Has anyone been on the Alpha Course?

<wake up mode>
"ghostburster"
Now that is interesting – can i borrow your Tesla coil please?

I work in an environment, where not only is christianity discouraged, but we now actively try to avoid employing avid christians on the grounds that their judgement is fundamentally flawed, and good intentions or not….they are more trouble than they are worth in the environment I work in.

Unless you work in a mosque, isn't it illegal to disciminate on religious grounds?

yup, you'll need a big boot though……….

isn't it illegal to disciminate on religious grounds?

I wasn't aware there were any laws on religious discrimination – and why would they be suspended in a religious institution ?

Do you mean Jonathon Edwards? He was a triple jumper.

Ah yes. I know he's a triple-jumper. I had an image in my head of him triple-jumping while my hands typed 'pole vaulter'. Maybe there are forces beyond our comprehension at play?

isn't it illegal to disciminate on religious grounds

Other than where it is enshrined in law, I thought that too. Having said that if your religious beliefs make it impossible to do the job, e.g. a jewish/muslim pig farmer, then it would be a difficult one to prove.

"t helps me cope day to day with caring for my severly handicapped son, it gives me reasoning, solice and comfort. "

Perhaps your son would be better off being cared for by professionals? You wouldn't need your jesus crutch then. I'm sure it's very comforting but as I said before – being comforting doesn't make it true. You have to prove the case, and that has not yet been done.

Ummm sorry just felt a little angry at your remark.
Yes some days im barely able to cope, others and in fact always Joel is an amazing gift from God (expecting a few remarks on that one :).

Before I had Joel I had no concept of what 'Love' (agape, might have to google agape)) is. Through Joel I have come to a deeper level of understanding of what love and patience is that I might have otherwise never experienced in my whole life. Another thing that I have realised about life (whilst were getting all deep and spiritual) is that sometimes out of the shi**est situations you can make/enjoy something truely beautiful.
I do get 'help' next year we will get our first overnight respite and I get help on Saturdays from a sessional worker, Joel is also in a special school which is amazing.
I would never just 'hand him over' to social care (although some people do because sometimes it is too much), but if my 'faith'in Gods love means that Joel can stay togehter as a family, that it helps my marriage stay strong (I should point out that about 80% of marriages with a child like Joel in the mix end in divorce)that can the way God sustains me be a bad thing?
I also would have never tried MTB if it wasnt for being a Christian, but thats another story 🙂

"Unless you work in a mosque, isn't it illegal to disciminate on religious grounds? "

No actually, there are plenty of places where it's not illegal.I work in a place founded on atheist and humanist principles. anti-theism is in our charter and everything.It's really no different than a Christian faith based organization having a policy of not employing satanists to talk to their clients.

here is Joel at the Big Bike Bash, he went on a boat for the first time, it was amazing! I have to point out again that everyone at the event was superb with Joel and there was lots 'love'in the air. You dont have to be a Christian or in a church to experience love/care and friendship for one another and I realise this.
Bikes bring people together too!
I like being a Chrictian and my church rocks
family church[/url]

No actually, there are plenty of places where it's not illegal.I work in a place founded on atheist and humanist principles. anti-theism is in our charter and everything.It's really no different than a Christian faith based organization having a policy of not employing satanists to talk to their clients.

My Mosque example wasn't meant to be taken literally 😉

Where you works, it sounds reasonable to 'discriminate' on religious grounds. However, at a guess, most workplaces are probably not founded on atheist and humanist principles with anti-theism is in their charter.

I'm an atheist, but occasionally – usually whilst riding lush singletrack at dusk – I'll admit to being something of a pantheist…

And in those moments, I take this as my scripture.

"Where you works, it sounds reasonable to 'discriminate' on religious grounds. However, at a guess, most workplaces are probably not founded on atheist and humanist principles with anti-theism is in their charter. "

you can get an exemption, but it's quite hard work, but any organization can in theory do it, but you need to prove a definite need to

from the European equality and human rights commission…..

"Where there is a Genuine Occupational Requirement (GOR) to employ a person of a particular race, ethnic or national origin, certain exceptions from the regulations are permitted covering selection, promotion and training, but the employer must be able to show that there is a genuine need taking account of the type of work, or the context in which the work is carried out.

Essentially, the same principles apply to religious discrimination, but in limited circumstances, exemptions from the Regulations may apply where an employer needs to employ a person of a particular religion. There is also an exemption for 'employers with an ethos based on a religion or belief'. This allows employers to place advertisements for jobs requiring a person to be of specific religion as long as it can be justified, which is difficult. The religious requirement must be crucial to the post. Exemptions also apply for acts done in the interest of national security. "

There's also some stuff about similiar philosophical ethos and discrimination

but I can't find it right now…..:)

"Jeusu loves you, everyone else thinks your a **** MrWhoppit!
'pwned'
Chapter 2 vs 6 the Gospel according to LoulaBella "

Hmmm. Doesn't look much like a state of grace to me, but thanks for the insult.

An American comedian (I forget the name) once poked sharp metaphorical sticks at Xtians as part of his standup.

He related that after one of his shows, he was accosted by some Xtians in the carpark who said: "Hey Buddy! We don't like what you said about jesus". To which the comedian replied:

"Well, forgive me, then…"

Bearing in mind what I said about Leprechaunology, still no evidence, by the way.

This allows employers to place advertisements for jobs requiring a person to be of specific religion as long as it can be justified, which is difficult. The religious requirement must be crucial to the post. Exemptions also apply for acts done in the interest of national security.

Presumably, this is why Christian schools often state that being a Christian is not a job requirement, but supporting the Christian-based ethos of the school is.

Not quite work safe 😉

Mr Wopitt, Bill Hicks.

Dawkins may be a thorough aetheist, sure of his reasoning, and able to pick apart religious beliefs in a 1000 ways….but **** me he's a tedious man.

It quite interesting how many religious people try to group atheists into a sort of 'anti-religion', with Richard Dawkins as some sort of 'prophet'.

Is the concept of rational, individual thinking so lost to those that have fallen for the hoodoo of religion that that can't see fellow humans beings as anything other than another group of people rather than the individual, free-thinking people that they are?

I have read Dawkins but I find him throughly dislike-able. His approach is as preachy and evangelical as any outspoken religious person and therefore I pay it little heed.

To be honest though I wouldn't consider myself atheist. I don't bear it much thought in day to day life as my family and friends are what is important, not whether or not some sky fairy is watching over me or not. I would probably describe myself an apathetic agnostic as the concept of religion existing or not matters very little to me now days.

My view on does/does not god exist – Don't know, don't care.

yup, I could be wrong here, but I think some Catholic schools still insist on the Catholic teaching certificate as well, which is fair enough in context….

From our point of view, in an organization which actively promotes atheism and humanism, we'd have to seriously wonder why a committed Christian would want to work for us.:)

It quite interesting how many religious people try to group atheists into a sort of 'anti-religion', with Richard Dawkins as some sort of 'prophet'.

Is the concept of rational, individual thinking so lost to those that have fallen for the hoodoo of religion that that can't see fellow humans beings as anything other than another group of people rather than the individual, free-thinking people that they are?

One could say much the same thing about many coments made on here about religious people.

Don't know, don't care.

nicely succinct 🙂 One might describe a 'relationship' with another entity based on their being completely unresponsive to be dysfunctional – far better to concentrate on real world relationships and interactions – which is actually encouraged by most religions too.

From our point of view, in an organization which actively promotes atheism and humanism, we'd have to seriously wonder why a committed Christian would want to work for us.:)

They might be an Atheist Quaker or an Atheist Christian 🙂

One could say much the same thing about many coments made on here about religious people.

Except the concept of religion is not rational and therefore those that believe in religion are unrational.

Actually it was about Adam and Eve's disobedience and it was a fruit – it doesn't mention an apple.
You can't make someone love you so God gave us free-will so we could choose.

Erm you can if you are a God. If he gave me free will and I disobeyed him it is still his fault unless when I design a car without brakes it is it’s fault when it cant stop.

SFB
I wish – were I able to believe I could marry my g/f. Unfortunately it would require a lobotomy

I would have though she required a lobotomy just to openly admit to being your g/f 😉

Interestingy point on religious discrimination. Someone of any faith can demand that their child goes to a school of the same faith (paid by the state)- who will also transport the child there at the cost of the state. An atheist must just send their child to the nearest school even if it is a faith one. This is being challenged at European level. so atheists can be discriminated against as it is not a religion.

Jeusu loves you, everyone else thinks your a **** MrWhoppit!
'pwned'
Chapter 2 vs 6 the Gospel according to LoulaBella "

Hmmm. Doesn't look much like a state of grace to me, but thanks for the insult.

[/Quote]
I am fairly sure you started the insulting thread by suggesting her child needed paliative (for dying people FFS) care. Insensitive and crass in the extreme. It is the only point with which I agree with her you are being a c0ck.

Except the concept of religion is not rational and therefore those that believe in religion are unrational.

I wasn't refering to just the irrational part of the text I quoted.

True. Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things, but what does ever offer to go in religion's place? What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?

In my opinion none of this debate, not only here but in the wider cultural sense, would not be taking place without the publication of "The God Delusion". It is, again just my opinion, arguably the most significant single book of the early 21st century not only in it's writing style which is humourus, clear-sighted and informative by turns – but at least in the effect it has had in energising the debate worldwide.

Richard is often accused as being "preachy" or "strident" and so forth. These are interesting accusations when you consider that they are based on the written word, when there normal usage is to describe oral style?

Whenever I have seen him on his TV programmes (last night is a fine example) or his Youtube appearances, the only time I have seen him move from his normal stance of reasoned and polite debate is when he has to respond to some idiot asking him half-baked questions such as: "What if you're wrong?" whilst ignoring everything he's been speaking about for the previous 20 minutes.

The criticisms say more about the critics, I feel.

C S Lewis was a barely-functioning minnow, by comparison.

True. Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things, but what does ever offer to go in religion's place?

Why do you need something to fill religions 'place'?

Are you saying that without religion my life is missing something? Kind of arrogant that.

What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?

Are religions/the religious solely the source of compassion, charity and kindness?

True. Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things, but what does ever offer to go in religion's place? What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?

Suprised it took so long to get to this.
Not aware Dawkins tries to destroy anyhting, he only argues against irrational beliefs. and as the quote goes "if you dont want your beliefs laughed at then dont have such funny beliefs!"
The attributes you refer to to are not the property of religion and for every religiously motivated individual committing a kind act I am sure there is an atheist doing the same. The difference being the atheist does it from a sense of humanity and not for reward!
I know whos motivation I respect more.

"They might be an Atheist Quaker or an Atheist Christian "

they might well be, but the beliefs and ethos of both gel quite well with our ethos, so we may well let them play:)

anyway I'm off to work to proselytize my day away 🙂

What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?
You need teaching about them?

Junkyard:
"I am fairly sure you started the insulting thread by suggesting her child needed paliative (for dying people FFS) care. Insensitive and crass in the extreme. It is the only point with which I agree with her you are being a c0ck."

Thankyou.

You will note that 1: My subsequent response to the original critiques was to expand my (arguably, badly-put) point with an expanded explanation, followed by a correction from a helpful "threadee" with regard to the word "palliative". "Respite" being more appropriate and indeed, what I was actually getting at.

It is interesting that Loulabella subsequently went on to say that she has already taken these steps for herself so in essence, seems to agree with me.

Have a nice day.

You need teaching about them?

Ian you are right. Mine are instilled by my parents and the non religious environment I was brought up in.
I treat others as i would like to be treated, the Golden rule which was hijacked but actually predates Jesus!
I think its called being a "paid up member of the human race"

Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things

why do we have to resort to demagogues or prophets – can't we work it out for ourselves ? Whatever Dawkins may or may not say (and I can't say I've ever listened to him) only describes his ideas, not necessarily any other non believers'

In my opinion none of this debate, not only here but in the wider cultural sense, would not be taking place without the publication of "The God Delusion"

I find this far fetched. I don't need anyone else to tell me how to think

In my opinion none of this debate, not only here but in the wider cultural sense, would not be taking place without the publication of "The God Delusion".

Disagree.

I've never read Dawkins and have been a (part-time) evangelical atheist (or anti-christian) long before its publication.

I get drawn into the debate simply because many christians feel an obligation to proselytise. I thought the 'decade of evengelism' came to an end in y2000. Some of them don't know that. Personally I'd recommend a decade of quiet introspection for the christian church starting tomorrow.

I treat others as i would like to be treated

this is flawed, as not everyone wants the same things you want. Ideally one might treat people as they want to be treated – but that isn't necessarily easy to determine or might conflict with one's own preferences

I think its called being a "paid up member of the human race"

which before the privatisation/capitalisation of thought would have been free

I've come >< this close to running up and ticking the No box on the poster outside the church here, just to make me chuckle when I walk past it.

" In my opinion none of this debate, not only here but in the wider cultural sense, would not be taking place without the publication of "The God Delusion"

I find this far fetched. I don't need anyone else to tell me how to think "

Indeed you don't. Of course the debate existed before the book, but I would contend that the book's publication kicked it to a whole new level. I honestly don't remember this level of, media presence on the argument previously. I doubt Chris Hitchens, Sam Harris et al would now be so widely read where it not for "The God Delusion" being such a huge seller…

coffeeking – Member

I've come >< this close to running up and ticking the No box on the poster outside the church here, just to make me chuckle when I walk past it.

Me too. There's a massive advertising hoarding one near our house that went up a couple of weeks back. Had I a tin of black emulsion in the boot of the car when I first saw it I'd have done it. On reflection I'm too soft to do it, as one of the local PCSOs might have seen me setting up my ladders 🙂

Interestingly those bars on the Alpha course website opinion poll never seem to change -and why is there no "probably not" option at the Alpha course?

Mr Woppit it may have been an awakening for you but you shouldn't assume the same for others.
Atheist discussion has a proud and long history, albeit not made up of bestsellers.