Has anyone been on the Alpha Course?

Mr Woppit it may have been an awakening for you but you shouldn't assume the same for others.
Atheist discussion has a proud and long history, albeit not made up of bestsellers.

What's this? "I'm considerably more atheist than you"?

Thanks SFB. I suspect you have no real issue with the "thrust" of my point?

I think you are doing what you do well, "dancing on the head of a pin"! I mean this in a metaphorical sense of course.

I agree. My point is the sudden ramping up of the argument into an almost daily media presence and on forums like this occurred after publication.

Me, I was born again!

;o)

What's this? "I'm considerably more atheist than you"?

No. But I am a better reader than YOU it appears!

Me, I was born again!

😆

I can here the scraping sound of the Xtians pulling up chairs…

The simple truth of the matter is that no religious person can provide empirical evidence of a creator.

For me that's a deal breaker and it should be for anyone.

It's all bunk, useful to some, a crutch for others, powerful in the wrong hands but still bunk.

I think you are doing what you do well, "dancing on the head of a pin"! I mean this in a metaphorical sense of course.

you don't see a substantive difference between treating someone as you want to be treated or as they want to be treated ?

I wouldn't want to obsess over details but real philosophical differences are significant.

There's a massive advertising hoarding one near our house that went up a couple of weeks back. Had I a tin of black emulsion in the boot of the car when I first saw it I'd have done it. On reflection I'm too soft to do it, as one of the local PCSOs might have seen me setting up my ladders

Put a hard hat and hi-vis vest on and nobody will question you.

"Best place to hide is in plain sight" and all that.

The simple truth of the matter is that no religious person can provide empirical evidence of a creator

I'm not sure why this would matter. For a fact, if the god(s) allow us free will then this more or less mandates their absence from our awareness, or we'd be forced into belief by circumstance. For my part even if gods regularly came to visit that wouldn't oblige me to conform with their intentions – which I would see as an abuse of power.

For me that's a deal breaker and it should be for anyone.

isn't it hubris to presume to make other people's minds up for them ?

you don't see a substantive difference between treating someone as you want to be treated or as they want to be treated ?

I wouldn't want to obsess over details but real philosophical differences are significant.

Yes I do however debates such as this have a short shelf life so i think we need to use a "broader brush" obsessing with "relative" trivia and semantics (whilst technically correct and I would not argue with your point) adds little.

Must go and eat food.

At the risk of opening the can of worms even further – I would be interested to hear a defence of the idea that the "prophet" Mohammed actually flew to an actual heaven on the back of an actual flying horse…

Any Muslims on here?

And so to brunch.

Mr Woppit – Was it this flying horse?

True. Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things, but what does ever offer to go in religion's place?

Why do you need something to fill religions 'place'?

Are you saying that without religion my life is missing something? Kind of arrogant that.

What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?

Are religions/the religious solely the source of compassion, charity and kindness?

No
&
No

All I mean is that just because the central belief of a religion cannot be proved, it doesn't follow that everything it says should be dismissed.
Christianity, Islam etc. have been putting forward ideas on how humans should treat each other for hundreds and thousands of years. They have a head start. I too would resent anyone saying only religion can provide on thses issues. But without it I think many societies would have descended into 'law of the jungle' behaviour.

But without it I think many societies would have descended into 'law of the jungle' behaviour.

void concept. Humans naturally construct belief systems and they cannot be removed. Unfortunately one of the new religions is a form of endemic capitalism which essentially IS the law of the jungle 🙁

Christianity, Islam etc. have been putting forward ideas on how humans should treat each other for hundreds and thousands of years. They have a head start. I too would resent anyone saying only religion can provide on thses issues. But without it I think many societies would have descended into 'law of the jungle' behaviour.

And these have been based on forerunners to its religions. They brought nothing new and it is arrogant in the extreme to indicate societies and people would not co-exist without religion. There is evidence for the opposite all around us!
If you want to stretch back thousands of years then the old testament has some interesting things to teach us on Infanticide, rape and genocide. Is this where we get out moral teachings?

Er, there have been one or two skirmishes as a result of people disagreeing over which is the correct part of their own particular folklore that requires following to allow entry into paradise…some of which have been a little violent….

People used to worship the sun, they had a massive head-start over us.

As a modern country, it would be nice to think that we were a sophisticated society, buy have a patron saint who performed the miracle of slaying a dragon.

But without it I think many societies would have descended into 'law of the jungle' behaviour.

Do you honestly believe that? Seriously? I'm genuinely amazed and pretty saddened that anyone would have that little inherent faith in people that they'd think that.

I'm genuinely amazed and pretty saddened that anyone would have that little inherent faith in people that they'd think that

But, given the evidence, it's quite a rational stance 😉

I wonder where morals come from?

But, given the evidence, it's quite a rational stance

but it can't be tested so the question is moot

I wonder where morals come from?

people decide what they want to do. Then they make up some reasons

given the evidence, it's quite a rational stance

Eh? You can draw a pretty direct line of violence that was partly inspired or justified by religion, from witch trials to abortion clinic shootings. None of which are endorsed by "mainstream" religion of course, but it kind of gives the lie to the theory that if you're religious you automatically have a decent basic moral compass.

Such an inspiring outlook you have Simon.

it is arrogant in the extreme to indicate societies and people would not co-exist without religion.

The complete opposite is true.

In every single society without exception, throughout history, and throughout pre-history, however large or however small, and however isolated, people have co-existed with religion.

Indeed the existence of religion, is the one and only common thread which all the societies, that have ever existed, have. This indisputably, provides overwhelming evidence that religion is absolutely vital for the well-being of human society and for the success of the species. Furthermore, the area of the brain which deals with religious and spiritual matters has been identified, providing further evidence of the evolutionary advantages of religious beliefs.

If ever there has existed a society without religion, then it has ended in failure, as no evidence of it's existence exists.

Please apply Darwinian logic to your arguments ……

Such an inspiring outlook you have Simon

it was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but if you disagree you'll have to provide evidence. I've read that neurolgically, the muscle impulses preceed the decision…

In every single society without exception, throughout history, and throughout pre-history, however large or however small, and however isolated, people have co-existed with religion.

circular argument

provides overwhelming evidence that religion is absolutely vital for the well-being of human society

No, it proves that a significant proportion of the population feel the need for there to be a god (and I quite liked the earlier quote about our-self importance that we can't just accept that we are transient but rather have to believe that we're more important than that). It proves nothing about religion and how it influences the well-being of human society.

miketually – Member
But, given the evidence, it's quite a rational stance 🙂

So people are inherently bad and only religion makes them behave in a half decent way? OK, I'm hoping that your comment was tounge-in-cheek.

If ever there has existed a society without religion, then it has ended in failure, as no evidence of it's existence exists.

Opened the curtains recently mate? 🙂

This indisputably, provides overwhelming evidence that religion is absolutely vital for the well-being of human society and for the success of the species.

in the same way that it demonstrates that hair is vital to morality & survival

I wonder where morals come from?
If it's from god, then she seems to be procrastinating a bit on the whole being gay is immoral thing. I mean she always used to think it was really immoral, but lately seems to be of two minds on the subject.

In every single society without exception, throughout history, and throughout pre-history, however large or however small, and however isolated, people have co-existed with religion.

SFB is correct.
Ernie you cast your net wide and even accepting your comment

every single society without exception

then one could counter that by saying every society has fought. Is it because they were religious? or would you like to have it both ways.

If ever there has existed a society without religion, then it has ended in failure, as no evidence of it's existence exists.

How do you know? by your own argument this makes no sense.

This indisputably, provides overwhelming evidence that religion is absolutely vital for the well-being of human society and for the success of the species. Furthermore, the area of the brain which deals with religious and spiritual matters has been identified, providing further evidence of the evolutionary advantages of religious beliefs.

You are correct there is an area of the brain known as the God module which is associated with hallucinations that can be interpreted as spritual or mystical experiences. It is directly adjacent to the part that forces some people to believe in Horoscopes. Come on Ernie you must try harder.
Any more "overwhelming evidence"?

In every single society without exception, throughout history, and throughout pre-history, however large or however small, and however isolated, people have co-existed with religion.

But which of these many different religions and gods is the right one?

People have always tried to influence an assumed "higher being" to make events work in their favour. Does that, in any way, prove the existence of that higher being?????

I wonder where morals come from?

Simplyfying but essentially you have two choices here
1. God chose morals on a whim – not agood choice
2. God chose morals for a reason – anyone can see the reason for the choice

To claim that without religion we would not have morals is ridiculous.
I mean as if I would covet my neighbours ass!

I mean as if I would covet my neighbours ass!

that would depend upon your neighbour and their ass, but it's probably best to have the guidance there, just in case 😉

Opened the curtains recently mate?

Yes I have. And I am also aware of the evolution of human society and the species. We are we are today, precisely because of religion. There is no evidence that humans could have left a small area of East Africa and successfully spread throughout the world without religion. And this claim is false :

"it is arrogant in the extreme to indicate societies and people would not co-exist without religion."

Indeed, it is arrogant in the extreme to indicate societies and people could co-exist without religion.

It could be argued that giraffes can eat without the need of their long necks. But it is precisely because of their long necks, that the species has been successful.

As I said, please apply Darwinian logic to your arguments ……

But which of these many different religions and gods is the right one?

perhaps we could work it out statistically on the basis of which one drops the least bombs ? I think the answer is Zoroastrianism.

But which of these many different religions and gods is the right one?

None of them needed to be correct for

In every single society without exception, throughout history, and throughout pre-history, however large or however small, and however isolated, people have co-existed with religion

to be true.

Jains? Nice non binary logic system to.

EDIT

In every single society without exception, throughout history, and throughout pre-history, however large or however small, and however isolated, people have co-existed with religion.

WHen I look at human history I do see people living side by side in religous harmony. I see the Crusades as nowt but friendly banter and I look today at Israel and see religions living side by side in peace and harmony.
Hallelujah Inshalla

FFS the same religions cannot even live side by side can they?
Catholics /protestants Suffis / other muslims Orthodox / non orthodox jews even in Israel what utter nonesense to even suggest this.