Has anyone been on the Alpha Course?

As I said, please apply Darwinian logic to your arguments ……

But Ernie we dont need to discuss Darwin you have made unsubstantiated claims. Just because you tell us there is overwhelming evidence doesnt make it so.

It could be argued that giraffes can eat without the need of their long necks. But it is precisely because of their long necks, that the species has been successful.

Your argument is circular again. Giraffes with longer necks survived more successfully when foraging for food than those without.
Are you making a case against natural selection? What would you attribute the Giraffes long neck too if not natural selection?

It could be argued that giraffes can eat without the need of their long necks. But it is precisely because of their long necks, that the species has been successful.

???

Giraffes with long necks could eat leaves on tall trees when the low down leaves were in short supply. Giraffes with short necks starved and long-necked ones re-produced. Over time the long-necked Giraffes became the norm.

In every single society without exception, throughout history, and throughout pre-history, however large or however small, and however isolated, people have co-existed with religion

Interesting Mike, you are now accepting this baseless assertion as fact?
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence!

I think you're getting a bit garbled now Ernie. The current position of the human race is the product of all sorts of factors. Religion is one of them.

However, living in a secular society (albeit one where people are free to practice whatever religion they wish), sitting here in my nice warm office in front of my computer, it's pretty clear that religion has played a very small part in getting me to where I am.

If you're talking about it in a wishy-washy "the spirit of man will endure" kind of way, well you of all people should know that the will to go on living is pretty strong in most creatures, regardless of whether they have religion, self-awareness or any of that stuff.

I guess if there were no Quakers then some slaves might be bringing me tea, but that's about it. 🙂

As I said, please apply Darwinian logic to your arguments ……

Darwinism is a good example of hindsight. You cannot apply it to us until after we become extinct. However since intellect trumps natural selection it probably doesn't hold for us anyway in the short term, though eventually it may turn out to have been a bad thing for the species (and most of the others)

I'm very much an athiest.

This is a very interesting thread.

Religion: survival of the fatuous :o)

None of them needed to be correct for

In every single society without exception, throughout history, and throughout pre-history, however large or however small, and however isolated, people have co-existed with religion

to be true.

Indeed and it was a flawed statement.

The point being that although lots of people may have had religion, a lot of people worshipping various different higher beings doesn't prove the existence of any of those higher beings.

I have read the thread with interest. I was, in a past life, 'fully Godded up'. Badge, T-shirt and ability to speak in a weird foreign language. I have since realised that I wasted years following such nonsense. I gained nothing. The people I knew through those years are as phucked up as the rest of us, if not more as they leave their phucked-upness for a fairy story character to fix. I am now much happier, I fly solo and the only helping hand i'll get is the one at the end of my own arm. my grounded, non-pretend friends are more valuable and genuine than anyone inside a church ever proved to be.

christians have an answer for everything but a solution for nothing.

desmond tutu was a very nice man though when I met him. But then so are other people who don't wear a silly purple shirt

here endeth the first lesson.

, a lot of people worshipping various different higher beings doesn't prove the existence of any of those higher beings.

I don't think that's ernie's argument – he thinks religion is essential to civilisation, possibly even in the absence of any gods (I'm guessing that bit).

desmond tutu was a very nice man though when I met him. But then so are other people who don't wear a silly purple shirt

it was Tutu who said "When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land"

Insightful.

Well put, iDave.

and ability to speak in a weird foreign language.

Tell me, did you consciously 'speak in tongues' to fit in with the others or was it a spontaneous thing and did it seem comprehensible at the time?

maybe it was latin ?

Tell me, did you consciously 'speak in tongues' to fit in with the others or was it a spontaneous thing and did it seem comprehensible at the time?

it was spontaneous – i can still do it, but it suddenly happened and I have no idea how, i speak bits of a few languages, but this was something else. i never saw any positive outcome from it.

but i've seen bruce parry on TV, and I've also endured extreme physical challenges so i know the power of the mind under meditation/medication

SFB – my last latin exam resulted in 4% mark – twasn't latin!

Firstly I'd like to say some comments on here are utter drivel.

I believe in God and do not believe we are here in this world of ours by chance. Do I go to church. Sometimes my local CofE.

I have seen to many things in my already relatively short life to know that there must be something after death (or at least takes some explaining!). And know I won't go into details as its too personal and painful to talk about (relatives dying etc).

The problem with this country in particular is that we seem to have a barrier immediately come up when any one dares to mention the word 'God'. In Italy it is not uncommon to see people walk past churches in the street and do the sign of the cross. Now if that happened in this country people would be laughed at, scoffed at and probably spat at. I went road riding with a local Italian where we stay in Italy and every Madonna we went past he did the sign of the cross. Thats a faith. And a faith he obviously believes in. Right or wrong I don't give a shit but what I do know he is a great bloke and has a cheeky persona just like any other fella I have met.

Whether you believe in God or not who cares but we are all entitled to our own belief. What gets on my t*ts is when people try to push religion onto you.

Sounds like you and your delusion would be more at home in Italy then.

Thats the answer I expected 😉

You got me! Well trolled..

have seen to many things in my already relatively short life to know that there must be something after death (or at least takes some explaining!).

Something not yet having an explanation yet does not provide proof that there must be something after death.

Now if that happened in this country people would be laughed at, scoffed at and probably spat at.

I doubt that they'd probably be spat at. In fact, I doubt it happens very often at all. I also doubt they'd be laughed at openly but probably people would think something about it to themselves. Sounds reasonable to me – they believe that it's a load of mumbo jumbo, which since it's their own belief is something you have no issue with them holding.

I don't think most people on here have suggested that you're not allowed a religion or to have your own beliefs, nor that religion has never done anything good (eg charitable work that doesn't have any ties into getting people drawn into the church), only that if religion is pushed on people (which I'm pretty sure the bible says that you should do as a christian though probably described as sharing the gift or similar) then they have every right to point out how silly they think it is and to point out its failings and particularly the damage organised religion does and continues to do.

SFB – my last latin exam resulted in 4% mark

show off – on mine the only thing right was my name (possibly)

Firstly I'd like to say some comments on here are utter drivel.

you'll have to be more specific or that will fall into the same category…

and do not believe we are here in this world of ours by chance

does that matter ? Just get on with it while it lasts 🙂

Apparently it's 'back to church' Sunday this coming Sunday! Discussion on Radio 4 now….

Ah well…

1: Evolution is not chance. Belief is not evidence.

2: Unfortunately, until you get over your aversion to exposing personal experience to examination, there is still no evidence.

3: This is not a problem. It is not a barrier. It is merely an opposite point of view that requires evidence. An atheist is happy to accept that there is a god. All you have to do is present the evidence.

4: "aly and every Madonna we went past he did the sign of the cross. Thats a faith.". Obviously. That's the problem. Man makes a funny hand sign. Nothing happens, like prayer – how to do nothing and think you're still helping…

we seem to have a barrier immediately come up when any one dares to mention the word 'God'.

I have no issues with people being free to practice a religion, but I'm really glad we have this sceptical attitude to it in the UK. The idea of state or society interfering with people's lives on the basis of religious belief is a pretty scary one.

it was spontaneous – i can still do it, but it suddenly happened and I have no idea how,

And what did you think you were saying?

I once experienced a load of people "speaking in tongues", (shortly before I completely ended my association with the church, as a teenager).

From what I recall it sounded like,
"mumble, shout, mumble, Ford Sierra, mumble, mumble, Ford Sierra etc.etc."

At the time the Ford Sierra was a very popular middle-sized car. Nowadays, people may say "Ford Mondeo", but, in these aspirational times, probably something more like "BMW 318i"

Aristole – I know, I'm on your side now – it has structure which 'seemed' like a coherent language

it's marketed as the soul speaking directly to bruce springstien – he wasn't there at the time though

as for italy – shit, its great that a token gesture walking past a crumbling relic makes it such a great country, with no bad stuff happening, no corruption, racism, the gommora are of sound mind and joyous action, and the PM loves his people – at least the blonde teenage ones.

An atheist is happy to accept that there is a god. All you have to do is present the evidence.

I bet some are more dogmatic and would evade the evidence. I, on the other hand, am willing to believe in more gods than even the Christians (whether it's one or 3) and I have a plausible theory why gods do not permit the discovery of evidence.

4: "aly and every Madonna we went past he did the sign of the cross. Thats a faith.". Obviously. That's the problem. Man makes a funny hand sign. Nothing happens, like prayer – how to do nothing and think you're still helping…

Helping what?? Its not about helping anything. For that bloke its a sign of respect to something he believes in. With regard to prayer. If someone feels prayer is answered at some point in their life then good for them. You are a sceptic which is fine as are the majority here on this forum and there has been numerous discussions on the forum about religion in the past and whether you believe in a god or not you will be discussing/arguing until blue in the face.

sfb – Such comments as yours : 'Religion: survival of the fatuous :o)'

Is it just me, or are we talking to ourselves? Where are the opposition? Oh well – 307. Is this a record? Or perhaps a miracle.

Shhh Mr Woppit, we're here just quietly praying for you all 🙂

underthesun

Ah, there you are. OK.

1: Prayer is often offered in the case of other people suffering, as an attempt at alleviation. This has been tested, and found to be completely innaffective. That is to say, the outcome was not influenced in any way by the act of praying. Ergo – prayer has no effect on the outcome being prayed about. Feeling something is not evidence (that pesky word again).

2: I often give a sign of disrespect to religious clutterance. The last time was to a bus advert which sought to suggest that the "prophet" Mohammed was the "final peice" in a jigsaw, the other two pieces of which were Moses and the alleged Nazarene. Simplistic drivel, of course, so I felt moved to give it the finger.

The spirit of rationalism was moving in me, obviously. Just redresses the balance, like…

sfb – Such comments as yours : 'Religion: survival of the fatuous :o)'

If you'll pardon me for saying so, faith should be immune to ridicule…

That was a bit of teasing after ernie dragged in Darwin. Although I'm sceptical about believing stuff, I don't care about gods or peoples' claimed beliefs except in a theoretical way – the acid test is what they DO

we're here just quietly praying for you all

Thanks.
Can you ask Him to speed up the healing on my right knee in time for tomorrow night (when I will be riding a bike in His creation (or Buxton))?

" tyger – Member

Shhh Mr Woppit, we're here just quietly praying for you all "

Yes, I was foregetting that the last redoubt behind dogma is prayer. That is: "having thoughts in your head".

Doesn't seem to be working. What a surprise.

For that bloke its a sign of respect to something he believes in.

Something he has been indoctrinated since birth to believe in by an incredibly rich, powerful, ultra-conservative organisation – with the threat of being damned to eternal hell if he doesn't?

I take back my earlier comments. Someone at work's brought in some leftover wedding cake, and I've just eaten a piece of icing the size of a calculator! Hurrah for outmoded dogma! 🙂

I bet some are more dogmatic and would evade the evidence.

Provide the evidence and then we'll see.

TMH. As an interested follower of this thread I feel it time to make it clear you have gone to far. Now speaking in my oficial capacity as God, I have been blamed for a number of things, war, famine, pestilence and allowing mr whoppit to live after his insensitive comments. It is time that I made one thing clear………………..Buxton is not my creation!

Provide the evidence and then we'll see.

Not I. I've already pointed out that to maintain free will gods would have to prevent any evidence. Perhaps the more autocratic gods are just shy ?

Can we just get a comment from the Christians (Catholic or not) about the Catholic Church's position on their use in Africa and HIV infection. Genuinely interested to see how it's viewed and whether anyone beyond those wearing funny hats does genuinely agree.