Grrr Rubbish doctor rant

This is an unfair assumption.

Why is that assumption not fair? Given the general difficulty people express, here and in other places, in getting an appointment, it would be reasonable to assume that GPs operate at 100% capacity. If they didn't then we'd all be able to phone the doctor and get an appointment whenever we like. On available evidence this doesn't seem to generally be the case.

surfer – that form filling took up two appointment slots.

Is an appointment slot really only 5 minutes ? Good God! My GP spent double that enquiring about how good the skiing/hotel/nightlife was before eventually getting round to having a look at my injured leg.

woody – GPs vary but 5 or 7 mins is the norm. some work on 10 but that is rare IME

I believe the government target time is ten minutes per patient.

So by the time they've looked at your notes before you come in, exchanged pleasantries and done any paperwork after you leave, it is estimated to leave around six minutes per patient.

My GP did my Ironman medical for free, though it was arranged at his convenience.

Really ! No problem at my place

Yeah ours is shite, it's apparently earmarked to be sorted soon. That's that they told me in the summer anyway. Sorry everyone work chat.

Actually come to think of it Woody you owe me £30 for the reference for the same form.

surfer – that form filling took up two appointment slots. Thats two appointment slots not available for NHS patients.

From the above it would appear to be one slot!

The OP is an NHS "customer" therefore the visit is valid, after all it is a service that GP's offer and not Nurses or administrators?

Therefore by definition the visit does not disadvantage anybody else in the "queue"
This leaves us back to the OP. Is it fair to subjectively charge the fee. IMO no.

Cheque's in the post Drac but I seem to remember we negotiated a 1/2 of lager instead 😉

5 mins per patient, 10 minutes per patient. Legal liabilities. This is peoples life, breathing and all and it's been summarised in numbers.

What a load of crap. I'm so happy I no longer have to put up with the NHS and the people who defend it.

The OP is an NHS "customer" therefore the visit is valid, after all it is a service that GP's offer

Not on the NHS it's not.

My GP might also offer to mend shoes and cut keys, but I wouldn't expect the NHS to cover it, even though I am a "customer".

This is peoples life, breathing and all and it's been summarised in numbers.

Not very nice is it? What utopian dream healthcare system are you part of that doesn't do this?

You are paying for the professional opinion of someone who;
– has undergone 5 years of medical training
– likely to have worked countless hours of overtime and not been paid for them as a house officer
– Who has then entered into a GP training programme – another 5 years,
– And paid may thousands of pounds of their own money to sit RCGP exams.

And (whilst we are at it) unless they are a very senior partner are likely to see much less than £100k

They are filling out a form on the basis of a private consultation, to fulfill the event organisors Insurance requirements.

Although you could argue charging £85 is not very charitable, you could say a GP's charity has been done. Financially they owe you, and the charity nothing.

If only an accountant, lawyer, surveyor or estate agent could have filled that form out for you, it would have been much cheaper

Cheque's in the post Drac but I seem to remember we negotiated a 1/2 of lager instead

Damn! I'm a cheap date.

What a load of crap. I'm so happy I no longer have to put up with the NHS and the people who defend it.

Good for you. Me I'm glad of it haven't recently been a user of it I was rather thankful for all what they did.

I love threads like this, it reminds me just how lucky I am with my GP 🙂

TandemJeremy – Member

The GP is perfectly entitled to charge for this. It is a private consultation, NHS does not provide these certificates.

I didn't pick up from the OP, that there was any suggestion that the GP wasn't perfectly entitled to charge.

What I did pick up however, was that convert was disappointed that his wife's GP didn't feel able to contribute to his wife's sponsored swim to raise money for medical research, ie, provide 10 minutes of his or her time for free. I understand his disappointment.

convert also expressed disapproval at the rather large sum of £85. I also understand his disapproval, despite the fact that GrahamS suggests this is simular to what a GP would charge the NHS for a 12 minute double appointment.

Which brings me to the conclusion that GrahamS's wife charges the NHS somewhere in the region of £425 per hour to see NHS patients. Clearly this adds up to a very tidy weekly wage – by anybody's standards. And even after deducting costs such as electricity and the rather low wages of a doctor's receptionists. Which suggests that 10 minutes donated free of charge, could very easily be absorbed by a GP.

As I say, I sometimes forget that the medical profession can attract those who are more motivated by greed and status – despite the obvious commitment of many. Perhaps the solution would be to slap a sensible limit on the present staggering earning potential of GPs, and dissuade those with suspect motives. And yes, they can all bugger off to the United States, if they don't like here……..after they have paid off all their education/training costs
of course.

mugsys_m8 – Member

…………….. I'm so happy I no longer have to put up with the NHS and the people who defend it.

so what utopian health care system do you use? Where do you live?

despite the fact that GrahamS suggests this is simular to what a GP would charge the NHS for a 12 minute double appointment.

Not at all. I simply asked what a GP practise could expect for two appointments, since that could obviously be a factor in the fee charged. I didn't know the answer. Another factor could be the indemnity cost to the GP. And another could be that charging a suitably pitched fee avoids her being swamped with such requests.

My wife isn't a GP by the way. She's a hospital-based specialist registrar.
She's rewarded well for her job, yes (though not in the ranges suggested in this thread).
Like many doctors I know, she thoroughly deserves it. 🙂

You need a medical certificate to do the Roc D'Azur. The first year I did it in 1998 they had a caravan where you turn up and the doctors would give you a quick examination for a £5 and give you a certificate. The next year we turned up and there was no caravan, the organisers gave us the name of a local doctor who we called. We cycled over to his office and he turned up a few mintues later, my three mates went in while I waited outside with the bikes as we had no locks. After a few minutes, my mates came out and I started towards the door. "Don't bother, we have got your certificate". You have got to love the French.

….charging a suitably pitched fee avoids her being swamped with such requests.

What……."swamped" by people wanting to raise cash for medical research ? 😕

We're not talking here about a medical certificate for an insurance company 'cause someone's exotic 1st class cruise to the Bahamas went tits up.

This isn't, imo anyway, a discussion about whether GPs should be charge for their services, but whether it is OK for them to cane one of their own NHS patients, for whom they already get paid for (whether or not they see them) for £85 for a ten minute medical questionnaire so that they can raise money for medical research …….let's stick to the OP and the sentiments behind it.

She's a hospital-based specialist registrar.
She's rewarded well for her job

Actually I was fairly unimpressed with the figures for basic pay provided in your link – I hope her money is made up to a level which adds up to fair bit more than that. Otherwise it certainly seems to strengthen the case for putting a ceiling on the mega-bucks a few GPs are alleged to be earning.

What……."swamped" by people wanting to raise cash for medical research ?

No swamped in general by folk wanting third-party forms filling in (medical certificates, fitness to fly/drive, insurance, visas, sick lines etc).

I agree it would have been nice for the GP in question to waive the fee, as it was for charity. But as others said she may not have even had that option.

whether it is OK for them to cane one of their own NHS patients, for whom they already get paid for

Any doctor who does any private work could be accused of the same.

already get paid for whether or not they see them

I don't know how GP Practises are paid for in the NHS, but I understand that number of patients seen is a factor. I don't believe they are paid for people they don't see. But I could be wrong.

I was fairly unimpressed with the figures for basic pay provided in your link

indeed. It's a respectable amount but no where near what was being talked about.

I hope her money is made up to a level which adds up to fair bit more than that

That's the standard basic pay grade. She currently gets a 50% loading on top of that, which is a banding based on how many hours over the European Working Time Directive they are made to work.

In common with many doctors, she'd happily work less hours and be paid less, but it isn't really an option.

s.p.adshead wrote

Although you could argue charging £85 is not very charitable, you could say a GP's charity has been done. Financially they owe you, and the charity nothing.

In response to a question, Liam Byrne (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department of Health replied:-
The latest year for which figures are available show that in 2004–05 ………..In the period between entry to medical school and full registration, it is estimated that training a doctor costs between £200,000 and £250,000. Doctors generally continue training after full registration. As the duration and nature of post-registration training varies greatly and as service and training costs are closely related it is not possible to provide a meaningful estimate of the total cost of training.

So you have to pay a few grand to sit exams 🙄 and forgive me for questioning someone sitting on such a high pedestal, but I would suggest that it wouldn't go amiss for a doctor/GP to show a little discretion in how much they choose to charge a patient (tax payer) who is giving up their time to raise money for a medical research charity.

Come May the 7th,when Blaircameronthatcher looka-likey may get in the seeds will be germanted for the privatisation of Gp services and medical centres.

Watch this space,you read it here first.

The fact is that most traditional general practices are actually private businesses owned and run by the GP partners. Since the inception of the NHS is 1948 we have had a state-run monopoly which has contracted with these private businesses to provide heathcare to entitled UK residents. Anything which falls outside of that contract with the NHS is private practice for which the GPs are entitled to charge. The BMA is a trade union and does not set the fees absolutely (it isn't allowed to) but does produce guidance for its members.

Many of these forms are attempts by the originating organisation to shift some liability from themselves on to the individual or on to the individual's medical practitioner. It may only be "filling in a form", but that carries a significant liability for a doctor in our litigious society, one which they are required to insure themselves against.

Finally, yes many (senior) doctors are quite well paid but don't forget that one only gets there after working hard through school to get the grades to get a place at medical school, and then spending 5 years running up debt as a student and then 10+ years of working as a junior doctor. In my time as a junior I worked in some jobs where 80 hour weeks were the average. Compulsory overtime over and above the first 40 hours was paid at one third of the standard hourly rate (not time and a third, just one third), meaning that I earned less per hour than the hospital cleaner for my nights, weekends and bank holidays. During those years as a junior doctor in order to climb the greasy pole we are required to sit various professional exams, which cost us thousands of pounds. And to top it off when we become senior doctors we find ourselves in an environment where our working lives are subjected to constant interference by managers doing the bidding of politicians who don't have the sense they were born with.

And you said it was only £85? Bargain.

Rant over, thank you.

I don't believe they are paid for people they don't see. But I could be wrong.

I'm fairly certain that they receive 'an' income dependent on the total number of patients they have – whether or not they see them. But of course I could be wrong.

.

…..it would have been nice for the GP in question to waive the fee, as it was for charity. But as others said she may not have even had that option.

.

Ah….good old "bureaucracy"……you wouldn't want to keep that out of the health care system now would ? ! 😀

"Sorry guv, I'd love to do that, but it's more than me job's worth. Rules is rules mate ….. ain't they ?"

My GP would not have charged £85…….no way.

how about all the smack heads that get the methodone for free?

Unfortunately, as I'm not a member of the BMA I can't access the recommended fee page but I would suspect that £85 is higher than the guideline.

Really interesting thread. I am not a GP and I have no complaints about the pay at my current grade, mind you I qualified 25 years ago and there were times when I wasn't so impressed. I do tend to do the certificates at no cost to the patient but if an organisation or a government body is offering a fee I take it. I personally feel uncomfortable about shifting peoples' hard earned cash directly from their pocket to mine – don't know whether it is my none commercial nature or the indoctrination of 30 years in the NHS. Mind you I only get one a month to fill in not 5 a day.

BMA fees are, I think, available without needing to log on to their web site.

To save you the trouble the fee recommended for filling in a proforma with no examination ( 20 minutes ) is 75ukp whereas a more detailed report, still without an examination, would be 113ukp so the GP concerned was certainly within both their rights and nationally agreed guidance.

Christalmighty Gasman Jim, after that rant I almost feel like sending you a fiver in the post…………………I said almost 😉

ps. your fellow gasmen were most enjoyable part of my training – wonderful warped senses of humour 😆

Nice post ratadog. I can see from your obvious mistake, that's it's been a long day……..well done fella 😉

Hey Woody, nice thought. Fortunately there is one place sure to soothe the frayed nerves of an NHS weary gasman, and that's where I've been this afternoon.

Too long a day.

Those who want to check should google – BMA Fees Guidance where no agreement applies – although frankly if you have some paint drying nearby you may want to direct your attention there instead.

Ah….good old "bureaucracy"……you wouldn't want to keep that out of the health care system now would

My point was that she may not be a senior partner in the practise, so may not have any say over what charges are levied.

Not so much bureaucracy as just doing what her boss says.

how about all the smack heads that get the methodone for free?

See that does definitely come under "clinical need".

No, GPs do not get paid for simply having patients on their practice list. They get paid based upon the care they give to their patient, especially those with Chronic illnesses such as Asthma, Epilepsy, CHD etc ensuring they are seen regularly, they are given disease management and medication management advice. The practices where GPs are paid circa £100k are usually extremely well managed by a practice manager keeping on top of targets.

£85 seems a bit steep but as others have pointed out, it took two normal appointments to complete the examination. The Health Service as a whole is under huge financial strain at the moment, extra income from this kind of work is probably welcome at the moment in most practices.

GPs do not get paid for simply having patients on their practice list.

Mmm, I didn't know that. I think I'll book an appointment – I don't see why my GP should lose out just 'cause I'm healthy.

Mind you, that might explain the "haven't seen you in a while" comments 😉

…… now that I know, I think I'll wind him up about it next I see him ……. cheers 8)

Another Doctors fee – £147 for their permission to get my father cremated.

Yeah, I mentioned that one earlier druidh. AFAIK two different doctors have to look over the notes etc and make sure they agree on the cause of death.

Sorry about your dad 🙁

Sorry to hear about your dads death,i know exactly what its like.

two different doctors have to look over the notes etc and make sure they agree on the cause of death.

That would certainly explain the cost. Although I'm mystified as to why the NHS can't carry the costs. Presumably there isn't a whole lot of choice in the matter, and chasing up distraught relatives for cash seems fairly heartless.
Plus as I understand, the aim is to generally encourage cremations.