Has anyone been on the Alpha Course?

a question to people 'with' religion;

what other abstract things do you believe in?

nessie/santa clause/fairies at the bottom of the garden?

A question to atheists/agnostics;

how would you treat someone (a friend perhaps) who told you that they ernestly believed, no, KNEW, that there were monsters under the bed?

?

sticks head in to see what fuss is about…………

just going to leave without saying out.

do you think the Catholic Church is prejudice against sinners ? I mean, all that stuff telling them about burning in Hell like.

I'm not too well up on their current thinking, but Jesus said "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" and told the parable about the prodigal son so there seems to be some wiggle room…

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor – I think what I said was true, of course whether a person is atheist or any other…there is in fact, in my view, something not totally human, if they leave out the transcendent. If they leave out an aspect of what I believe everyone was made for, which is, uh, a search for transcendent meaning, we call it God. Now if you say that has no place, then I feel that it is a diminishment of what it is to be a human, because to be human in the sense I believe humanity is directed because made by God, I think if you leave that out then you are not fully human.

hmmm, he talks about searching for 'transcendent meaning', and I'm not sure what that means, but then goes on to identify that with God. Now people may choose to spend time looking for the meaning of life if they wish, and I suppose for some that is their way of life, but I don't see what gives him the right to define the parameters for humanity. However we come to be here, we do have a limited choice to decide how we shall live and what we will strive for, and that may or may not include speculation about what happens afterwards, but I would suggest a sensible criterion for humanness is how we treat each other (and for that matter, other creatures) rather than what types of introspection we indulge in. Humans are diverse and I don't think it serves any practical purpose to delimit their membership of the race according to their philosophy (or absense of).

Guess the well known phrase or saying…

Cesare Borgia on a bike?

Some interesting stats/thoughts on religion and science: http://davidkeen.blogspot.com/2009/09/faith-and-darwin.html

Religions can make up any rules they want ………..no matter are absurd or ridiculous. It's their religion.

The Catholic church won't allow women to become priests, which suggests sexual prejudice. But unless you happen to be a female Catholic who wants to be a priest, then it's got **** all to do with you. And even then it would only be between you, and the Catholic church …… no one else.
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Who feel that they are entitled to have an opinion on things which don't in anyway concern them
Presumably I should not be bothered about say the BNP or anyone who oppresses or attacks Gays then as I am neither black nor gay?
I should have turned a blind eye to Nazi Germany I mean not like I am Jewish, Disabled or a gypsy.
As for Israel neither a Jew nor a Palestine shall I just ignore that also?

So if it is NOT actually personally happening to me at that moment in time I should have no opinion.
Seems a rather odd position to adopt in life.
Whilst they get to vote and have representation in the house of lords I will maintain that what they do does affect me as they have unelected representatives able to influence the law making process of this country.

Re the accusations that the atheists here are bullying the god-botherers, I'd agree that some of the wording could be toned down a bit to avoid causing offence. However it still remains a fact that if you find something ridiculous, a natural response is to ridicule it. A couple of hundred years ago, if you announced that you didn't believe in God (or even expressed the wrong type of belief) you could be executed for blasphemy. It's not really surprising that Dawkins and others are leading a bit of a backlash.

So you aren't bothered about the Catholic church, and other religious organisations, pressuring MPs to take a "pro-life" stance on abortion and to ban stem-cell research

Not at all. Those with an opposing opinion can do exactly the same.

I think some people need a reality check. According to you khegs, religion has being around for at least 300,000 years, so it isn't suddenly going to disappear. Banning religion is not an option. Even severe persecution is not effective – in fact, more likely to be counter-productive. Removing the need for religion as outlined by Marx, is not feasible under prevailing conditions.

Best then, to get used to it. And not waste your life filled with anger, bitterness, and resentment …… in what other people believe.

or the fact that the CofE get to have 26 bishops in the House of Lords?

Of course I'm not happy with the fact that the C of E get to have 26 bishops in the House of Lords.
But it is the constitution which I'm opposed to, not the religion.

Junkyard – if you feel that unhappy about the plight of gays within the established Christian churches, I suggest you set up your own Church, were gays are welcomed with open arms – I'm sure that gays from all over, will come and join your gay-friendly Church. You are of course completely free to do that ……… that is the beauty of religious freedom.

EDIT : "gay-friendly churches" which gays can freely join, already exist ……….. but hey, let's not 'nit-pick', eh ?

Does anyone else think ernie is still posting weak arguments intentionally to undermine the case he purports to be advocating ? I can't help feeling he's laughing his socks off as people attempt to take him at face value 🙂

As far as I can see no one has suggested persecution or banning religions but it seems to me that applying a degree of criticism serves to rein in its irrationality

I'm left wondering who is supposed to be exhibiting "anger, bitterness, and resentment" other than ernie, and I suspect his is feigned.

As far as I can see no one has suggested persecution or banning religions

I was suggesting possible alternatives to tolerating religion – are you too daft to figure that out ? Arguing against religion will not get rid of it or have you not figured that either, after 300,000 years ? Religion fulfils a human need, which as I said, cannot be removed under prevailing conditions. So those are your choices, you either put up with it or, well erm, ……… you put up with it. Arguing, banning, persecution, etc are not options.

No wait ………… you don't have to put up with it, you can be angry, bitter, and resentful………….. I forgot about that choice.

Does anyone else think ernie is still posting weak arguments intentionally

Just ignore them then …………. I won't be offended.

I have say, you appear to be putting quite a bit of time and effort arguing against 'weak arguments' …………. just don't do it mate.

Arguing against religion will not get rid of it or have you not figured that either, after 300,000 years ?

I'm not interested in getting rid of it – I was suggesting "curbing irrationality" as a goal. Obviously religion is a solace to some people and I wouldn't seek to deny it them.

I have say, you appear to be putting quite a bit of time and effort arguing against 'weak arguments'

but I like arguing ernie, so I'll have to take what I get 🙂

more tea vicar?

but I like arguing ernie, so I'll have to take what I get

You mean you can't find anyone with a 'strong' argument to argue against ………….. how sad for you simon 😐

.

Milk but no sugar please Mr Nutt.

You mean you can't find anyone with a 'strong' argument to argue against

well, obviously most people have better things to do…

BTW ernie, which brand of religion do you adhere to ? For the record I used to be a Catholic until such time as I was invited to think about the matter

Putting words into my mouth, ernie? 😉

I have never said anything about banning religion, it would be pointless stupid and counterproductive. It seems to provide some people with salace and support and there isn't anything wrong with that.

The role of the Church in public life, that is something that it is possible to try and do something about. Disestablishing the CofE, thats doable, removing public funding from faith schools, doable too, IMO.

Pointing and laughing when religious leaders comment on things they have no competency to comment on, that is my right, just because they are claiming some divine mandate shouldn't make them any more immune from criticism and ridicule than me, Simon, you, Dawkins, Gordon Brown, call me Dave or Ghandi. IMO religious leaders commenting on science is often about as relevant and useful as getting mackerel to comment on pop music.

Angry, bitter and resentful? Not usually, no more than Homeopathy, astrology and other purveyors of woo and pseudo-science annoy me.
On the other hand, if it is something that is causing material harm to people, like Matthias Rath does, or trying to effect my life because of their beliefs, then yeah that does make me angry and I will try and do something about it. To pick a trivial example, would you be happy forgoing your bacon sarnie, because pork isn't Kosher and Halal? Assuming you don't abide by those dietary restrictions because of your religion.

I dont belong to C of E or Catholic, Baptist, Methodist …. list goes on
Im not a fan of ritual or organised religion.
The church I go to is totally independant, self governing and is whats known as a free church. Our Minister doesnt wear a silly hat or robe, ummm jeans and shirt most of the time I think. We have a full rock band leading the music (awesome drummer). Out of a city full of large ornate imposing churches with locked doors, ours is open 24 hours a day. We do the most out reach work in our city especially feeding the homeless and running a womens refuge. We are the only church in the whole county which provides care for mentally and physically handicapped children (I run this) I cant go into most churches on a Sunday morning because Christians wouldnt like my sons weird noises interuppting there ceremony! Not very Christian eh? Well not at my church, everyone is welcome (regardless of sexual orientation,colour etc).
We work with the local hospice, support addicts (sex and drug mostly, I was the latter!). Most importantly my church is fun, yes its true. Most Sundays I end up in stitches (our Minister is hilarious).
Thats the other side of church, its not all hard wooden pews and snobby Christians and weird rituals, Im lucky to be 'free' and just get together with 500 people on a Sunday morning and have a great time. As well as work on projects throughout the week together.
Fair enough if you think what I belive is a load of old tosh, just wanted to point out that some churches are not what you expect, dont tar all of us with the same brush.

Oh to really wind you up, here I am getting baptised whilst I was out in Germany a couple of years ago. We had friends there who are Humanists (had a humanist wedding etc) they didnt 'argue' with me about my faith, same as I wouldnt give them crap for not 'believing'. We love each other and when you love you respect, end of.

No.

Day 5 on the stw forum……

At the risk of being set upon by more angry "sensitives" (and yes, I know I said I was "outtahere" but forgive me, I was tempted)… I'm glad you're having fun.

However, your beliefs are tosh.

I dont belong to C of E or Catholic, Baptist, Methodist …. list goes on

Ah I see …………… a Heretic then 😯

You're going to go through the gates of Hell and burn for eternity, quicker than the Atheists, LoulaBaby 😐

At least simonfbarnes has some sort of an excuse.

khegs – if the majority of the population feels that bacon sarnies should be banned, then I would be fine with that.
Mind you, my opinion might be coloured by the fact that I don't eat pig 💡

We have a full rock band leading the music (awesome drummer).

God rock never seems to quite get there, it's like non alcoholic beer.

vinnyeh – Member
Day 5 on the stw forum……

LOL ta
For dobbo

Lets Rock …well sort off

I give up 😥

Me too. 😀

I'm sincerely hoping that you are joking with loula, ernie.

Otherwise the comment about burning is pretty unpleasant, I couldn't care less if someone said it to me, but I don't believe in it, presumably Loula does.

On christian rock, I'm not exactly enamoured with it, but then again, I doubt that is much of a surprise, but as long as the people in church enjoy it, good on them.

"I'm sincerely hoping that you are joking with loula, ernie.

Otherwise the comment about burning is pretty unpleasant, I couldn't care less if someone said it to me, but I don't believe in it, presumably Loula does."

I just got this image of a dog chasing it's own tail…

Interesting though- does Loula believe in a "hell"? If so, can she tell us where it is and if so, how come the location hasn't been published yet? 😀

I couldn't care less if someone said it to me, but I don't believe in it, presumably Loula does.

But all is not lost khegs. LoulaBella has time to repent and save her soul ……….. she need not fear 8)

Ernie you really are bored aren't you.
can you not just e-mail rude boy and save us from this troll?

Some music made by Christians is great – I love this album, the version of "He Who Would Valiant Be" is a dancefloor banger!

http://trunkrecords.greedbag.com/buy/resurrection-the-amplified-bible-0/

Loulabella, you seem to be making out that being a Christian comes with no strings attached. That might be true for a few lucky people, but if that's really the way things are with your church, you're probably in the minority.

I really distrust "cuddly" Christians who attempt to update their way of worship in a bid to appeal to more people. My mum was a teacher at a school that was basically taken over by Christians with a style of worship that led her to describe them as "happy clappies". They were so fervent that their beliefs should be incorporated into the way the school was run, and displayed such favouritism towards their fellow born-agains, that the "normal" teachers there mostly ended up leaving – my mum, who is not religious but is extremely moderate and respectful in her views, basically ended up being forced out and came close to having a nervous breakdown.

you really are bored aren't you.

But presumably, not as bored as the wally who asked me if I was 'joking'.

No mate, I meant it. LoulaBella really is "going to burn in Hell". What a stupid dumbass question to ask ffs.

And the suggestion that she might be upset that I've told her she's going to Hell, what am I ………someone who's religious views she deeply admires and respects ? ffs

Jedi anyone?

I doubt many are taking your views seriously and I doubt you are. For someone who told me to allow religions to do as they please why the sudden change to condemn Loula Belle to hell surely she has just chjosen her won religion and what has it got to do with you . Re read your post particularly the bit where you said they can make up their own rules for themselves and the bit where if you are unaffected you should have no view Ernie. I believe you also called somehow an hypocrite mmmmm

Nice trolling Ernie .

For someone who told me to allow religions to do as they please why the sudden change to condemn Loula Belle to hell surely she has just chjosen her won religion and what has it got to do with you

But ernie is absolutely correct – any of the various subdivisions or sects of Christianity thinks that all the others are damned, exactly the same as atheists. Any sect that doesn't worship in the same way as you is heretical. Surely that's a basic point of religion that everyone must have noticed – the Crusades, etc.

Hence my question yesterday, how does any Christian, any religious person, know that they are worshipping the correct god?

Interesting though- does Loula believe in a "hell"? If so, can she tell us where it is and if so, how come the location hasn't been published yet?

You don't need to believe in any sort of 'hell' to understand the idea of 'heaven'.

But ernie is absolutely correct – any of the various subdivisions or sects of Christianity thinks that all the others are damned, exactly the same as atheists. Any sect that doesn't worship in the same way as you is heretical. Surely that's a basic point of religion that everyone must have noticed – the Crusades, etc.

I think you're wrong on all counts there, with a very few minor exceptions, which while having Abrahamic origins generally don't don't want to stand up and be counted as Christian, no matter how you might label them. Modern day Christianity is very ecumenical.

I treat people's personal religious beliefs (or lack of) and life choices, with a respect which I don't necessarily extend to other considerations

Why should religion be singled out for special treatment just because it can't be proved, as opposed to arguing with some one about politics?

Religion has had a "oh, can't mess with that, its religion[/]" and religioon poking its nose in every part of our lives (want treatment for parkinsons?…lets ask a nonce in a dress and leave the doctors and scientists opinions to last)

This is the crux of the issue I feel.

SSP

Modern day Christianity is very ecumenical.

All that blod shed to find that it's all the same to God. 🙄

I was suggesting possible alternatives to tolerating religion – are you too daft to figure that out ? Arguing against religion will not get rid of it or have you not figured that either, after 300,000 years ? Religion fulfils a human need, which as I said, cannot be removed under prevailing conditions. So those are your choices, you either put up with it or, well erm, ……… you put up with it. Arguing, banning, persecution, etc are not options.

I agree with SFB however just to take issue with a couple of points.
Religion mutates and the current social zeitgeist determines what we get. Burning heretics isnt really done anymore and several countries in recent years have legislated religion out of any decision making role. This is the most important part of this whole thread and my mention of it has not been picked up.
Religion needs to be argued against because it is harmful.
What is the human need that cannot be removed?

600 !!!!!

may the force be with you 😀