem to be redlining until I was off the back. Whilst I was still in the bunch, the speed seemed limited by the corners on the course to some extent. So I should be working much much harder at the beginning by the sounds of it.

Not going to give up at all, I’ve paid for another 3 and there’s a few more inbetween the ones I’ve already paid for.

I’m not at all bothered yet about being top ten. First goal is not to get lapped, second stay with the bunch.

TiRed – bike looks ace!

Not going to give up at all, I’ve paid for another 3 and there’s a few more inbetween the ones I’ve already paid for.

That’s the spirit! It is addictive and great fun too. Just focus on STAYING in the top third – that is what everyone else is doing.

There is also a saying – If you are finding it hard, chances are so are the others. I though this was nonsense when I started because I was finding it VERY hard! But gradually I’ve seen it come to be true, particularly near the end of a race where the pace rises and people start to struggle.

It took me a whole season to learn to race and become competitive. There are no shortcuts (well none for us mortals). A team mate is now a very fast Cat2 after starting in October – but he spent a year training with the fast chaingang (and is young enough to be my son 😆 )

First race I stayed far in the top half dozen for the majority, tired on the last couple of laps but got home in 8th.

Next two I decided to hang back and maybe save a little energy for the finish but ended up dropping out the back and fighting to get back.

Best advise I’ve read was

“If you aren’t moving forwards your going backwards”

Need to concentrate more…

cat3

3rd Cat – we are not American! Even if you are, you’re still wrong ;).

I’m not sorry for pedantic!

This talk about ‘race craft’….where exactly should I be breaking myself to stay with the group?

In a road race, I like to sit in wheels 8-12, maybe a bit further forwards if a move is looking like it might go. The minute or so I was further back than 12th wheel in both races I’ve done so far this year there was a crash, and I went down in both, effectively ending my race (bike too broken to continue). Stay near the front if you can. You’re less likely to crash, slightly easier and you can react to attacks.

For Crits, it depends how technical the circuit is, usually wheels 4-10. Definitely not further back than 10th wheel though.

I’ve got an e/1/2/3 120km road race on Sunday, hoping to finish…

So, are road races on the open road such a crazy pace too?

Soemtimes its easier to work / sit on the front and suffer and hold places than it is to be in the bunch and sprinting out of every corner. I generally stay in the top 10 wheels of the bunch if i can, anything further back than that means sprinting out of corners/wasting energy.

I keep on or near the front. I find it far less stressful, and being a worker doesn’t go un noticed and gets you a wheel unlike the too and fro’ing at the back. You also get to know the hard parts of the course being on the front, then later you can let the shirkers have a pop and watch them die yards into the headwind.
Better to go for it and lose and learn than to always play the safe game.

Mtbtomo – if it help you’re not the only one – 3rd race in and I’m staying in more laps though – by being bossy and fighting for my place as described.

Tired – we’ve talked – can anyone enter thee masters race? I can’t do Tuesdays but I could do Wednesdays swapping for the ELV summer series?

Bike looks good TiRed! Nice write up as always.

@mtbtomo

If you do some Strava snooping you can see what the open road race average speeds are.

Masters races are E1234, so yes you can enter. I raced them all last summer and they brought my fitness, handling and race skills on so much more than 4th Cat# 😉 . First one starts 6:45 this Wednesday evening. Sign on is on the night at the clubhouse in Hillingdon. I shall be racing the above machine. Can’t wait! The hole in my leg should have healed a bit more too.

#I’m not American.