Has anyone been on the Alpha Course?

is there a place of worship/belonging for stoic hedonsists?

Isn't that Ibiza?

No, I didn't think all the comments weren't offensive (and I said that) but this is a public forum and unfortunately there will always be people who do just throw insults – that doesn't mean that all the comments were insulting or abusive, mine included (despite being included in BD's list…)

Bikingcatastrophe – Member

is there a place of worship/belonging for stoic hedonsists?

Isn't that Ibiza?

What, like God is a DJ sort of thing? 🙂

I think Mr Woppit is Richard Dawkins.

that doesn't mean that all the comments were insulting or abusive, mine included (despite being included in BD's list…)

Which one was yours?

no but do you honestly think none of them are offensive?

Theres an old saying (dont know the source)

"If you dont like your beliefs being laughed at you shouldnt have such funny beliefs"

I think Mr Woppit is Richard Dawkins.

Nah, Dawkins is far more reasonable, unless to happen to be a young earth/intelligent design pushing fundie, or a c*ck like Cormac Murphy-O'Connor

Been scanning this one periodically and I think for those who are protecting that it has not been rude or insensitive are being a tad disingenuous. For those that have a faith, of whatever variety, it is a personal thing. Many of those who do have a faith have had experiences that are not easily explained and would appear to fit with their beliefs. For example, it is not unusual these days in Africa to hear of people being raised from the dead after apparently days of being "dead like". I'm sure there will be sceptics who won't believe or will find some scientific explanation. Maybe there is. Maybe there isn't. But to start calling people stupid, impressionable, brainless is not really a very rational argument is it? Maybe it is something that you cannot suscribe to but does that give you permission to disrespect someone else? As someone else suggested, perhaps you are not so very sure of your own beliefs or yet found a way to deal with your anger issues. Or perhaps, discovering that maybe when left to our own devices society struggles to develop a set of principles to live by that help us to understand what is an acceptable way to behave with other people, what constitutes respect and tolerance. If we summed up the STW collective vision of values from the past few weeks it would include:

Nutting someone
Weeing in shoes because someone did something you don't like
Accusing people of believing in fairy tales because they believe something that doesn't fit with your personal agenda or beliefs
It's ok to keep something that has been sent to you in error (aka stealing)
etc

Ok, so some of it is a bit tongue in cheek, but not exactly inspiring stuff is it?

And then, back to the OP. Sure, why not give it a go. What's the worst thing that will happen? You lose an evening a week for a few weeks. In return you get a free meal and a chance to ask interesting questions and see what sort of answers you get. Is the Alpha course a vehicle for converting people? In a way, yes it is, of course it is. But the goal of the Alpha course is to give people an open forum to discuss the issues that crop up in life and to see what Christianity has to say about it. If you don't think you are interested in that then don't go. Just like the TV. If there's something on you don't like then switch channels or switch off. Not exactly difficult is it?

Anyway, I have fed the troll for now. 😉

I think it was inevitable that this thread would turn into a debate on the wider merits of religion, but lot of those comments quoted by BD were made in relation to the OP, i.e. what do people think of the Alpha Course. Here's a quote from one of the "offensive" people:

let's be clear about Alpha. It is not a service to society provided by the church to allow us to think neutrally about the big issues. It is an evangelical tool. If it didn't have a positive conversion rate it would have been dropped long ago. It's no better that a scientologists 'personality test' or time-share sales (in the hereafter).

That sounds spot on to me, along with the description of them as "bottom feeders". Read the Jon Ronson article where the Alpha guy is bragging about how many prison ministries they have. Religion has an immediate, easy appeal to people who are in difficult circumstances and that's why stuff like Alpha gets peoples' backs up – it offers a panacea but no guarantee of real support.

Mine was the last one about funny clothes IIRC

That sounds spot on to me

I agree. It has the beautiful merit of addressing the question actually asked, without calling anyone a fool. 🙂

For example, it is not unusual these days in Africa to hear of people being raised from the dead after apparently days of being "dead like". I'm sure there will be sceptics who won't believe or will find some scientific explanation. Maybe there is. Maybe there isn't. But to start calling people stupid, impressionable, brainless is not really a very rational argument is it?

Leaving aside those pesky scientists and their habit of explaining stuff!
There are lots of "things" "heard" from Africa particularly regarding black magic etc. A considerable amount of them involve hurting people! Are these people "impressionable" or "brainless" or is it OK to call some people who partake in barbaric rituals these things but not those that have similarly unprovable beliefs?
I wont comment on your "rational argument" comment, maybe you want to re-think it.

Removed, as I promised myself I'd never get involved with one of these threads again.

Not sure I understand what I need to be rethinking. Calling people stupid is not a rational argument. And neither is just saying "no it isn't" – to quote a well known sketch about arguments. And I'm also not quite sure where your black magic comment comes into the mix. Maybe a different conversation? I don't recall writing anything about black magic or barbaric rituals.

is it OK to call some people who partake in barbaric rituals these things but not those that have similarly unprovable beliefs?

I think you have pretty much hit the nail on the head there surfer ……..although I'm not entirely certain you meant to.

The OP didn't say :

"I'm considering attending an Alpha course, it will 'involve hurting people in barbaric rituals', what do you all think of that ?"

I think its all become a bit surreal!

Surely people should take critical comments about their beliefs as a test of faith rather than an insult ? After all, if one can prove it, it stops being a belief, so there's bound to be scope for questioning.

People call me stupid and worse all the time but I never take it to heart – it's quite funny :o)

tolerance, great word often used, seldom practiced and always expected of others not ourselves.

People call me stupid and worse all the time but I never take it to heart – it's quite funny :o)

Though this thread has been tedious in the extreme, your comments – or, at least, some of them – SFB have been rather interesting.

Just for a bit of balance, like. You brainless, brainwashed idiot with immaginary friends. 😉

But the goal of the Alpha course is to give people an open forum to discuss the issues that crop up in life and to see what Christianity has to say about it.

It's not. The goal of the Alpha course is to convert people to christianity.

To claim otherwise is just plain wrong.

p.s. Bear Grylls is a fraud.

brainwashed idiot with immaginary friends

now hang on, I didn't say you could slag off my friends 🙁

I'm still fervently waiting for ernie to tell us why his beliefs are superior and what metric he applies…

Surely people should take critical comments about their beliefs as a test of faith rather than an insult?

There's a difference between critical comments about beliefs and name calling.

People call me stupid and worse all the time but I never take it to heart

You haven't figured out that not everyone is the same then ?

That's why I'm happy to call you a ****, despite not dreaming of calling some other people that (in this case, I think you're a thick ****)

I find the clue is in how people behave. Generally speaking, people who are likely to take offence, don't dish it out – LoulaBella for example.

Of course there are always exceptions ….. if I recall correctly, Mr Woppit complained on this thread that someone had been abusive towards him.

But generally speaking the rule applies ………. see if you can figure it out SFB

oh, and I was thinking about the power of prayer over dinner, and wondered if it might actually work more or less as claimed. Perhaps if you have enough faith either in god/s, or prayer itself or whatever, something may happen. I find psychokinesis somewhat more probable than gods, as at least it's being done by someone I can see, even if the mechanism is unclear.

don't dish it out – LoulaBella for example.

Not quite true, strictly speaking.

There's a difference between critical comments about beliefs and name calling.

but why should this topic be different to any other where we feel free to poke fun ?

You haven't figured out that not everyone is the same then ?

given that my last remark to you was that perhaps your beliefs were best suited to you but that people are different people I think we can say that I do know that.

I understand that some people are more sensitive than others, but really that's their responsibilty. If they choose to be insulted they only have themselves to blame, when they could just as easily laugh it off, or turn the other cheek as recommended by that Jesus bloke.

I seem to remember her calling MrWoppit a c–t (fair enough IMO, although he's posted a lot of comments that I would agree with in this thread), and she's also implied that all atheists are either hypocrites for using a word they don't mean, or have crap sex. Which is ironic, because if I wanted to put the crimp in my sex life, religion would come a close second behind moving back in with my parents. 🙂

Not quite true, strictly speaking.

OK, choose another example if you wish…….. will SimonRalli do ? I wouldn't dream of insulting him.

OK, choose another example if you wish…….. will SimonRalli do ? I wouldn't dream of insulting him

It wasnt my wish!

consider the lilies

surfer – Member

I think its all become a bit surreal!

Something else we can agree on surfer. I find it completely unreal that this pointless thread (apart from the OP which was a legit question) has in 3 days, surpassed in size, petesgaff's thread.

I find it completely unreal that this pointless thread

how can it be pointless if people post so enthusiastically ? And however unsubstatiated our beliefs (or failings to believe) may be, they do strongly influence how we live and behave

I find it completely unreal that this pointless thread (apart from the OP which was a legit question)

So if no-one had replied it would be less pointless?

I'm annoyed that the "swivel eyed loons" tag has been taken down, by the way.

Bear Grylls – a fraud?

Surely not? What is your evidence?

But he said we should follow him into the wilderness?

Out of interest which is more deplorable, some 'nasty words' said by a few 'atheists' on an internet thread or the millions of people who have been killed through the ages by people fighting over their sort of fairy tale being the right one and someone else's being wrong?

I'm struggling to think of an occasion when a few 'nasty words' has led to the deaths of millions but I'm sure I could pull out a few examples of people's unflinching devotion to some religious clap trap adding to an already impressive body count.

Ultimately this is the reason that I detest organised religion, the lives that are taken in its name. Having dealt with the consequences of people believing that they were 'protecting' the christians of Europe (which I considered myself one at the time, having been brought up CofE) from invasion by slaughtering innocent civilians who happened to be muslims in a place called Gornji Vakuf I 'lost' my faith, completely and utterly.

People have argued to me that religion/religious people do a lot but is it stuff that wouldn't happen without religion? Do atheists not give to charity? Are atheists not 'good neighbours'? Yes religion/religious people do good but the religions they believe in are often used as a reason to do so much bad, and considering what a vicious and war-like species we can be having another excuse to kill each other is hardly a good thing.

When all is said and done having faith is a good thing, but that faith doesn't need to be directed towards some make-believe omnipresent being. That faith would be better directed towards your fellow man, your family and your friends. Make the most of this life rather than spend it racking up credits towards one you believe is awaiting you when you die.

Not quite true, strictly speaking.

OK, choose another example if you wish…….. will SimonRalli do ? I wouldn't dream of insulting him.

Eh? Sorry to be dim, but I am genuinely not too sure why my name has been raised! Is someone saying I insulted them, or is someone saying I may have taken offence?

If someone does feel offended by anything I have written, I do sincerly apologise. As far as I can see I feel I have raised issues of holes in the current state of knowledge of science while still fully supporting the biological evidence for evolution, as opposed to pointing out anything personally. Anyone who knows me would know I would feel terrible about making a personal comment about someone.

When all is said and done having faith is a good thing

disagree – instead of relying on guesswork, use observation, deduction and experiment. Have faith in yourself perhaps as you can be reasonably sure you are actually there.

Eh? Sorry to be dim, but I am genuinely not too sure why my name has been raised! Is someone saying I insulted them, or is someone saying I may have taken offence?

I think you were being held up as an example of a reasonable poster who wouldn't say anything to insult anyone else. 😀

Simon, you are being identified as someone who does not dish out, and does not deserve, abuse of any kind. It is a form of compliment I think. 🙂

Eh? Sorry to be dim, but I am genuinely not too sure why my name has been raised!

I gave you as an example of someone who I wouldn't dream of insulting. If you couldn't figure that out, then you obviously are dim …… you daft docile div.

Oh bollox………….now look what you made me do 😐

As regards whether or not God (in any form) exists, the reality is that if He does then we will only know for sure when we die, and if there's no life after death then we'll never know.

On one hand all logical, scientific evidence does back up the athiests' case. On the other hand the fact that billions of people over the millenia have had faith does possibly point to the existence of superior being, and that religion is in essence mankind trying to interpret something he can never fully understand.

So having put myself on a fence in the middle of the debate, I'd then like to say that one thing that does strike me about this thread (and others like it) is that invariably many of the athiests descend into childish name calling and abuse. All the comments about "brainless", "fairy tales", "easily led", "can't think for themselves", "imaginary friends" etc. It's as if they have the need to be abusive to someone, and religious folk are an easy target. I also suspect they get quite annoyed by the fact the vast majority of religious folk won't take the bait, and refuse to be offended by them.

All the Christian (and Muslim) people I know are quite happy to have their views and beliefs questioned. However they in turn don't tend to descend to the infantile level of some of their abusers. I have to admit that seeing the approach taken by the two sides (tolerant understanding versus silly insults) does make me wonder who exactly has the better life. I'd hate to hate like that, if you see what I mean.